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Please remember that while this thread is for QQ and venting about the game, racism is not tolerated here on LD. |
On July 08 2013 15:36 ReignSupreme. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 15:26 Myrddraal wrote:On July 08 2013 14:32 EvilTeletubby wrote:On July 08 2013 14:07 Mithhaike wrote:On July 08 2013 12:29 Excludos wrote:On July 08 2013 11:54 Belisarius wrote:On July 08 2013 11:14 Excludos wrote:On July 08 2013 09:52 Belisarius wrote:On July 08 2013 09:34 Excludos wrote:On July 08 2013 01:50 shizaep wrote:
People that are like, "omg finish fast plz. plz finish" and then proceed to vigorously defend their high ground, try to push out their lanes and get kills.
Bro, that is not a time to say "finish plz." Every pub game I have at least one douchebag that does that. If you're going to "give up" like that, camp your fountain. Otherwise, don't be a retard and type that shit in all chat. And then they mock you for not being able to finish... In one game, I said "If you're asking us to finish, why are you defending?" and I kid you not, the answer was "Just cuz I say FF doesnt mean I let you win". That's a fairly normal response. If the game is unwinnable but the enemy's carries refuse to come out of jungle coz gotta get that second rapier, "hurry up" doesn't necessarily mean "I solemnly swear to afk fountain." It just means "stop farming and come win. I would prefer to die to heroes than watch my towers die to creeps over the course of 20 more minutes." If you say ff, and then proceed to defend your T3 with everything you got, then you're being a douche. You're attempting to bait your opponents into switching a tactics that work for them. If you honestly thought the game had zero chance of being winable, then why bother continue playing it? You're not going to learn anything more in it, and you're certainly not having a good time. Equivalent of this would be to write "gg" in sc2, and then continue playing till your last building dies. Sure, except it's one player saying "gg" when there's 4 other players on his team who didn't say anything. That parallel is only relevant in stack vs.stack. Manipulating tactics? You're giving the pub hivemind way too much credit. Also, if you chill at fountain and the other team continues to take their sweet time winning, you'll get an afk abandon. That's a pretty strong incentive to go back to the fights. Plus, who listens to the other team in a pub anyway? Chances are they've got a guy who calls gg after first blood. That doesn't mean the rest agree. If it's at a stage where everyone does agree, the game is usually so blatantly lost that the enemy carry could 1v5 fountain dive while the t3s are up and it wouldn't matter. There is a pretty big difference between "you" and "team. If you say gg, I expect you to give up. Not the rest of your team. You don't just start defending with everything you got and say "doesn't mean I'm going to let you win", that's just childish. I do know about the abandon factor. But surely you should be able to figure a way around that which doesn't include constantly sending illuminates down the ramp while screaming "End ff ffs noobs!"? You expect wrong. When I ask people to end fast,it usually means their so far ahead they will win on the next push, instead they decide to go back to farming for no apparent reason. This is a waste of time for both you and me. Even when I ask people to end fast, it doesn't mean you get a free win. It basically means to stop wasting time and come end us, we won't go down without a fight though. Where's the fun when people just give up and roll over to die? I rather die in a fight & lose the ancient then to just sit in fountain waiting for creeps to end me. You call my behaviour childish? I call it valor. The other team's decision to not end the game and instead go back to farming is what I call childish and a huge waste of time. Respect your opponents enough to give him the finishing blow instead of toying around with him. Wait, so you basically don't think that "gg" or "fast finish" is a concession then? I think you grossly misunderstand the concept of why people say it. Also, isn't it counter-intuitive that you complain about them 'wasting your time' by not pushing, but it's ok to "fight them to the end even though you know you lost"? Isn't that the SAME EXACT THING?!? :-\ Hm I can understand the want to go out in a final battle, but at the same time I agree that the end result will be exactly the same. I think the best way to act, assuming you are not one to concede and idle in the fountain, would be to go for one last push as a team and have a glorious last stand that way. I think that what Mithhaike is saying is pretending to be honorable, but really he wants them to come into his base where he might have a slightly better chance to win in which case it is just as lame as sitting back and farming. Of course, there is always the chance that you go for your final push, the other team wipes you and still continues to farm, but by this time I am assuming you are already 2-3 rax down, and it shouldn't take too long for the mega creeps to finish the job while everyone is dead. You're assuming that your team is capable of doing anything. If the enemy team has 2rax down, your team has one person already chilling in fountain practically afk yet the enemy team is farming jungle/roshan just to pad their end game stats for the next 5mins, it's super annoying
Not really, I mean sure, if you dont want to lose during your final push, and both waves are pushing in you'll need to leave someone behind to defend and if you have 1 afker that means you are only pushing out with 3. What else are you gonna do though?
