EPTStrelok vs White-Ra VODs - ESWC Europe finals - Page 2
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kroko
Finland2136 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On April 08 2009 02:01 StylishVODs wrote: great, im gonna watch now while taking some "snus" woho just finnished watching the first game and i just have to say im abit stunned with the lack of understanding of the buildorders in the early game here.. + Show Spoiler +
The result and flow of the game is also a pretty good proof that these things are actually correct. I don't mean to be rude or anything, I normally enjoy the commentating by artosis and tasteless alot and im sure i will in the future aswell i just wanted to point these things out for any terrans that might be wondering about this. ... seriously? any kind of fd is horrible vs 10 15 range. watch the medusa game. white-ra throws away a goon early and then makes a horrible attack, wasting a bunch more goons without even getting a tank kill and then as strelok pushes out white-ra is still able to take him down to 1 half health tank. had ra executed properly at all strelok woulda flat out lost. he should have lost anyway had ra just made a zealot to draw the mines. theyll have 3 goons and range before you have 2 tanks, meaning theyre just gonna dance around and pick at your marine count until they have 5+ goons and then they can just rape you, marines are useless vs that many range goons and you wont have enough mines or vultures to do anything. theres really nothing you can do about it but hope they fuck up like ra did. nexus wont be up later in a standard game because terrans gonna be dealing with heavy pressure. yes protoss is investing more, but theyre getting alot more out of it. 5 fac push is never standard. if you're gonna timing push its either 4 or 6. 4 fac to take advantage of some kind of early timing window left by wasted tech or greed, and 6 fac for a normal timing push. the build order itself isnt great, but its ok in some cases. however, not vs 10/15 range. 99% of the time if a korean is using this build and sees 10 15 theyll cut the 2nd tank and 4 marines, bunker and expo asap. why are you trying to give people strategy advice? much less pick and what artosis and tasteless are saying? | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
That kind of fd is capable of withstanding a 2gate goon preassure. You can defend 3 goons with 7 marines and 1 tank and then have 1scv 8marines 2tanks vs 5 goons. Protoss cuts more probes AND units+gates cost more so protoss will be behind unless they do alot of damage. Terran expo will be up sooner and from there if protoss takes his natural, then usually take his 3rd and robo in some order, you can add refinary in your expansion before second factory and then go for a 5fact push. You will have enough gas to add 4 fact, keep producing tanks from one and then make units from all 5 fact and still be able to add suply. Artosis and tasteless said that this was a really wierd build, it isn't. Its really good. I've done it alot of times and seen many other good gamers use it, yes progamers too. I dont take back anything I said in my previous comment. just as an example: nada vs jangbi strong fd vs 2gate preassure. It works out fine and terran gets faster eco and has more scvs. and this is vs a progamers goons so why the hell woudldn't it work vs 99% on iccup? And I give advice because Im trying to help terrans. Are you saying that the strategies in my threads are bad? It's not like I've invented them myself, and unless you can make the effort to make an equally good guide for alot of terranplayers here on tl you should stfu. I didn't try to pick on them I even said that they are correct most of the times, but not all times as in this specific scenario. | ||
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
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RA
Latvia791 Posts
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
that jangbi-nada set 1 was coming into my mind immediately it seems viable to me, definitely.. | ||
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Mikilatov
United States3897 Posts
Game 2 is incredible, but the whole series is just awesome. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On April 09 2009 02:19 StylishVODs wrote: Im pretty sure about this. That kind of fd is capable of withstanding a 2gate goon preassure. You can defend 3 goons with 7 marines and 1 tank and then have 1scv 8marines 2tanks vs 5 goons. its not like you're gonna die to the 3 goons, but he has range, meaning he sits there taking pot shots at your marines and probably not even taking a tank shot if he micros properly. and then this continues when he has 5 until you have no marines left and your tanks are sitting ducks. Protoss cuts more probes AND units+gates cost more so protoss will be behind unless they do alot of damage. and they will do alot of damage unless they fuck up. also 1 rax 1 fac costs more than 2 gates Terran expo will be up sooner and from there if protoss takes his natural, then usually take his 3rd and robo in some order, you can add refinary in your expansion before second factory and then go for a 5fact push. You will have enough gas to add 4 fact, keep producing tanks from one and then make units from all 5 fact and still be able to add suply. Artosis and tasteless said that this was a really wierd build, it isn't. Its really good. I've done it alot of times and seen many other good gamers use it, yes progamers too. I dont take back anything I said in my previous comment. it is a weird build. flash