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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Red do you really think Palmar is scum?
What happened to this:
On December 06 2011 06:39 redFF wrote:
GODDAMN THIS PALMAR WAGON IS BAD
Also:
On December 06 2011 09:47 redFF wrote:
i think palmar is fucking us around and is detrimental to town. plus we need a lynch.
##Vote Palmar
On December 06 2011 06:41 redFF wrote:
this is day 1, we need a lynch of some sort.
At this point you surely recognize Palmar is not getting 13 votes today. Hier, with your switch, almost certainly will.
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We going to get a reason for this?
On December 06 2011 10:39 Lanaia wrote:
##unvote: Palmar
##Vote: Hier
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On December 06 2011 10:25 Radfield wrote:Erandorr, I appreciate you building a case(Jackal too), and I think both you and Jackal have some decent criticism of my Day 1 play. I've been doing a lot of asking questions, and not a lot of follow up. That being said, I stand by every post I have made this game. My goal has been to get things moving and I think i've actually done a decent job at that, in addition to moving the thread down productive avenues. Some points: * I'm not a strong Day 1 scumhunter. In fact pretty much the only time I build big day 1 cases are when I'm mafia. Other than that I built a Day 1 case on Barundar in PYPI, and was wrong. * As town I almost always have a lot of town reads, and only a few scum reads(generally do the opposite when scum) * When I quote things, I routinely remove parts of the quote that are not directly related to the point I'm making.Read any past case I have built * I have only ever been right on Day 1 once  (Jackal in Merc Mini 2) The real question is: Do you agree with what I am doing right now? Consolidating a lynch on Hier, and trying to avoid a Palmar lynch?
I am totally torn on Palmar. The only game I really believed him to be town (Except when we were Romeo and Juliet together)
he was scum. That was the game Ace ran. I don't remember the name of it. All I remember is I made an ass out of myself trusting Palmar and cost town the game. That said I have been on the receiving end of his bullying when he was town. That's the Palmar I see this game to this point. But then he posted his role. That is a scum role. Don't care what you say Syllo.
So ya I don't know what to make of Palmar at this point. I think I'd rather see him alive than dead at the end of the day.
My problem with agreeing with you at this point is I really do think you're scum Rad. It's not a question of whether or not you're any good at finding scum on day 1. It's the way you've acted throughout the day. God knows I suck at finding scum day 1 too. But I haven't been all over the board like you have. I'll need to think about moving my vote to Heir. I'd much rather everybody voted for you but I don't see that happening at this point.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 06 2011 10:43 prplhz wrote:
@Radfield Why did you change your mind on the Lanaia lynch? She didn't post a single thing and neither did Hier, but for some reason you suddenly decided that Hier was better lynch than Lanaia.
She did post in that time, and explained that she DID in fact change her mind during the writing of that post. More importantly though I read over her filter from PTP where she was vanilla town. It looks a lot like her play this game, and I think I was more hung up on her style than anything else. Most of my suspicions were based on the posting similarities to XLVII, but basically her filter from both a previous scum game and previous town game look quite similar on the surface.
To tell the truth I was surprised to see so many games from her.
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EBWOP: No idea how I missed your explanation Lanaia. Sorry about that.
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On December 06 2011 10:47 Risen wrote:We going to get a reason for this?
It was in my last post, Risen. Palmar was acting like he did last game before he got lynched and that I felt he was town.
Or do you mean why I switched to Hier?
To avoid a Palmar lynch, he was the best target. People were consolidating onto him and from what I've seen in the past, Palmar can be a hell of a lot more helpful than Hier.
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On December 06 2011 10:53 Lanaia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 10:47 Risen wrote:We going to get a reason for this? On December 06 2011 10:39 Lanaia wrote:
##unvote: Palmar
##Vote: Hier It was in my last post, Risen. Palmar was acting like he did last game before he got lynched and that I felt he was town. Or do you mean why I switched to Hier? To avoid a Palmar lynch, he was the best target. People were consolidating onto him and from what I've seen in the past, Palmar can be a hell of a lot more helpful than Hier.
I had meant why did you swap onto Hier, somehow I missed your post.
I don't understand why everyone and their mother is hopping ship all of a sudden is all. Bloodyc0bbler much? There we had the benefit of them having no excuses. Here we don't have shit, we won't be able to single out anyone swapping because it's not happening at the last minute. Where does this leave us day 2? We have like just over a 25% chance of scoring on Hier in my mind. If he flips scum, well hot damn we just hit our straight. If he doesn't, oh... well shit I guess I shouldn't have bet like a madman.
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I will agree completely that Palmar can be more useful than Hier. But when did it become Palmar is useful... therefor lynch lurker.