The way I see it you only have three options, afk and let the creeps take your ancient (fastest finish, least interesting ending), defend until the enemy finally decides to put you out of your misery (longest finish, possibly most interesting, depending on how far ahead the enemy is) or attempt one final push (moderate finish depending on whether the other team pushes or not, possibly interesting finish depending on how far behind you are).
Edit: The thing is, if you really want to hold out for that tiny chance of winning, you are kinda hoping that the enemy will make huge mistakes and overextend, but if they are sitting back and farming when they could just win, that slight chance is getting smaller by the second, why not just attempt to push out and get it over with?
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Nobody is holding out to win at this point. If you're calling ff, the game should be unwinnable.
The situation in which all of this is relevant is when the game is utterly over, with multiple rax down or at least an unstoppable carry who's come out of jungle with a billion gpm. Your team knows it's over but has standard pub coordination, which means everyone is just dicking around silently killing creeps until it ends. You're unlikely to convince them all to do anything except continue killing creeps, so what should you, individually, do?
Pushing out requires talking your whole team to come with you, which is pretty unlikely. If they don't you're just feeding as a 1 or 2 or whatever. If your team is coordinated enough to push out in a blaze of glory they're probably coordinated enough to 5-man DC or at least properly afk fountain, and those are better options if they can be done.
Assuming your team isn't that coordinated, I think it's a legitimate position to ask the bad guys to man up and come finish it.
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On July 08 2013 16:18 Belisarius wrote:
Nobody is holding out to win at this point. If you're calling ff, the game should be unwinnable.
The situation in which all of this is relevant is when the game is utterly over, with multiple rax down or at least an unstoppable carry who's come out of jungle with a billion gpm. Your team knows it's over but has standard pub coordination, which means everyone is just dicking around silently killing creeps until it ends. You're unlikely to convince them all to do anything except continue killing creeps, so what should you, individually, do?
Pushing out requires talking your whole team to come with you, which is pretty unlikely. If they don't you're just feeding as a 1 or 2 or whatever. If your team is coordinated enough to push out in a blaze of glory they're probably coordinated enough to 5-man DC or at least properly afk fountain, and those are better options if they can be done.
Assuming your team isn't that coordinated, I think it's a legitimate position to ask the bad guys to man up and come finish it.
Yeah, this is true, as an individual you have limited control, it just annoys me when players from either side stall out the game unnecessarily. Ideally everyone would make the same decision, but as you said this is very rarely the case.
I have nothing against asking to finish, as I usually try to grant people a quick finish if they ask, but you get the exact same problem, where the rest of your team might not finish, and then if the rest of their team defends, suddenly you can find yourself feeding when trying to finnish. It's just a shitty situation all round.
Though if someone asks me to finnish, I try to (solo or otherwise) and they do try to defend, I am less likely to give them the quick finish they asked for.
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Our solo mid SM goes Skadi as his second item after force staff ... I don't even know.
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So im having finals .took ONE hour off to cool my mind and play dota. and this happens http://dotabuff.com/matches/237782611
Im spectre
i asked to go bot , with any support since i last picked as we had no real carry. and this leshrac/omni and timber rush bot and say "we bot" and INVOKER went offlane and that ;eft me to mid against pudge . which i did well .these "ruski friends" were apparently feeding hard bot but i noticed alchmist didnt have as much farm and mine was good. but then 20 mins in , ALL outer towers down and we hadnt even taken ONE. timber fed like crazy.and omni? not even one HEAL OR REPEL on me . all he said was " m carry" and he made armlet and yasha. in the end we obviously lost despite my best efforts . and i was left with this question. is this our fate ? and is it worth it? that solo que is THIS BAD.no communication , no teamwork. and whats worst is that i was willing to compromise even i was cool with going mid etc even let omni "farm" my creeps. top it all opponents are like " haha ez gaem np" ..and the reason why i couldnt play with friends is simply that there was a time issue its kinda early where i am. /hard life.
