DQs: A2 and Pomi

On December 13 2009 07:16 H wrote:
there are so many ways to appreciate TSL

On December 13 2009 07:22 BlueStar wrote:
i just understood why. But how could u be so sure to take so tough decisions ;s
http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/jjlasdiaajak.html - the key

For detection and avoidance reasons, full method and details will be revealed at the ladder's conclusion.

On December 13 2009 07:44 Fallout wrote:
Problem is, when people know they ain't gonna make it, they are not gonna loose anything on cheating. Because the only punishment will be they are D.Q. It's no loss if you aint gonna make it anyway. So there should be a harder punishment.

On December 13 2009 07:44 Fallout wrote:
Problem is, when people know they ain't gonna make it, they are not gonna loose anything on cheating. Because the only punishment will be they are D.Q. It's no loss if you aint gonna make it anyway. So there should be a harder punishment.

On December 13 2009 07:42 edahl wrote:
That's just sad. Let's hope nobody important turns up cheating.

On December 13 2009 07:44 Fallout wrote:
Problem is, when people know they ain't gonna make it, they are not gonna loose anything on cheating. Because the only punishment will be they are D.Q. It's no loss if you aint gonna make it anyway. So there should be a harder punishment.

On December 13 2009 07:48 QibingZero wrote:


You have an interesting idea of what an 'important' player is.

On December 13 2009 07:47 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:

Not participating in future TL events can be pretty serious. Also for most people their reputation is actually important. It's important for your pride, but also to find sponsors and respect in the online community.

On December 13 2009 07:57 Fallout wrote:
Ok, I just thought it wouldn't effect the next TL event since I heard rumors of old hackers and cheaters participating. Pride is a small thing when it comes to money thou.. And if you're not a well known player why would you care? Strange thing that recognized gosu players like F91 and A2 doing it thou :/

On December 13 2009 07:57 Fallout wrote:
Ok, I just thought it wouldn't effect the next TL event since I heard rumors of old hackers and cheaters participating. Pride is a small thing when it comes to money thou.. And if you're not a well known player why would you care? Strange thing that recognized gosu players like F91 and A2 doing it thou :/

On December 13 2009 08:08 Surrealistic wrote:
Damn.

What happened to F91? Crumbled under the pressure and went back to China?

On December 13 2009 08:08 Surrealistic wrote:
Damn.

What happened to F91? Crumbled under the pressure and went back to China?

On December 13 2009 08:16 purgerinho wrote:
TSL format is too long and A2 or F91 couldn't make it without this mistakes they never done before and probably will never do again... you must put yourself in TSL to get a spot (for F91 it was much thougher coz he had to be in top12) for at least 3 weeks.. a2 and f91 are top10 foreign players without any doubt..

everything would be different if TSL players could play ONLY TSL players.. i mean, it's their ladder, gain points against players you compete against.. i don't judge a2, pomi or f91, i understand them.. this ain't the same thing as hacking and word cheating is too strong for what they did..

they deserve to be DQ but they don't deserve so much trash talking.. a2 won against jaedong and he is top3 russian player for many years.. no one have right to trash talk about him coz of this thing..

On December 13 2009 07:09 Jyvblamo wrote:
Et tu, A2?

On December 13 2009 07:50 Alethios wrote:
Because i'm a gigantic nerd, I'm reminded of a line from firefly. Jayne, after being caught betraying the others says

"I got stupid ok? the money was too good"

On December 13 2009 08:26 Slaughter wrote:


Yes they do deserve to be trash talked. You can't cheat and expect everyone to go "well its k he took a game off Jaedong so its cool" Look at Testie, top player who cheated and he got his fair share of hazing (tho of course Testies case was way worse). From the looks of it though He didn't even NEED to cheat.

On December 13 2009 09:29 White-Ra wrote:
OMG I not believe in it. Mb happen some error.

On December 13 2009 09:34 SultanVinegar wrote:

Thus spoke Ra.