used it once successfully vs kal on medusa so all of the terrans here tried it out before msl qualifiers, and everyone discarded it after a couple of games. its really just not good. it shouldnt do well vs anything, you're just depending on them fucking up their micro. the fact that people fuck up does mean it works occasionally, that doesnt change the fact that its weird. just as an example: nada vs jangbi strong fd vs 2gate preassure. It works out fine and terran gets faster eco and has more scvs. and this is vs a progamers goons so why the hell woudldn't it work vs 99% on iccup? what? thats not the same build. strelok went 10 10 10, thats what artosis and tasteless were saying was weird/bad, they dont show for sure but i think nada was 11 11 there, and it certainly wasnt 10 10 10. a normal fd with 2 tanks is a fine build, you cut more than an scv with 10 10 10 which makes it significantly weaker economically and only a marginally faster rush. also that game is cross positions on a huge map, and jangbi follows up a failed rush with a spectacularly failed reaver. no shit his expos gonna be later. but thats irrelevant as it wasnt even the build we're talking about And I give advice because Im trying to help terrans. Are you saying that the strategies in my threads are bad? It's not like I've invented them myself, and unless you can make the effort to make an equally good guide for alot of terranplayers here on tl you should stfu. I didn't try to pick on them I even said that they are correct most of the times, but not all times as in this specific scenario. im pretty sure my posts on here are far more beneficial to the community than your guides if all of your guides are as well informed as your posts in this thread. giving bad advice is not better than giving no advice. | ||
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iSCOUT4u
United States327 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
and going 10 10 10 fd vs hard goon builds is gonna fuck you over at any level. | ||
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iSCOUT4u
United States327 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
its not like you're gonna die to the 3 goons, but he has range, meaning he sits there taking pot shots at your marines and probably not even taking a tank shot if he micros properly. and then this continues when he has 5 until you have no marines left and your tanks are sitting ducks. I dont know why you insist on white ra microing badly etc. Its going to be hard to pick off all the marines without losing goons, thats the whole purpose of making the marines. Even if protoss micro correctly you can beat those goons with 8rines +2tanks. Just like nada did. (im not implying that jangbi microed perfectly that game, simply trying to say that the fight will be pretty even, and many times you can save the tanks and vultures+mines will finnish when you place the cc.) and they will do alot of damage unless they fuck up. also 1 rax 1 fac costs more than 2 gates Same here. You can just watch what happened in the two games of this discussion. That will happen very often and I would say unless terran fucks up he should be doing ok. ya, or you could get the 6 factories that your economy can support and do a good push. or what you said, whichever. 5fact will be faster. You only need to reach his temples to make damage but sometimes you can just go for the natural. Sure 6fact is also good and maybe more standard. it is a weird build. flash used it once successfully vs kal on medusa so all of the terrans here tried it out before msl qualifiers, and everyone discarded it after a couple of games. its really just not good. it shouldnt do well vs anything, you're just depending on them fucking up their micro. the fact that people fuck up does mean it works occasionally, that doesnt change the fact that its weird. Flash did it, progamers tested it out. Alot of games of this strat has been played on iccup, I've done it alot of times. I don't think its "wierd" but what i meant when i wrote it is that artosis and tasteless were leaning towards that this was like streloks unique style etc no one else does this and i reacted on that, since obviously its a pretty well used and tested strategy even amongst koreans. what? thats not the same build. strelok went 10 10 10, thats what artosis and tasteless were saying was weird/bad, they dont show for sure but i think nada was 11 11 there, and it certainly wasnt 10 10 10. a normal fd with 2 tanks is a fine build, you cut more than an scv with 10 10 10 which makes it significantly weaker economically and only a marginally faster rush. also that game is cross positions on a huge map, and jangbi follows up a failed rush with a spectacularly failed reaver. no shit his expos gonna be later. but thats irrelevant as it wasnt even the build we're talking about Im pretty sure it was a 10 10 10 since the tank was up way before the 5goons got there. I know its far pos but the tank also had to move abit to get there since he had awierd buildingplaccement. It doesnt matter if he followd up with robotics. Terran cuts 1 scv. Protoss cuts alot of probes. Terran units cost a total of 1300minerals 400gas. (excluding suply and refinery) Protoss units 1475minerals and 325 gas. (excluding pylons and assimilator) This is unless protoss cuts dragoons after the 5 first, which he won't i most cases. So protoss units cost more and he's cutting more probes, thus will be behind economically. What I reacted on here was artosis and tasteless talking only about terran cutting scvs and that he will fall behind