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Russian Federation748 Posts
You expect wrong. When I ask people to end fast,it usually means their so far ahead they will win on the next push, instead they decide to go back to farming for no apparent reason. This is a waste of time for both you and me.
Even when I ask people to end fast, it doesn't mean you get a free win. It basically means to stop wasting time and come end us, we won't go down without a fight though. Where's the fun when people just give up and roll over to die? I rather die in a fight & lose the ancient then to just sit in fountain waiting for creeps to end me.
You call my behaviour childish? I call it valor.
The other team's decision to not end the game and instead go back to farming is what I call childish and a huge waste of time. Respect your opponents enough to give him the finishing blow instead of toying around with him.
Your behaviour is childish because it's not adapted to the standard pub mentality and is ineffective. What you don't take into account is that the opposite heroes are likely not going to play as a team and most of the time will choose a middle ground between pushing and farming, that is, some heroes will try to push while others will not. The pushing heroes will have a hard time if they have to push against a full team, while if everyone stops defending even one hero is enough to quickly grab a pair of raxes.
Yes, that antimage trying to get fully equipped instead of helping his four teammates push uphill is a moron, but it's no reason to waste everyone's time.
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I know you can forfeit games now when all 5 players leave (just disc don't abandon) then the throne blows up.
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On July 07 2013 04:56 Jetaap wrote:
So you flamed someone for being a noob after getting aghanim on gyro...
I was supposed to be support gyro because everybody else picked a carry, so we had a brood, AM, and Ursa. And the Shadow Shaman said "I don't know how to play support," and I had seen pro teams run support gyro before build agh's so I figured I'd just do that. I was not expecting everybody to feed and group as 4 and sit back a mile from any creep waves. I became the carry solely because I was the only one who would stay in XP range and understand to run when their team was missing
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On July 08 2013 14:32 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 14:07 Mithhaike wrote:On July 08 2013 12:29 Excludos wrote:On July 08 2013 11:54 Belisarius wrote:On July 08 2013 11:14 Excludos wrote:On July 08 2013 09:52 Belisarius wrote:On July 08 2013 09:34 Excludos wrote:On July 08 2013 01:50 shizaep wrote:
People that are like, "omg finish fast plz. plz finish" and then proceed to vigorously defend their high ground, try to push out their lanes and get kills.
Bro, that is not a time to say "finish plz." Every pub game I have at least one douchebag that does that. If you're going to "give up" like that, camp your fountain. Otherwise, don't be a retard and type that shit in all chat. And then they mock you for not being able to finish... In one game, I said "If you're asking us to finish, why are you defending?" and I kid you not, the answer was "Just cuz I say FF doesnt mean I let you win". That's a fairly normal response. If the game is unwinnable but the enemy's carries refuse to come out of jungle coz gotta get that second rapier, "hurry up" doesn't necessarily mean "I solemnly swear to afk fountain." It just means "stop farming and come win. I would prefer to die to heroes than watch my towers die to creeps over the course of 20 more minutes." If you say ff, and then proceed to defend your T3 with everything you got, then you're being a douche. You're attempting to bait your opponents into switching a tactics that work for them. If you honestly thought the game had zero chance of being winable, then why bother continue playing it? You're not going to learn anything more in it, and you're certainly not having a good time. Equivalent of this would be to write "gg" in sc2, and then continue playing till your last building dies. Sure, except it's one player saying "gg" when there's 4 other players on his team who didn't say anything. That parallel is only relevant in stack vs.stack. Manipulating tactics? You're giving the pub hivemind way too much credit. Also, if you chill at fountain and the other team continues to take their sweet time winning, you'll get an afk abandon. That's a pretty strong incentive to go back to the fights. Plus, who listens to the other team in a pub anyway? Chances are they've got a guy who calls gg after first blood. That doesn't mean the rest agree. If it's at a stage where everyone does agree, the game is usually so blatantly lost that the enemy carry could 1v5 fountain dive while the t3s are up and it wouldn't matter. There is a pretty big difference between "you" and "team. If you say gg, I expect you to give up. Not the rest of your team. You don't just start defending with everything you got and say "doesn't mean I'm going to let you win", that's just childish. I do know about the abandon factor. But surely you should be able to figure a way around that which doesn't include constantly sending illuminates down the ramp while screaming "End ff ffs noobs!"? You expect wrong. When I ask people to end fast,it usually means their so far ahead they will win on the next push, instead they decide to go back to farming for no apparent reason. This is a waste of time for both you and me. Even when I ask people to end fast, it doesn't mean you get a free win. It basically means to stop wasting time and come end us, we won't go down without a fight though. Where's the fun when people just give up and roll over to die? I rather die in a fight & lose the ancient then to just sit in fountain waiting for creeps to end me. You call my behaviour childish? I call it valor. The other team's decision to not end the game and instead go back to farming is what I call childish and a huge waste of time. Respect your opponents enough to give him the finishing blow instead of toying around with him. Wait, so you basically don't think that "gg" or "fast finish" is a concession then? I think you grossly misunderstand the concept of why people say it. Also, isn't it counter-intuitive that you complain about them 'wasting your time' by not pushing, but it's ok to "fight them to the end even though you know you lost"? Isn't that the SAME EXACT THING?!? :-\
It's the process that matters to the end.