On December 13 2009 08:01 CTStalker wrote:
RI1CH for TSL ladder #1

On December 13 2009 10:33 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
(...) And we aren't done yet.

On December 13 2009 10:33 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
just to bounce off of naz's posts:

Online reputation is HUGE. More accurately, how you are known as a gamer is huge.. this won't ruin A2's career but it will certainly put a dampener on it. More of this kind of stuff and he will be out of the community almost entirely.. which is hugely retarded given his abilities.

As I said from the very beginning.. this amount of cash will surface some REALLY strange and crazy things. A2, F91, Pomi? And we aren't done yet.

On December 13 2009 11:36 IdrA wrote:

reputation actually doesnt mean anything. f91 abuses and admits to it only after they have absolute proof of it and half the community still gives him respect for taking responsibility for cheating. people are idiots. the ban from tl events is the only real punishment here, though thats significant enough on its own i suppose.

actually i mean that while reputation may matter people have a tendency to not hold cheating against a player's reputation.

On December 13 2009 11:36 IdrA wrote:
f91 abuses and admits to it only after they have absolute proof of it and half the community still gives him respect for taking responsibility for cheating. people are idiots.

On December 13 2009 12:02 {88}iNcontroL wrote:



O________________________________________________________O;;

On December 13 2009 12:03 purgerinho wrote:
his act doesn't deserve respect but he as a player deserve is whatever you or nayone else said.. all other players had to get in top48 if he had same chances he wouldn't do that so don't judge him so easily or call him a cheater coz of this thing..

On December 13 2009 12:38 IdrA wrote:


hence the "actually i mean"
it was an edit, i misspoke but the point is the same

On December 13 2009 14:37 igotmyown wrote:
I feel a little sympathetic because it's not nearly as bad as cheating to win a game, like maphacking. You have a ladder, and you need to qualify with a high rank. Unfortunately, there are a good number of unfair practices that inflate the points - win trading, dodging, playing only foreigners, farming a poor sucker, and playing lots of crappy players have all come up. Idra seems the only one immune to dropping out of the ladder due to a loss streak.

On December 13 2009 14:37 igotmyown wrote:
I feel a little sympathetic because it's not nearly as bad as cheating to win a game, like maphacking. You have a ladder, and you need to qualify with a high rank. Unfortunately, there are a good number of unfair practices that inflate the points - win trading, dodging, playing only foreigners, farming a poor sucker, and playing lots of crappy players have all come up. Idra seems the only one immune to dropping out of the ladder due to a loss streak.

On December 13 2009 16:58 sMi.MeOw wrote:
didn't even change his own rank from the 2 abuse games...really pointless....

:3

On December 13 2009 12:35 KwarK wrote:

As loathed as I am to agree with Idra I have to here. I can't believe people are saying "yeah, but he admited" it as if it's a defence. If in the heat of the moment someone asks a friend to throw a game to them then half an hour later pms Hot_Bid and says "look, I did something stupid, please ask an admin to remove the points" then I'll overlook that as a lapse of judgement. But that's not what happened here. He tried to cheat his way in and he got caught.

On December 13 2009 12:40 IdrA wrote:

how did he not have the same chance as everyone else

On December 13 2009 21:00 purgerinho wrote:


he had to be in top12 not top48.. yes, it's not fault of anyone else but still..

On December 13 2009 07:29 disciple wrote:
the TSL administration has indeed a very particular set of skills. I'm sure, if ppl just admit their ladder abuse, that will be end of it.

Anyway, good luck

On December 13 2009 23:47 iSCd wrote:


i dont get your morals man!

On December 14 2009 00:39 purgerinho wrote:


well, i'm not like many of you, i can't judge ppl so easily coz of this... i'm sad that chinese players can't play coz they don't lag so much everyone likes to show.. many of top48 played against chinese players to gain points.. isn't it so funny... f91 played liqubition without lag (nony was the only one that felt it but we all know it was a bullshit) against many players...

