I have some bad news to share. After speaking with TSL admins who informed me of suspicious games on F91's match list, I spoke with F91 and he has admitted to me that he cheated by asking a friend to give him free wins (the six games after he played TSL-CastrO). I am extremely disappointed that this happened and very sad that one of Duskbin's players cheated in this way. It goes without saying that this sort of behavior cannot be tolerated.
Some of you may wonder why he abused when he was already so high in the ladder and virtually guaranteed a Top 48 spot. F91 needed to qualify for the Top 12 in order for his flight scheduling to work out.
Here is a statement from F91:
I haven't been able to play in the TSL ladder due to the G-League in China. Because of this, I dropped out of the Top 12 and was forced to play with bad equipment in an internet café at 4am before the G-League finals the next day. It was very difficult finding TSL players who would play me, and when I finally played Castro and lost, I was very frustrated and discouraged, so I made a very wrong move to get free wins off my Chinese friend. I am extremely sorry for doing this and will take full responsibility for my actions. I will stop competing in TSL immediately, and I hope someday I can be forgiven for this.
Of course, no circumstances can excuse what happened. DuskBin E-Sports does not tolerate cheating and can no longer support F91 in the TSL. I would also like to apologize again on behalf of Duskbin and F91 for the problems he has caused, especially to those fans who have been rooting for him since day one. It is indeed sad that it has to end in this way.
Nevertheless, we would still like to thank the TeamLiquid Admins for coming up with such an awesome league. I hope other TSL players will take this as a lesson, and we can have a clean and reputable tournament going forward.
EDIT: Thinking about it more, I wonder why he felt like he needed to cheat? I can see the situation: Its 4 in the morning, playing with crappy equipment and getting dodged all the time but all he needed was a couple of good games to be back at the top. He just needed a bit more Patience
Ash you are a good guy appreciate all the hours (days even) we have spent discussing everything about the Chinese participation to TSL. It is clear your heart is in the right place and there are very few people on the planet that have as much dedication to e-sports as you. I'm sad this had to happen to you, and also sad that F91 resorted to this. This post was definitely the right thing to do. Thanks for that.
This sucks i was really looking forward to watching F91 play. At least he was honest about it but i agree that there should be zero tolerance for shit like this
On December 12 2009 09:41 Foreplay wrote: This sucks i was really looking forward to watching F91 play. At least he was honest about it but i agree that there should be zero tolerance for shit like this
qft. At least he didn't make drama about it. I feel bad for him almost.
Its a shame and rather silly to even try to cheat in something like this. With thousands of people f5ing the ladder standings every few hours. Cheating in the top 100 going to get spoted pretty fast. I guess I understand his reasons for trying it, but its still disapointing to see a good player knocked out like this. Worst thing is there 24 hours left in the ladder. He likely could have made top 12 without having to cheat.
There are some players, into the top 48, that did the same thing as F91, but im pretty sure that they will continue playing the league, like if nothing hav happened.
On December 12 2009 10:27 zimz wrote: do internet cafes dont let u bring in ur own mouse and keyboard?
In China yes, pc-bangs are using some special OS = = anyway this has nothing to do with the cheating imo. Wrong is wrong, cheating is cheating... I do feel bad for Chinese fans
why doesnt a progamer like f91 carry around his own keyboard and mouse? i mean he flew all the way to taiwan to play tsl. or the internet cafe dont let u?
EDIT: so in china they wont let you use ur own mouse? ps2/usb port is all plug n play mostly, even in linux i think.
Why did he play legit games against other Chinese players. Don't think they would dodge F91. Playing A- Chinese players won't be as easy as playing A- TSL people though.
I am sad and glad at the same moment because people where annoyed/complained for legitamte reasons, however i am proud that he came out in the open and admitted unlike many other professionals in other sports who cover it up, no comment and just deny it. f91 wish you the best, and im hoping to get to see you in another liquibition because those where the mose enjoyable to watch especially against jf and idra.
yeah so i heard china has esports teams and leagues kinda like korea that are so demanding that a chinese player doesnt even have time to play 200 games in 3 weeks for a $23k event
it seems chinese players improve with older age unlike the korean scene where older = get worst. the chinese players like PJ seem to b still improving.
