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@ Roffles :
I don't see the contradiction between chaoser abstaining and then being against day 1 no lynch. In his abstain post, he said he was abstaining "for now.". Yeah, he doesn't change his vote, but all things considered, him abstaining is less suspicious to me than if he had voted for Hyperbola.
Your post summaries from here use some really leading and biased language that I do not think accurately reflects the content of chaoser's posts. Anybody reading those summaries should notice this. These are the important parts of what he said:
I'm not 100% clear on my vote yet but I'm watching BrownBear for now. And I also think we should vote double lynch. It's going to be 52 hours till the next lynch give or take, you guys don't think we'll have more than enough information then?
and then, later:
Also, I'm going to put in my vote for Subversion. So far I don't know how I feel about BrownBear. At first I wanted to vote him. He's been playing badly and didn't do anything day one...<snip>...Subversion's little mafia mistake statement is just weird all in all and was part of that voting block (everyone's already mentioned this) so I'll put my vote on him for now but I'll have to see. Still a full day left.
Is there anything wrong with changing your mind after new developments within the thread? Players do it all the time. He even says that he's not sure about keeping his vote on subversion, and that he'll "have to see." It doesn't sound at all to me like he's trying to "push a bandwagon," as you put it.
Regarding the accusations forwarded against chaoser, i often found them so muddled and based in strange logic that i wasn't even sure what he was being accused of.
All in all, this whole focus on chaoser seems like townie infighting to me. I'm not going to vote for him.
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On July 22 2010 05:33 Roffles wrote:
Subversion's little mafia mistake statement is just weird all in all and was part of that voting block (everyone's already mentioned this) so I'll put my vote on him for now but I'll have to see. Still a full day left.
There, you outlined it yourself. You acknowledge that his little mafia mistake is just weird, yet you still cast your vote for him. It isn't something that Mafia is stupid enough to slip up on, yet you're fueling the bandwagon even though you acknowledge that it's weird and unusual, not necessarily harmful in all.
It wasn't actually part of the voting block. It was hours after the voting block that was discussed.
I can't believe people still want to vote for me over one stupid remark tbh. The only information you gain by lynching me is "oh, yeah, guess everyone was right, he was just being noob".
Despite so much more detailed and clever analysis on other players, people still want to vote for me?
There seems to be much better things to go on.
The reason I didn't vote for chaoser was because of his "test". He said he's going to "test something that may bite him in the ass or may work" and his test was voting for me. While I didn't know wtf he was on about, the whole idea of this test and the general lameness of the post, while sounding stupid, at the same time sounded sincere to me. I don't think he's scum, but I may be naive in that belief.
Although, I think its time he tells all of us wtf that little "test" was supposed to be about?
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
This is the stupidest thing, pretty much ever.
Is there evidence against chaoser? Nobody can really explain what it is. Is there evidence against DTA? Hardly. Is there evidence against Subversion? Yes, there is.
1) Subversion voted at the last minute to lynch someone who's bandwagon was pathetic from the start, and really had nothing behind it. But the real significance of that vote, was that it saved someone else (youngminii). We didn't know about it at the time, because BM's count was off, but the mafia (assuming for a moment that youngminii is red) would clearly have a much more accurate count. They might've assumed that BM's vote count would be a cover, but at any rate they needed to make sure to save their own member.
2) Subversion's post, in which he commented on how well the mafia were doing was (a) not true, and (b) something that I don't think I've ever heard anyone innocent ever say in a game of mafia. That's something I can see a new mafia member thinking a townie would say, but that's not something a townie would actually say.
Furthermore, lynching Subversion just makes plain sense from a town perspective. A whole host of people have put their reputations on the line to save Subversion. Nobody has said anything in chaoser's defense. Nobody has said anything in DTA's defense. They've been left to defend themselves, and, apparently to some people that looks guilty.
What does that mean? Aside from being absurdly suspicious, if we lynch Subversion, then we gain a ton of information. If Subversion flips red, then we catch youngminii right off the bat. citi.zen has been defending Subversion nearly every post he gets, albeit a little more subtlety. Almost everyone in the game is on record saying something about Subversion, which means that if we lynch him, we get to figure out who was right, and who was wrong and proceed from there.
None of the other lynch candidates are even close to as valuable as Subversion. If we lose another day lynching people who aren't mafia, then we're going to be in trouble.
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On July 22 2010 09:00 tree.hugger wrote:
This is the stupidest thing, pretty much ever.
Is there evidence against chaoser? Nobody can really explain what it is. Is there evidence against DTA? Hardly. Is there evidence against Subversion? Yes, there is.