On December 14 2009 06:12 .risingdragoon wrote:
well he's out already, it was his decision, can't be in top12 means no go for him anyway.

you get nerdy artosis going ohohohmeegod gtfo meee comooonity~~ wtf, posing as rekrul who you foolin?

then bam 10 more disqualifications, instant BLACK EYE with more to come I'm sure

it sucks cus these players playing it honest would've made TSL2 a lot more exciting, especially F91 who has to deal with extraneous rules,and flying out to compete, etc. Any honest person would agree that the no chinese rule is cus of the potential lag BUT also cus if chinese players are allowed in they'd OWN the joint.

TSL2 just got a lot less exciting, but them's the rules.

On December 14 2009 14:58 BroOd wrote:


do you have to leak your annoying nationalism into every thread about this?

On December 14 2009 18:10 SirKibbleX wrote:
I'm saddened because of the disconnect between the purpose of this ladder and its actual methods employed.

The purpose of the ladder is to select the 48 strongest honest Starcraft players who don't cheat out of the entire pool of players. Tragically, the fact remains that external factors make it impossible for this system to actually work. If a large number of mediocre players are using 'ladder-abuse' techniques (which may or may not actually be affecting their in-game performance, i.e. not everyone plays 'auto-wins) to inflate their scores, how can the top 48 reflect the 'strongest' players?

And if players as strong as F91, A2, Pomi, and Yosh aren't in the top 48, hasn't the selection system failed us?

The real tragedy is that the TSL won't be as good as it could have been.

On December 14 2009 18:23 .risingdragoon wrote:


wat da hell you talking about? maybe if you thought about it you'd know that it's kinda hard to be a monolithic chinese nationalist when I'm flying the US colors? why do I have to be labeled? as uncomfortable as this is, I just called it as I saw it.

yeah, I think it was artosis with the bonehead nationalist comment, and I'm trying to make up for it with the "yea I get it, you said that cus of lag reasons /rolleyes." F91 is a draw for me cus I like his style, muthafucka, just like lovett's pvp, and pj's pvz (not so much lx, dunno why) just like how I discovered brat_OK in the last TSL and like his play. Does that make me a russian nationalist now? This is sad as it is already and I think I've been diplomatic, don't you twist things any further.

On December 14 2009 18:43 Schnake wrote:


He is talking about you ignoring the reasons for the ban of Chinese players and focusing on completely irrelevant points, making it look as if you are blindly supporting any Chinese no matter what.

F91 asked to be allowed into TSL on the grounds that he would fly to Taiwan to play the qualifiers and TL gave him an exception. This is not an extraneous rule but serves only the purpose to prevent lag, which is not potential lag but definite as experienced by players over and over again. It's not the players fault but that's how it is.

The acceptance of F91 rather shows that Chinese players would have a legitimate shot in the TSL without lag issues and not that they have been banned because they'd OWN the joint.

On December 14 2009 19:00 .risingdragoon wrote:


I can agree with that. I don't think I or any sensible person would agree with bias, for the better or worse of a player just for some arbitrary reason. For a minute there artosis incensed me. It was unfortunate to me tsl had to shitcan a top player and he took it as some joyous thing.

On December 14 2009 19:45 .risingdragoon wrote:
yea, cheating. you've done it, I've done it, everybody's done it. sometimes out of necessity, sometimes out of convenience. when it's not caught everybody's none the wiser. when it's caught you pay up.

needless to say for the times when it's unnecessary to cheat ability-wise, but it takes place over circumstances, it's a sad thing. all I know is why f91 had to do it, I dunno why the other guys abused the ladder. and I'd like to know cus I don't pretend to be christ and get on my moral pedestal.

On December 14 2009 18:34 SirKibbleX wrote:
The strongest player shouldn't need to cheat because the ideal ladder would be designed in such a way that the strongest player would never need to cheat. Let me be clear, such a system is theoretically, and therefore also in practice, impossible to create. So I'm not trying to BM the TL staff, I'm just saying I'm sad I won't be seeing the best foreigner players playing in the TSL. Why do they have to be such cheaters... : (

On December 14 2009 20:04 .risingdragoon wrote:
I "tolerate" it in thinking cus I understand that people all got it different.