On December 12 2009 10:53 Liquid`NonY wrote: yeah so i heard china has esports teams and leagues kinda like korea that are so demanding that a chinese player doesnt even have time to play 200 games in 3 weeks for a $23k event
Seriously. Hows that mouse working or did you not get it yet? Im thinking about getting it.
Before losing 3 games to TSL-Castro, he was at 10330, putting him around 12th place. After losing 3 games to TSL-Castro, he was at 9910 pts, bringing him down to around 20th place. I'm guessing a combination of losing about 8 places to TSL-Castro, and having the pressure to have to climb 8 places in 24 hours caused it. It is interesting that he let 3 of the 6 games be under 5 minutes long, one game he lost, and one game was like 45 minutes. Here is his Match List: http://www.iccup.com/matchlist/876823/1x1.html
I really hate cheaters, but I really feel for this guy. The pressure of having to qualify top 12 (even though that's his own fault), and having people avoid you? That sucks...
I'm getting the feeling people avoided him because they were scared of him. His matches are mostly against Koreans, so his rating means more than the rating of someone who has been dodging Koreans. This is a shame.
On December 12 2009 10:53 zimz wrote: it seems chinese players improve with older age unlike the korean scene where older = get worst. the chinese players like PJ seem to b still improving.
I'm sure the older Koreans still improve. It's just that the younger ones improve at a much faster rate and older players can't keep up. But PJ does seem to improve quite fast despite being one of the oldest players around.
im sad that i wont be able to watch F91 play now, i was really looking forward to it :'( even though what he did was wrong its good that he fessed up for what he did
Being a chinese, F91 should not take part in a "no korean no chinese" league at the beginning. Now it's a really "no korean no chinese" league and absolutely sure there is no korean or chinese can win this. Well, great league, good game, foreigner gosu.
What was it that talked about how the pro Chinese players dont relaly 'fit in' with the other foreigners? I think it was ret or IdrA in the Artosis interview.
Thought of that when I read this (not that other foreigners dont cheat).
Sucks for him but meh, shoulda just took it like a man imo.
There is no excuse for cheating. At least the top 48 will be thrilled by this.
F91 blew an awesome opportunity.
On December 12 2009 10:53 Liquid`NonY wrote: yeah so i heard china has esports teams and leagues kinda like korea that are so demanding that a chinese player doesnt even have time to play 200 games in 3 weeks for a $23k event
NonY, you always know how to bring a smile to my face. Gold.
Aww man i had looked so much forward to a Idra f91 rematch oh well, guess bridge building between foreign scene and chinese scene will happen some other way..
On December 12 2009 11:08 Athos wrote: I really don't blame F91 for cheating because it really was his only option at that point. Yes it was wrong, but what else could he have done. Sad.
On December 12 2009 11:08 Athos wrote: Yes it was wrong, but what else could he have done.
Ooooooooook it's great that everyone can be so civil, but this is going too far. He could have played more legit games. I can't believe that he really took every possible opportunity to play as many TSL games as possible. Well, he's not even claiming that. It's just clear that he didn't. Then when his effort wasn't enough, he wanted the reward anyway. And with his skill level, that reward could very well have been thousands of dollars.
He Cheated In A Twenty Three Thousand Dollar Event ...
On December 12 2009 11:08 Athos wrote: Yes it was wrong, but what else could he have done.
Ooooooooook it's great that everyone can be so civil, but this is going too far. He could have played more legit games. I can't believe that he really took every possible opportunity to play as many TSL games as possible. Well, he's not even claiming that. It's just clear that he didn't. Then when his effort wasn't enough, he wanted the reward anyway. And with his skill level, that reward could very well have been thousands of dollars.
He Cheated In A Twenty Three Thousand Dollar Event ...