Yes I can just afk in fountain till it's over, or I can continue to fight even though I KNOW I am going to lose. Their probably so fat that a look in my direction will blow me up, regardless, I will continue to fight.
There's a huge difference in asking them to end fast and just giving up. I know I am about to lose, but it's on the enemy team to MAKE me lose(by killing the ancient). I have no desire to let fking creeps kill my throne if I can help it. I am not so useless as to be defenseless vs NPC creeps.
If I wanted to press a surrender button, I would go to HoN or something where we can start pressing the concede button on the 15th minutes onwards.
As for "gg" or "fast finish" is a concession? Yes I agree they are a concession in a professional game on a professional team. Once you call gg, it's over.
This is a pub though, like I said, I do not mind having my throne destroyed by human players, but being destroyed by NPC creeps just irks me. It's like the efforts I've made trying to win this game matters not, deserve no respect and my end is to come at the hand of fricking NPC creeps. This shows disrespect to the opponent.
You want to kill my throne? You need to come and kill it in person. The creeps aren't going to do it if I can help it. That's the meaning behind "end fast" in my opinion.
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If you call "gg" or "finish plz" and I see you defending, it's time for my next big item.
Because I just disagree with your opinion that the game is already over, and since you dont concede - I should make sure that I dont lose the game with diving into your full team under your towers.
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On July 08 2013 14:07 Mithhaike wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 12:29 Excludos wrote:On July 08 2013 11:54 Belisarius wrote:On July 08 2013 11:14 Excludos wrote:On July 08 2013 09:52 Belisarius wrote:On July 08 2013 09:34 Excludos wrote:On July 08 2013 01:50 shizaep wrote:
People that are like, "omg finish fast plz. plz finish" and then proceed to vigorously defend their high ground, try to push out their lanes and get kills.
Bro, that is not a time to say "finish plz." Every pub game I have at least one douchebag that does that. If you're going to "give up" like that, camp your fountain. Otherwise, don't be a retard and type that shit in all chat. And then they mock you for not being able to finish... In one game, I said "If you're asking us to finish, why are you defending?" and I kid you not, the answer was "Just cuz I say FF doesnt mean I let you win". That's a fairly normal response. If the game is unwinnable but the enemy's carries refuse to come out of jungle coz gotta get that second rapier, "hurry up" doesn't necessarily mean "I solemnly swear to afk fountain." It just means "stop farming and come win. I would prefer to die to heroes than watch my towers die to creeps over the course of 20 more minutes." If you say ff, and then proceed to defend your T3 with everything you got, then you're being a douche. You're attempting to bait your opponents into switching a tactics that work for them. If you honestly thought the game had zero chance of being winable, then why bother continue playing it? You're not going to learn anything more in it, and you're certainly not having a good time. Equivalent of this would be to write "gg" in sc2, and then continue playing till your last building dies. Sure, except it's one player saying "gg" when there's 4 other players on his team who didn't say anything. That parallel is only relevant in stack vs.stack. Manipulating tactics? You're giving the pub hivemind way too much credit. Also, if you chill at fountain and the other team continues to take their sweet time winning, you'll get an afk abandon. That's a pretty strong incentive to go back to the fights. Plus, who listens to the other team in a pub anyway? Chances are they've got a guy who calls gg after first blood. That doesn't mean the rest agree. If it's at a stage where everyone does agree, the game is usually so blatantly lost that the enemy carry could 1v5 fountain dive while the t3s are up and it wouldn't matter. There is a pretty big difference between "you" and "team. If you say gg, I expect you to give up. Not the rest of your team. You don't just start defending with everything you got and say "doesn't mean I'm going to let you win", that's just childish. I do know about the abandon factor. But surely you should be able to figure a way around that which doesn't include constantly sending illuminates down the ramp while screaming "End ff ffs noobs!"? You expect wrong. When I ask people to end fast,it usually means their so far ahead they will win on the next push, instead they decide to go back to farming for no apparent reason. This is a waste of time for both you and me. Even when I ask people to end fast, it doesn't mean you get a free win. It basically means to stop wasting time and come end us, we won't go down without a fight though. Where's the fun when people just give up and roll over to die? I rather die in a fight & lose the ancient then to just sit in fountain waiting for creeps to end me. You call my behaviour childish? I call it valor. The other team's decision to not end the game and instead go back to farming is what I call childish and a huge waste of time. Respect your opponents enough to give him the finishing blow instead of toying around with him.