I understand that JayZ had to hustle to make it while Kanye rode the gravy train. I understand cus I know the rules are not perfect so I try to be as flexible as I can in my life, within tolerable boundaries. Shit the justice system is far from perfect, and that affects lives, it destroys lives.

I agree with the DQ, it's to maintain the integrity of the whole thing. It doesn't mean I won't sympathize with circumstances. Is there some rules that says that a person is not suppose to be human about it?

On December 14 2009 20:07 IdrA wrote:
you have yet to describe what circumstances make it acceptable, thats what everyone is questioning

On December 14 2009 20:27 thopol wrote:
What we don't understand is how you can sympathize with the cheaters? It is extremely unprofessional and disrespectful. It is particularly disrespectful to you, the fan. I just can't wrap my mind around what you are saying.

On December 14 2009 20:28 .risingdragoon wrote:
Games to me are just circumstances. Even for everyone with the skill to compete, some days you don't got the fine control so you do an all-in, then people are angry cus they feel cheated.

On December 13 2009 11:36 IdrA wrote:

people are idiots.

On December 17 2009 11:21 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
Some of this shit is ridiculous. Anyone - ANYONE - defending F91 has lost all possible perspective. I personally have nothing against this guy. I am a Zerg fanatic myself, and I love all foreigner Zerg. But, really, let's consider the situation he's in with regards to TSL:

He's Chinese and was flying to Taiwan as a loophole to be allowed to participate in the 'real TSL'. He's effectively playing outside the rules of the 'real TSL' in order to make it up the ladder. You can argue semantics and rules and whatnot, but this really breaks the spirit of the TSL imo. Not just because he's possibly denying a spot to someone who is not at all in any kind of gray area with regards to eligibility, but because of the reasons that Ret put forth.

Now I don't 100% agree with Ret's attitude, but in this case, he is definitely right. The Chinese community and the 'other' foreign community are like two different communities altogether. I personally think that allowing F91 to play in this tournament would have been for the greater good with regards to the foreigner community - not just because the guy is an awesome player and has a lot to bring to the table, but also because his involvement could get other Chinese players and the Chinese community as a whole to 'open up' to TL and the wider SC foreigner community (and of course the same thing happens with TL opening up to the Chinese community).

But practically speaking, the two communities, as of now, are basically separate entities. The other concern, which is NOT a minor concern, is lag. You can't have an epic match with lag, no matter the players.

Anyway, F91 - He's in a rough spot and has to get top 12 in order to not have a timing conflict with some other tournament (see what I did there?). I guess he'll just have to drop participation in that tournament.

Or maybe not. Well F91 surely can make top 12 by just doing his best right? Unfortunately, he didn't. He made his decision. He obviously considered the Chinese tournament to be of equal or greater value in comparison to the TSL. Did he cheat in the Chinese tournament as well? My guess is that he didn't. Unfortunately, it seems like he didn't take the TSL seriously enough to NOT CHEAT in it.

What he did was really unforgivable for so many reasons. Someone in his particular position really ought to be aware of the gravity of their situation. He is a Chinese player playing in a decidedly non-Chinese tournament - an act which could possibly bridge both communities in some way. But instead of setting an example for non-Chinese tournaments, he abuses the ladder. No matter your personal feelings about this guy beforehand, you simply cannot rationalize any regret over him being booted. What he did could scar future attempts at bridging the foreigner communities - not to mention that he disrespected the most prestigious foreigner tournament at the same time.

Anyone who defends any actions by ladder abusers is just pissing on the TSL and, by extension, the foreigner community in general. This is a horrible thing too, since there are so many awesome members in this community.

On December 17 2009 11:27 eXigent. wrote:


dude I think your about 3 days too late for the dramabus...