Cheated $23,000
so can u tell me what's the exactly definition of CHEAT In This Twenty Three Thousand Dollar Event ?
On December 12 2009 11:08 Athos wrote: Yes it was wrong, but what else could he have done.
Ooooooooook it's great that everyone can be so civil, but this is going too far. He could have played more legit games. I can't believe that he really took every possible opportunity to play as many TSL games as possible. Well, he's not even claiming that. It's just clear that he didn't. Then when his effort wasn't enough, he wanted the reward anyway. And with his skill level, that reward could very well have been thousands of dollars.
He Cheated In A Twenty Three Thousand Dollar Event ...
Cheated $23,000
so can u tell me what's the exactly definition of CHEAT In This Twenty Three Thousand Dollar Event ?
Knowingly breaking the rules in order to get an unfair advantage over other ladder participants?
He admitted it. He said he takes full responsibility and has no dispute. His manager apologized. HOW THE FUCK do people bark at the TSL admins? How the hell is there even a discussion beyond "what a shame" and "why'd he do that?"
On December 12 2009 11:08 Athos wrote: I really don't blame F91 for cheating because it really was his only option at that point. Yes it was wrong, but what else could he have done. Sad.
Played Koreans like every other player who has trouble getting games. Look at White-Ra's/Idra's records.
On December 12 2009 11:38 Liquid`NonY wrote: since your question is not relevant to the discussion, im gonna assume you're trying to swindle some free english lessons out of me. not gonna happen
On December 12 2009 11:38 Liquid`NonY wrote: since your question is not relevant to the discussion, im gonna assume you're trying to swindle some free english lessons out of me. not gonna happen
Oh thats really sad... Glad he was upfront about it, and didn't try to deny it to the grave. The sad thing is that he really is skillful enough to be facing koreans like Kennigit said, but I think shitty equipment played a part in why he didn't have the confidence to. It's pretty big of him knowing how unforgiving this community is sometimes but it still doesn't change what he did, or tried to do...
Nony, seriously, are you still sore about getting your ass whipped by F91 in Liquibition? I can't find any other reason why you always pop up when something happened to F91 or even someone discussed about F91. What F91 has done was horrible and he owned up his mistake so why dont you pack up your sarcastic crap and leave the guy alone? After all he still kicked your @ss. Now you should be quiet and thank god for not having to face him in TSL2.
On December 12 2009 12:04 doggfrenzy wrote: ericyang, stop trying to argue whether F91 cheated. HE DID! Ash admitted it and F91 admitted. stop making yourself a laughing stock
Look at the your post above that...Ironic isn't it.
And yeah I'm really saddened by this I wanted to watch him play so bad .
On December 12 2009 12:00 doggfrenzy wrote: Nony, seriously, are you still sore about getting your ass whipped by F91 in Liquibition? I can't find any other reason why you always pop up when something happened to F91 or even someone discussed about F91. What F91 has done was horrible and he owned up his mistake so why dont you pack up your sarcastic crap and leave the guy alone? After all he still kicked your @ss. Now you should be quiet and thank god for not having to face him in TSL2.
On December 12 2009 06:39 ret wrote: I'm not kidding. I saw estro players play iccup against IpromiseU all the time. And saw reps of him. He is Chinese and protoss 100% ( said so in multiple games) and f91 just got 3 really short games vs his terran, so it can't really be any more obvious. Highly amusing. :D
I'm not sure if hes chinese but I've just asked F91 personally if he knows that guy and f91 denied. I'll get replays from him later but I don't think hes stupid enough to cheat on two 3 mins games.
yeah, like everyone else i'm glad he was up front about it too.
On December 12 2009 12:04 doggfrenzy wrote: ericyang, stop trying to argue whether F91 cheated. HE DID! Ash admitted it and F91 admitted. stop making yourself a laughing stock
Look at the your post above that...Ironic isn't it.
And yeah I'm really saddened by this I wanted to watch him play so bad .
it's pretty incredible how lightly some people are taking this, it's pretty disgusting how image drives the community in the face of such malicious behavior.