economically, that just isn't true. im pretty sure my posts on here are far more beneficial to the community than your guides if all of your guides are as well informed as your posts in this thread. giving bad advice is not better than giving no advice. Bad advice? If it will improve the skill of players of lesser skill than me how can it be bad? Atleast it's certainly not bad for them. Maybe its bad for global warming or something.... bad joke but im sure you get the point. Im guessing 99% of those who take advice from me are not planning to become progamers. So if 1% thinks my advice is bad then so be it. If my advice improve people's skill its good enough for me. I'm not a coatch in a pro-team so ofcourse my advice shouldn't be aplied on a pro level, but it works good up to B+ A- and I guess if you get that good you can start learning by yourself. Ofc Im pretty sure not 100% of everything ive posted or said is completely correct, I might have missed some things here and there, but over all its pretty solid and I'm making an effort for the community. Im even suggesting drinking lots of redbull to get gosu at startcraft, thus my advice rules. ya, its very helpful to learn stuff thats wrong just so you can unlearn it if you want to get good. and going 10 10 10 fd vs hard goon builds is gonna fuck you over at any level. You keep saying stuff like this again and again when obviously you're proven wrong. It didn't fuck up Nada, didn't fuck up strelok, didn't fuck up me didn't fuck up alot of other gamers. You keep saying this and that won't work he just god lucky etc, f91 didn't do the correct build so I lost, that and that player sux etc. Why do you keep doing this? As I've already said, my strats and the strats I've copied from pro-gamers are good enough if you want to hit pretty high ranks. For those who want to evolve after that, go to korea and start learning more details to the builds and also other builds. Many players have PMed me telling me their skill has improved because of my guides and if only one person had sent me a PM i would be satisfied. Finally: Siege expand and normal fd was too weak against 10/15 gate on medusa. You would lose too many scvs from repairing suply and the tanks could get sniped if you siege expand and if you normal fd with 1 tank you would get overwhelmed. Thats why people started using the stronger 2 tank 10 10 10(9.5) fd to be able to withstand that preassure and take advantage of the lack of economy from protoss, and also get a fwe easy wins whenever protoss 14nexus or 1gate exp or whatever. Saying that its horrible against 10/15 is wrong and you have to admit it. Also what I reacted at the most was that the commentators were saying: "This is the perfect counter to what strelok is doing" and "terran is cutting so many scvs and will be economically behind". Care to explain how you can support this quote? edit: I never meant to pick on the commentators in general. I already said I like almost everything they've done but in this case i felt like I had to say something. Maybe it was a bad idea and I apologize to them if it hurt their feelings in any way. | ||
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Strelok
Ukraine320 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On April 09 2009 11:24 StylishVODs wrote: I dont know why you insist on white ra microing badly etc. Its going to be hard to pick off all the marines without losing goons, thats the whole purpose of making the marines. Even if protoss micro correctly you can beat those goons with 8rines +2tanks. Just like nada did. (im not implying that jangbi microed perfectly that game, simply trying to say that the fight will be pretty even, and many times you can save the tanks and vultures+mines will finnish when you place the cc.) um did you not watch the game? ra microed horribly. i dont see how you can call losing 4-5 goons for a handful of marines anything else. hell he donated one goon for absolutely nothing, and THEN attacked into his base despite being a goon down. Same here. You can just watch what happened in the two games of this discussion. That will happen very often and I would say unless terran fucks up he should be doing ok. 5fact will be faster. You only need to reach his temples to make damage but sometimes you can just go for the natural. Sure 6fact is also good and maybe more standard. Flash did it, progamers tested it out. Alot of games of this strat has been played on iccup, I've done it alot of times. I don't think its "wierd" but what i meant when i wrote it is that artosis and tasteless were leaning towards that this was like streloks unique style etc no one else does this and i reacted on that, since obviously its a pretty well used and tested strategy even amongst koreans. people have gone double nex on destination. sometimes pros use builds that arent really good for suprise value and hope their opponents dont react properly. did you read what i said? yes pros have tested it, and in general chose not to use it because its not a good build. (10 10 10, not 2 tank fd in general, altho thats not great either). using a build that is generally not good and not commonly used is weird, non standard. Im pretty sure it was a 10 10 10 since the tank was up way before the 5goons got there. I know its far pos but the tank also had to move abit to get there since he had awierd buildingplaccement. ? k well, you're wrong. it wasnt 10 10 10. count his scvs. It doesnt matter if he followd up with robotics. Terran cuts 1 scv. Protoss cuts alot of probes. Terran units cost a total of 1300minerals 400gas. (excluding suply