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On December 06 2011 10:53 Lanaia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 10:47 Risen wrote:We going to get a reason for this? On December 06 2011 10:39 Lanaia wrote:
##unvote: Palmar
##Vote: Hier It was in my last post, Risen. Palmar was acting like he did last game before he got lynched and that I felt he was town. Or do you mean why I switched to Hier? To avoid a Palmar lynch, he was the best target. People were consolidating onto him and from what I've seen in the past, Palmar can be a hell of a lot more helpful than Hier.
Last game you knew Palmar was town because you were scum. Same situation?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 06 2011 10:50 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 10:25 Radfield wrote:Erandorr, I appreciate you building a case(Jackal too), and I think both you and Jackal have some decent criticism of my Day 1 play. I've been doing a lot of asking questions, and not a lot of follow up. That being said, I stand by every post I have made this game. My goal has been to get things moving and I think i've actually done a decent job at that, in addition to moving the thread down productive avenues. Some points: * I'm not a strong Day 1 scumhunter. In fact pretty much the only time I build big day 1 cases are when I'm mafia. Other than that I built a Day 1 case on Barundar in PYPI, and was wrong. * As town I almost always have a lot of town reads, and only a few scum reads(generally do the opposite when scum) * When I quote things, I routinely remove parts of the quote that are not directly related to the point I'm making.Read any past case I have built * I have only ever been right on Day 1 once (Jackal in Merc Mini 2) The real question is: Do you agree with what I am doing right now? Consolidating a lynch on Hier, and trying to avoid a Palmar lynch? I am totally torn on Palmar. The only game I really believed him to be town (Except when we were Romeo and Juliet together) he was scum. That was the game Ace ran. I don't remember the name of it. All I remember is I made an ass out of myself trusting Palmar and cost town the game. That said I have been on the receiving end of his bullying when he was town. That's the Palmar I see this game to this point. But then he posted his role. That is a scum role. Don't care what you say Syllo. So ya I don't know what to make of Palmar at this point. I think I'd rather see him alive than dead at the end of the day. My problem with agreeing with you at this point is I really do think you're scum Rad. It's not a question of whether or not you're any good at finding scum on day 1. It's the way you've acted throughout the day. God knows I suck at finding scum day 1 too. But I haven't been all over the board like you have. I'll need to think about moving my vote to Heir. I'd much rather everybody voted for you but I don't see that happening at this point.
Have I really been all over the board? I'll admit I skim-read your case against me, but I just don't see how you can think what I've been doing so far has mafia motives? Unless your simply stating that my mafia motive is to blend in, but in that case I would be posting way way less. Go look at any game I have played as scum, and count how many posts I have in day 1. I bet I have at least double the posts so far than any scum game I have ever played. Scum = lurkish, with some directing, and a few cases + lotsa scum reads. Town = open, conversational, poking and prodding, commenting, keeping town discussion flowing, leading and consolidating lynches.
The game was Some Mafia Game, and as I recall the reason you trusted Palmar was due to the fact that you checked him N1 as Parity Cop, NOT due to his play. You even posted how it was just too unlikely that your first check would hit the godfather(or framed mafia in that case).
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On December 06 2011 10:45 Radfield wrote:Red do you really think Palmar is scum? What happened to this: Also: Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 09:47 redFF wrote:
i think palmar is fucking us around and is detrimental to town. plus we need a lynch.
##Vote Palmar Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 06:41 redFF wrote:
this is day 1, we need a lynch of some sort. At this point you surely recognize Palmar is not getting 13 votes today. Hier, with your switch, almost certainly will.
that's why i switched
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On December 06 2011 10:42 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 10:40 redFF wrote:
i agree that how he is acting right now is similar to how he was acting last game before being lynched but that is almost certainly intention and i treat it as more scummy than anything else. Then what's the point of meta at all? Oh he's acting how he did that one time, he must be town. He's acting like he did that one time, makes him more scummy imo. Seems like using meta at all is just WIFOM b/c the person in question has to know he's being looked at. So that means we should just build a case against him based on what he's done in this thread.
yeah yeah sure whatever
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On December 06 2011 11:07 redFF wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 10:42 Risen wrote:On December 06 2011 10:40 redFF wrote:
i agree that how he is acting right now is similar to how he was acting last game before being lynched but that is almost certainly intention and i treat it as more scummy than anything else. Then what's the point of meta at all? Oh he's acting how he did that one time, he must be town. He's acting like he did that one time, makes him more scummy imo. Seems like using meta at all is just WIFOM b/c the person in question has to know he's being looked at. So that means we should just build a case against him based on what he's done in this thread. yeah yeah sure whatever
Yeah that's an awesome defense of your point. I'm swayed completely.