1) Subversion voted at the last minute to lynch someone who's bandwagon was pathetic from the start, and really had nothing behind it. But the real significance of that vote, was that it saved someone else (youngminii). We didn't know about it at the time, because BM's count was off, but the mafia (assuming for a moment that youngminii is red) would clearly have a much more accurate count. They might've assumed that BM's vote count would be a cover, but at any rate they needed to make sure to save their own member.
2) Subversion's post, in which he commented on how well the mafia were doing was (a) not true, and (b) something that I don't think I've ever heard anyone innocent ever say in a game of mafia. That's something I can see a new mafia member thinking a townie would say, but that's not something a townie would actually say.
Furthermore, lynching Subversion just makes plain sense from a town perspective. A whole host of people have put their reputations on the line to save Subversion. Nobody has said anything in chaoser's defense. Nobody has said anything in DTA's defense. They've been left to defend themselves, and, apparently to some people that looks guilty.
What does that mean? Aside from being absurdly suspicious, if we lynch Subversion, then we gain a ton of information. If Subversion flips red, then we catch youngminii right off the bat. citi.zen has been defending Subversion nearly every post he gets, albeit a little more subtlety. Almost everyone in the game is on record saying something about Subversion, which means that if we lynch him, we get to figure out who was right, and who was wrong and proceed from there.
None of the other lynch candidates are even close to as valuable as Subversion. If we lose another day lynching people who aren't mafia, then we're going to be in trouble.
And it was this argument that changed my mind and made me unvote Chaoser and vote Subversion.
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On July 22 2010 08:52 chaoser wrote:
think that's the vote, modified BM's to be more recent, well good bye town, take note of last minute votes on me
Will do. Also thanks for keeping tabs of votes. I've actually very recently been considering other candidates for the lynch but I'm not prepared to go for a double lynch at the moment nor am I inclined to change my vote on you. If you have any info or suspicions and you're not mafia then please go ahead and tell us just before the day ends. Every little bit helps. Sorry for voting you out of the game so early (assuming it happens in 5hours).
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oh ffs people.
if you really want me dead so fucking badly just wait a night.
i was already informed by pm that saying that thing about roleclaim was stupid because now the mafia is going to kill my ass. so if you really want a ton of information, u'll get it when I FUCKING DIE.
I can't believe all this shit is over one stupid comment. People have posted pages of post analysis, and you're still hung up over that.
And I've defended my day 1 vote till I'm blue in the face. You really make me think you haven't even read it.
And Pandain, I thought our PM love was true. </3
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My test is simple.
People seemed veryyyy into somehow making me into a lynch target even though I wasn't even a blip on the radar before today. I compiled information and let the game run it's course. This is because I don't like to impose my opinion on people unless I feel it's very very accurate and correct. I was waiting for more information because I said something because I like to be sure. That is why some people think i was "under the radar". But I didn't want to not help the town so I did the only thing I could do, I compiled lists and information. They not only help me think about patterns in people's movements and decisions but they can be used by all of the town. By presenting them as just information I was trying hard not to put a spin on it so that it was pure.
But all of a sudden, Pandain puts together this HUGE case against me using faulty logic (which I'm glad to see that at least some people agree with). I was forced to defend myself. As the game wore on, I started to wonder, when did these accusations come about? Very close to the time that you, Subversion, were heading upwards in votes. Darth was still ahead of you but you were close to the top. So I decided to vote on you and tie the votes. This would force people into motion if you were truly mafia. To either vote for me or vote for Darth. And they did. People moved to Darth and me. But for some reason, even though I convinced Pandain to move off me and showed that the logic is flawed AT BEST, people kept voting for me. My test was complete.
I'll be glad to die if my death gives the town information about the mafia. a lot of people used fucked up logic to vote for me or to even convince others to vote for me. Those people should be looked at. Even when I responded and destroyed their arguments they said "eh, that's your opinion, I don't feel that way" It's not opinion, it's fact. Mafia is trying very hard to save someone right now. I don't know who but my death should shed some light. Good luck town.
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On July 22 2010 09:07 Subversion wrote:
blue in the face
i see what you did there
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er, can i edit the grammar of that previous post?
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On July 22 2010 09:10 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:i see what you did there
hahahahahahaha. man, that would have been awesome if it was intentional.
im in your head, derren brown style!
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On July 22 2010 09:00 tree.hugger wrote:]
If Subversion flips red, then we catch youngminii right off the bat.
I lol'd.
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also, a lot of my statements on BrownBear and Subversion were direct results of seeing people write "he's under the radar..sketchhh, all he does is make lists...hmmm" so I see that that came to bite me in the ass
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On July 22 2010 09:00 tree.hugger wrote:
1) Subversion voted at the last minute to lynch someone who's bandwagon was pathetic from the start, and really had nothing behind it. But the real significance of that vote, was that it saved someone else (youngminii). We didn't know about it at the time, because BM's count was off, but the mafia (assuming for a moment that youngminii is red) would clearly have a much more accurate count. They might've assumed that BM's vote count would be a cover, but at any rate they needed to make sure to save their own member.