and refinery) Protoss units 1475minerals and 325 gas. (excluding pylons and assimilator) This is unless protoss cuts dragoons after the 5 first, which he won't i most cases. So protoss units cost more and he's cutting more probes, thus will be behind economically. What I reacted on here was artosis and tasteless talking only about terran cutting scvs and that he will fall behind economically, that just isn't true. it... doesnt matter if he followed up with robotics? seriously? a completely failed reaver tech and you're using that as an example of 10/15's economic inferiority? with 10 10 10 you cut more than 1 scv in order to have all the rush units ready at the same time, you cant fit constant rines and 2 tanks and depots and constant scvs. you cut at least 2, the initial one and one before your 2nd depot. and protoss does not cut 'alot' of probes. maybe more than 2, but not much more. and once again you're ignoring the efficiency. protoss does not need more than 5 goons unless theyre going for the kill, and in that case terran is gonna have to produce extra units and expand alot later themselves because they spend 400 minerals on cannon fodder and got late mines. Bad advice? If it will improve the skill of players of lesser skill than me how can it be bad? Atleast it's certainly not bad for them. Maybe its bad for global warming or something.... bad joke but im sure you get the point. Im guessing 99% of those who take advice from me are not planning to become progamers. So if 1% thinks my advice is bad then so be it. if i tell a D- player that he should proxy bbs every game tvz, hes gonna win alot more than before. did i do him any favors? no. people looking for advice are looking to become better at the game. giving them a temporary fix that will hold them back in the long run is not doing them any favors. If my advice improve people's skill its good enough for me. I'm not a coatch in a pro-team so ofcourse my advice shouldn't be aplied on a pro level, but it works good up to B+ A- and I guess if you get that good you can start learning by yourself. Ofc Im pretty sure not 100% of everything ive posted or said is completely correct, I might have missed some things here and there, but over all its pretty solid and I'm making an effort for the community. you can start learning by yourself after you unlearn all of the wrong stuff and drop back down to B-, ya. You keep saying stuff like this again and again when obviously you're proven wrong. It didn't fuck up Nada, didn't fuck up strelok, didn't fuck up me didn't fuck up alot of other gamers. You keep saying this and that won't work he just god lucky etc, f91 didn't do the correct build so I lost, that and that player sux etc. Why do you keep doing this? nada did not 10 10 10. strelok was donated 5 dragoons. good examples you got there. please show me a progamer going 10 10 10 fd vs 10/15 gate range successfully. then you can try to argue from example. otherwise shut up. As I've already said, my strats and the strats I've copied from pro-gamers are good enough if you want to hit pretty high ranks. For those who want to evolve after that, go to korea and start learning more details to the builds and also other builds. Many players have PMed me telling me their skill has improved because of my guides and if only one person had sent me a PM i would be satisfied. except these are people who dont actually know whats good for them. once again, i tell a newbie to proxy bbs and hes gonna win a bunch more than he would otherwise. hed think oh great im winning thx for the awesome advice. then he hits zergs who know how to drone micro and hes up against a wall. whereas if someone had told him that he just has to grind it out until he has better mechanics he would be in much better shape. Finally: Siege expand and normal fd was too weak against 10/15 gate on medusa. You would lose too many scvs from repairing suply and the tanks could get sniped if you siege expand and if you normal fd with 1 tank you would get overwhelmed. Thats why people started using the stronger 2 tank 10 10 10(9.5) fd to be able to withstand that preassure and take advantage of the lack of economy from protoss, and also get a fwe easy wins whenever protoss 14nexus or 1gate exp or whatever. people did not start using the 10 10 10 fd (on medusa), flash used it. once. maybe i missed a few games but it was certainly not the standard. and if 10 15 was so strong how come it got relatively little use on tv? siege exp is a fine counter to it. yes you have to control your scvs really well and you have to be careful with your tank, but its far better than trying to kill 5 range goons with marines and a tank. 10 15 works well in lower level play, but 10 10 10 doesnt help vs it there either unless we're talking about the level where goon control is non existant. Saying that its horrible against 10/15 is wrong and you have to admit it. Also what I reacted at the most was that the commentators were saying: "This is the perfect counter to what strelok is doing" and "terran is cutting so many scvs and will be economically behind". Care to explain how you can support this quote? ya, everything ive already said. you cut 2 scvs before 15 supply, that is big. maybe you think you have to cut 10+ to have an effect on your economy or somethin, i dunno how else to explain that to you. and you're doing a build where the brunt of your force is marines, vs a build that gets a buttload of range goons early. how well do you think that works out? once again, stop trying to reference the outcome of that game as white-ra had horrible control. he threw away 4 goons. the outcome of that is absolutely meaningless as you cant depend on your opponent to do something like that most games. edit: I never meant to pick on the commentators in general. I already said I like almost everything they've done but in this case i felt like I had to say something. Maybe it was a bad idea and I apologize to them if it hurt their feelings in any way. i doubt you hurt their feelings seeing as you're dead wrong. but it is kinda annoying when someone newbies look up to tries to paint others as ignorant when they arent. by making those vods you've convinced people you know what you're talking about. that means you cant just spout off at random because people less informed than you will believe you, and that just gets messy. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=83942¤tpage=All you do not know what you're talking about. you are a mediocre player with mediocre game knowledge. that makes you good in the eyes of D players. that does not mean you should be arguing with people who actually know what theyre talking about. | ||
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Clow
Brazil880 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
10/15 is not the perfect counter, isn't even a counter. You don't cut a second scv. You cut 1 marine (unless they open with a zealot) to have 5-6 rines(depending on far or close pos) 1 tank vs 3 goons and then 8rines 2tanks vs 5goons, and you keep talking about a few rines + 1 tank vs 5 ranged goons? but its far better than trying to kill 5 range goons with marines and a tank. Also you make suply at 16 not 15. I might be wrong about the nada build, he might have done 11 11 coz i only saw it once and they didn't show the timing but it still proves my point that the strong fd would fare well vs 10/15 since you have the very unitcombination of 5 goons and 8rines+2tanks and you have the fact that protoss cuts more probes and his units/buildings cost more until the point of the expansion. Strong FD will produce the second tank faster than normal FD and nada already had his 2 tanks finnished. it... doesnt matter if he followed up with robotics? Not to make the point i was trying to make. Economocis will not be behind for terran until the point you take the CC, he could have made a robotics, nexus, carrier rush, dt rush i dont care. Since in this case he did robotics of course terran is more economically ahead if it fails its not like im unaware of that. Does him building robotics or nexus change the fact that protoss is economically behind until the point he decides to place a nexus or robotics? no. also that game is cross positions on a huge map, and jangbi follows up a failed rush with a spectacularly failed reaver. no shit his expos gonna be later. but thats irrelevant as it wasnt even the build we're talking about How can it be irrelivant? You have 8rines 2tanks vs 5goons. Far position or not, he won't have 7 goons in your base at that point anyway. And then you link to a former TvT discussion thread. You did exactly what you said I did, except your post there was actually irrelivant, mine wasnt. I'm sure you'll be glad to know that I don't even give advice in TvT because I concider it to be my weaker matchup. First they say that he's executing the perfect counter, then they admire white-ra's micro. And yet you fails to see whats wrong here, atleast tasteless admitted he was wrong. I won't continue to "babble" with you now. Since you compare me helping people to get to higher ranks with telling a D- you should BBS every game you prove that you don't know what you're talking about. Also you have somehow imagined that you're actually helping people out so I don't know whats going on inside your head. You should have better understanding of the game since you've been in korea for so long, but then again you're always amazed that a strategy beats another and macro has always been your strenght. If you get some more understanding of the game you might actually become a great player. On April 09 2009 13:53 3D.Strelok wrote: Ofc 10-15 gate is not a counter to what i did. But hey, me and Idra are very different players, so what good to me is bad for him and the opposite ;p. Just 1 thing though - if Flash makes it again - it will work again. Trust me. And copying other players never was good and never helped. Yep, You obviously have better understanding of the game than Idra. I think copying builds is good for a while if you want a build that will practice your mechanics and if you don't know any good builds, and when you get better and better you want to adjust everything to suit your style. Idra is copying builds and practicing his mechanics and I'm pretty sure its his ignorance and attitude that holds him back from getting good fast. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
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.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
If you guys didn't know, Stylish gets bashed everywhere, not only on TL but also on GG by lastshadow (go figure) and other douchebags that think they're better because they made a name for themselves, Stylish has nothing to prove nor does he feel like he does, and he just plays for the love of the game, tries to help people out, and will obviously argue with someone that thinks his posts/guides are trash, because he worked on it quite a lot, not for ego but because he wanted to, so seriously kids play nicely... | ||
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Itachii
Poland12466 Posts
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