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I just got home. Bad weather, slow traffic and dinner really screwed up my evening.
I read through the last 20 pages or so and I'm going to say that I'm not convinced on either of these two candidates, Hier or Palmar.
My impression is that Palmar was attempting to apply pressure and bad things happened. It seems that vaderseven wanted to be a hero and win the game singlehandedly with his gun. Soap flips Red -> Lynch Palmar who would flip Red and vaderseven's name is recorded forever in TL Mafia history. Unfortunately, vaderseven's instincts aren't that great.
The case against Hier is to lynch a non-contributing lurker to avoid a non-lynch scenario. I don't know if I can support that. Especially when I have such a strong mafia candidate.
Here is my copy and paste from the text that I sent to myself from before:
I hinted at it before but I haven't had a chance to post before now. Refallen is mafia.
Let's examine his posting history: Refallen's Posts
After discarding a few inconsequential posts we get to these:
In this set of quotes Refallen asks other players to justify their votes without providing his own comments. The purpose is to redirect the focus onto other players while distracting the Town.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 04 2011 23:33 Refallen wrote:hyshes why are you voting for syllogism? On December 05 2011 02:00 Refallen wrote:redFF why do you say Palmar is acting scummy?
These next four excerpts are from the SAME post!
+ Show Spoiler +On December 05 2011 10:01 Refallen wrote:Show nested quote +Oh, I forgot to confirm.
I read my PM etc before I made any posts once the day had started (just to be clear that I am aware of my role align in all of my posts etc etc). I thought this was weird by vader, wouldn't this be automatically assumed? Not sure what to make of this though, whether it leans him more to a powerrole/mafia or just nothing special. On December 05 2011 10:01 Refallen wrote:
I agree with redFF's analysis for the most part, and I especially found it weird that Palmar proposed the no-day lynch, which indicates him to be maybe scum. On December 05 2011 10:01 Refallen wrote:You know, I find this post a bit weird. It sounds like you're trying to get people to vote Palmar... On December 05 2011 10:01 Refallen wrote:
Right now I think Corrupt looks pretty scummy but he hasn't really had a chance to speak out and defend himself yet. Still, if day ends now I would vote him to be mafia.
More of the same:
+ Show Spoiler +On December 05 2011 11:43 Refallen wrote:
Yes, what prplhz said about VE is what I was thinking as well. On December 05 2011 13:47 Refallen wrote:
(Also I find it interesting that the other person who has called out Drazerk is VE, who I think to be slightly suspicious as well) On December 05 2011 14:30 Refallen wrote:
I haven't been "jumping on easy votes" at all, I didn't agree with Palmar/Corrupt and said so, and I also laid out my reasoning why I thought Soap was scum. Obviously, I wasn't aware of prior metagame history which makes me think that he isn't so scummy anymore.
How many people do you actually suspect, Refallen? Where is your analysis on these players? Why do you spend so much energy redirecting/distracting the Town?
By the way, his reasoning as to why he believed that Soap was scum was that:
On December 05 2011 13:35 Refallen wrote:
I feel that that was a definite attempt to redirect/distract which seems scummy to me
I see, Refallen... By your logic, are you not then mafia?
He was one of only 2 people to vote for Soap. In fact, he jumped on that vote as though he needed an excuse to cast his vote.
As soon he realized that no bandwagon would form, he needed a reason to retract his vote:
+ Show Spoiler +On December 05 2011 23:11 Refallen wrote:
Also, ##unvote, since from reading Soap's previous game he acted similarly and was town too.
We now get to the present and from his more recent posts:
Refallen's next few posts are directed at Palmar and vaderseven.
He's joined the vote against Hier.
My conclusion:
Refallen is mafia and anyone he votes, I will not.