And he had a reasonable explanation (panic'ed, got mod-killed in his first game for not voting on time, so he hurriedly voted since he didn't want to abstain). At the beginning of this day I would have been in complete agreement, but I'm leaning more and more towards it being a freak coincidence at this point. Much like I'm sure there will be some last minute vote for this lynching and whoever cast it will get dragged through the mud, justly or not.
2) Subversion's post, in which he commented on how well the mafia were doing was (a) not true, and (b) something that I don't think I've ever heard anyone innocent ever say in a game of mafia. That's something I can see a new mafia member thinking a townie would say, but that's not something a townie would actually say.
This is a really weak argument (notably in 2nd position). If one is having trouble identifying mafia members to lynch, then it follows that the mafia are playing well.
Furthermore, lynching Subversion just makes plain sense from a town perspective. A whole host of people have put their reputations on the line to save Subversion. Nobody has said anything in chaoser's defense. Nobody has said anything in DTA's defense. They've been left to defend themselves, and, apparently to some people that looks guilty.
Because Subversion appears innocent, the others not so much. Expert mafia cover? Perhaps.
What does that mean? Aside from being absurdly suspicious, if we lynch Subversion, then we gain a ton of information. If Subversion flips red, then we catch youngminii right off the bat. citi.zen has been defending Subversion nearly every post he gets, albeit a little more subtlety. Almost everyone in the game is on record saying something about Subversion, which means that if we lynch him, we get to figure out who was right, and who was wrong and proceed from there.
None of the other lynch candidates are even close to as valuable as Subversion. If we lose another day lynching people who aren't mafia, then we're going to be in trouble.
This entire paragraph runs on the assumption that Subversion is red. If he flips green, then what? All the people defending him this round are justified, and those that voted for him can claim that they were justified through reasoning such as yours and we're nowhere again.
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[QUOTE]On July 22 2010 09:22 SiNiquity wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 22 2010 09:00 tree.hugger wrote:
1) Subversion voted at the last minute to lynch someone who's bandwagon was pathetic from the start, and really had nothing behind it. But the real significance of that vote, was that it saved someone else (youngminii). We didn't know about it at the time, because BM's count was off, but the mafia (assuming for a moment that youngminii is red) would clearly have a much more accurate count. They might've assumed that BM's vote count would be a cover, but at any rate they needed to make sure to save their own member.
[/quote]
And he had a reasonable explanation (panic'ed, got mod-killed in his first game for not voting on time, so he hurriedly voted since he didn't want to abstain). At the beginning of this day I would have been in complete agreement, but I'm leaning more and more towards it being a freak coincidence at this point. Much like I'm sure there will be some last minute vote for this lynching and whoever cast it will get dragged through the mud, justly or not.
While I'm all for posts defending me, just want to point out I wasn't modkilled in 1st game for not voting, I was modkilled for getting a temp ban 
However, the rest is true, I did panic about getting modkilled in this game, as I saw my name in a list of potential modkill :O
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On July 22 2010 08:52 chaoser wrote:
8] DarthThienAn (d3_crescentia, Pyrrhuloxia, XeliN, zeks, Subversion, chaoser, LaXerCannon, rastaban)
9] chaoser (DarthThienAn, youngminii, Roffles, SouthRawrEa, misder, lakrismamma, citi.zen, BrownBear, Divinek)
6] Subversion (tree.hugger, bumatlarge, darththienan, jayme, Amber[LighT], Pandain)
3] Brownbear (Divinek, tricode, ~opz~)
1] Amber[LighT] (BloodyC0bbler)
Abstain: (SiNiquity, Protactinium, Infundibulum, rastaban)
not voting:
everyone voted!
double lynch:
(1/15)
iNfuNdiBuLuM
day ends in under 5 1/2 hours
think that's the vote, modified BM's to be more recent, well good bye town, take note of last minute votes on me[/QUOTE]
Just a quick note, you've got DTA in there twice.
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errrr... sumhow butchered the quoting there. sorry about that.
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Is the quote button just broken now or something? :\ I only added that note at the bottom and the formatting's all awry
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Fuck I dont know how to vote anymore.. The defense chaoser has used was very convincing especially the test witch is not something that a mafia would do imo.
I can agree that voting DTA will not give any information. He has just been acting crazy all game.
Subversion will give more information but he has soft claimed blue.. If he is mafia then its a good trick. But if he isn't then I think he should claim fully so that a medic can protect him. Otherwise he is dead tonight either way.
## vote abstain
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EPT