F91 cheated, on purpose, initially lied about it, and then came clean.
He deserves getting banned from TSL and probably other events, those kind of actions cannot be condoned.
It's just funny the amount of people defending him, we need to use the same standards for cheaters regardless of their persona. There's no reason F91 should get treated differently than someone like Dino (who cheated in a money event as well), or anybody else.
On December 12 2009 12:00 doggfrenzy wrote: Nony, seriously, are you still sore about getting your ass whipped by F91 in Liquibition? I can't find any other reason why you always pop up when something happened to F91 or even someone discussed about F91. What F91 has done was horrible and he owned up his mistake so why dont you pack up your sarcastic crap and leave the guy alone? After all he still kicked your @ss. Now you should be quiet and thank god for not having to face him in TSL2.
You seem to be one of those people.... I would be surprised if most of the other players don't feel the same way Nony does. Heck, you should have read Artosis's post.
Edit:also, by your logic, aren't you just mad that F91 is out because you are also from China?
On December 12 2009 12:39 JiYan wrote: iono about you guys, but im really pleased with f91 for taking responsibility for his actions
What if he had games thrown in a more convincing manner? And then didn't get caught? Would he still take responsibility? Taking responsibility after getting caught seems like damage control, like pleading guilty when the evidence is overwhelming. EDIT: But props to Ash.
I don't see anything particularly honorable about F91's actions, he was caught THEN admitted to it. With such blatant cheating there was no way he could have even argued it, he had no other choice. This isn't him being mature about it. Ash is a different story, he's handled this as elegantly and maturely as can be asked of anyone. Big props to Ash, class act.
Also, to the fools implying that Nony is somehow taking jabs at F91 because of his loss ages ago... one could just as easily come up with an equally retarded theory like F91 purposely did this to drop out because he feared getting raped by Idra for revenge. Idra is #1 on the ladder, F91 was struggling to stay top 12... yeah. Both above theories are bullshit, let's not delve there again.
On December 12 2009 12:00 doggfrenzy wrote: Nony, seriously, are you still sore about getting your ass whipped by F91 in Liquibition? I can't find any other reason why you always pop up when something happened to F91 or even someone discussed about F91. What F91 has done was horrible and he owned up his mistake so why dont you pack up your sarcastic crap and leave the guy alone? After all he still kicked your @ss. Now you should be quiet and thank god for not having to face him in TSL2.
Liquibition didn't bother me much haha. That PGL tournament in Chengdu, now that sucked. Don't remember if I played F91 though. . . and the Chinese people were great, and are good players. I'm pretty sure F91 has done a stuff and hasn't won it all, but I'm not there to make comments for it. I have nothing against him until now -- his play is good, his manner was good, and the lag isn't his fault.
I'm not antagonizing F91 here. Who it is doesn't matter to me. The point is that the community is too soft on cheaters. And it has only gotten worse over the years. The community ought to have a bit more self-respect, and TL.net members in particular since this is a TL.net event. Cheating is a slap in the face, especially to F91's fans/supporters. Civility is fine, but instant forgiveness and sympathy for his situation is just a bit too far.
On December 12 2009 12:39 JiYan wrote: iono about you guys, but im really pleased with f91 for taking responsibility for his actions
if by that you mean iccup correctly accusing f91 of abusing and ash withdrawing him from the league then yes, i am pleased with f91 taking responsibility for his actions.
On December 12 2009 12:00 doggfrenzy wrote: Nony, seriously, are you still sore about getting your ass whipped by F91 in Liquibition? I can't find any other reason why you always pop up when something happened to F91 or even someone discussed about F91. What F91 has done was horrible and he owned up his mistake so why dont you pack up your sarcastic crap and leave the guy alone? After all he still kicked your @ss. Now you should be quiet and thank god for not having to face him in TSL2.
Look, I know China got abused pretty badly by pretty much everyone else in the world in the late 19th and early 20th Century but seriously, you have to move on. Stop with the anger towards us whities.
EPT
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