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On December 06 2011 11:01 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 10:50 Jackal58 wrote:On December 06 2011 10:25 Radfield wrote:Erandorr, I appreciate you building a case(Jackal too), and I think both you and Jackal have some decent criticism of my Day 1 play. I've been doing a lot of asking questions, and not a lot of follow up. That being said, I stand by every post I have made this game. My goal has been to get things moving and I think i've actually done a decent job at that, in addition to moving the thread down productive avenues. Some points: * I'm not a strong Day 1 scumhunter. In fact pretty much the only time I build big day 1 cases are when I'm mafia. Other than that I built a Day 1 case on Barundar in PYPI, and was wrong. * As town I almost always have a lot of town reads, and only a few scum reads(generally do the opposite when scum) * When I quote things, I routinely remove parts of the quote that are not directly related to the point I'm making.Read any past case I have built * I have only ever been right on Day 1 once (Jackal in Merc Mini 2) The real question is: Do you agree with what I am doing right now? Consolidating a lynch on Hier, and trying to avoid a Palmar lynch? I am totally torn on Palmar. The only game I really believed him to be town (Except when we were Romeo and Juliet together) he was scum. That was the game Ace ran. I don't remember the name of it. All I remember is I made an ass out of myself trusting Palmar and cost town the game. That said I have been on the receiving end of his bullying when he was town. That's the Palmar I see this game to this point. But then he posted his role. That is a scum role. Don't care what you say Syllo. So ya I don't know what to make of Palmar at this point. I think I'd rather see him alive than dead at the end of the day. My problem with agreeing with you at this point is I really do think you're scum Rad. It's not a question of whether or not you're any good at finding scum on day 1. It's the way you've acted throughout the day. God knows I suck at finding scum day 1 too. But I haven't been all over the board like you have. I'll need to think about moving my vote to Heir. I'd much rather everybody voted for you but I don't see that happening at this point. Have I really been all over the board? I'll admit I skim-read your case against me, but I just don't see how you can think what I've been doing so far has mafia motives? Unless your simply stating that my mafia motive is to blend in, but in that case I would be posting way way less. Go look at any game I have played as scum, and count how many posts I have in day 1. I bet I have at least double the posts so far than any scum game I have ever played. Scum = lurkish, with some directing, and a few cases + lotsa scum reads. Town = open, conversational, poking and prodding, commenting, keeping town discussion flowing, leading and consolidating lynches. The game was Some Mafia Game, and as I recall the reason you trusted Palmar was due to the fact that you checked him N1 as Parity Cop, NOT due to his play. You even posted how it was just too unlikely that your first check would hit the godfather(or framed mafia in that case).
It was the SMG game. And ya I was screwed by pulling the parity cop and checking GF night one and a framed wbg night 2. Story of my life. Only time I've ever been cop. Only time I've ever trusted Palmar. Ya don't want that shit again.
I don't really know your scum meta all that well. I think you've killed me night one every time. And yes you've been all over the board. Wishy washy at times. Posts that plant a seed of suspicion in the minds of others. I do that a lot when I'm scum. Never FoS somebody just let it sit there and fester. I see some of that from you. Posting lists after saying you don't like lists while stating "Ya I said I don't like lists but fuck here's one any ways" Saying rng voting is stupid and then doing it anyways. I just don't get it man.
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On December 06 2011 11:00 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 10:53 Lanaia wrote:On December 06 2011 10:47 Risen wrote:We going to get a reason for this? On December 06 2011 10:39 Lanaia wrote:
##unvote: Palmar
##Vote: Hier It was in my last post, Risen. Palmar was acting like he did last game before he got lynched and that I felt he was town. Or do you mean why I switched to Hier? To avoid a Palmar lynch, he was the best target. People were consolidating onto him and from what I've seen in the past, Palmar can be a hell of a lot more helpful than Hier. Last game you knew Palmar was town because you were scum. Same situation?
No. That's not what I mean at all. I did almost switch off him that game because I felt bad for him. It has nothing to do with the fact I was scum last game. I recall another game I felt similarly towards him but I can't remember which game it was (I was town as the last game was the only one I've been scum in).
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Just a friendly reminder that day ends 2 hours and 41 minutes from the time of this post.
Sorry for any confusion this may have caused; day 1 is two hours shorter than every other day will be because it started late.The normal deadline is 20:00 PST but the deadline this time will be 21:00.
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I don't think Refallen is scum and this is a weird time to try to get people to change to him, but ultimately it appears that it is more kingjames01 trying to justify that he's not voting Hier or something. That's the conclusion anyway.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
The RNG things was not actually random. I thought that became kinda apparent. Drazerk called me out and I explained it there, though I admit I didn't go into detail. I have actually thought about posting several times to clear it up, but each time deleted my post because I didn't want to sidetrack. The gist is, I wanted to generate some chatter, see prp's reaction specifically, and town's reaction in general. I figured that mafia would most likely not jump on me, simply because it was over the top blatant, but that it was the kind of thing townies would bite on. It was done pretty much on a whim, it pretty much accomplished what I wanted, and I wish I hadn't done it because things like that always bite me in the ass (like requesting an RPG and BP vest in my first post in Merc Mini).
I can see where you're coming from on the planting seeds. Rest assured though I will be building proper cases on people.
I will make you a deal. If I am still alive after night 2, and you still think I am scum you can push me all you want. Until then give me some room to work and see what I can do(and I will do the same for you). Deal?
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@Radfield
Stop trying to make stupid deals. Deal?
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EPT