If nothing else, you have a very warped sense of what Valor means..
I understand it can be a pain to sit inside your base for 20 minutes without anything happening, because the enemy rather farm than finish when they are far far ahead. But you need to understand that when you say "fast finish", you want the enemy to finish fast. Why do you then defend with everything you have? You said it yourself, you want the game to be over. You're literally doing the opposite of what you yourself want. You're whining over the enemy team not finishing, and then doing everything you can to not let them finish. If they don't think they can take the throne, guess what? They go back to farm.
If there really is a dick on the other team who just want to 6 slot instead of actually playing the game, you defending is still not going to help the remaining 4 players on the enemy team to finish. In fact, they're probably not going to be able to. What you should do instead, like people have mentioned, if you really want to go out with a bang, is to smoke up and/or go out and try to pick them off. This will force a response from them in one way or another. If nothing else, it will give them an incentive to finish the game now that all five of you are dead.
The third option is that you still think the game is winnable, but you're behind a bit. Saying ff in this case is a complete dick move as all you're hoping to do is to make the enemy push stupidly and do a mistake, letting you get back into the game. This is basically you trying to make up for the lack of skills by aggravating the enemy team, and this is what it will look like to anyone when you write "ff" and then proceed to toss lvl 4 illuminate down the ramp every time there's a creep wave.
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On July 08 2013 21:05 BigAsia wrote:
I know you can forfeit games now when all 5 players leave (just disc don't abandon) then the throne blows up.
This takes a lot of faith on the rest of your team. No way I'd just disconnect hoping the other four doing the same thing. LPQ sucks way too much for that.
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You know those games where people seem to gladly throw away the game just to fuck you in particular in the ass? Like, 3 people running in to 5 just to blow all their ults on your face and die, or disengaging from a lost fight, then instantly re-engaging as soon as your BKB runs out and then wiping.
i don't understand dota
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Havent played dota for about a month and a half...queue for game.
WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU SEARCH FOR GAMES ON THE SEA SERVER FROM RUSSIA?. OF COURSE YOU WILL HAVE 500 LAG YOU FUCKING IDIOT.
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On July 08 2013 22:34 dartoo wrote:
Havent played dota for about a month and a half...queue for game.
WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU SEARCH FOR GAMES ON THE SEA SERVER FROM RUSSIA?. OF COURSE YOU WILL HAVE 500 LAG YOU FUCKING IDIOT.
сука blat america fuck noob
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On July 08 2013 22:34 dartoo wrote:
Havent played dota for about a month and a half...queue for game.
WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU SEARCH FOR GAMES ON THE SEA SERVER FROM RUSSIA?. OF COURSE YOU WILL HAVE 500 LAG YOU FUCKING IDIOT.
I don't really get these complaints:
These are the servers:
http://trog.qgl.org/up/1301/dota-aus.jpg
This is Russia:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Russia_Empire_1900.PNG
So... It might very well be that this Sea server was closest to this guys home or at least tied for first place with US east and the actual Russian server....
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What annoyes me with the server layout is that the server I have best ping on, I can't use because its the Russian one. While the one I'm using (eu west) is filled with russians because a lot of them have better ping to that.
You just can't win 
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Server routing isn't as simple as comparing the proximity of two places, it often goes through a few other countries before it actually gets to its' location, especially in Asia.
It's a pretty big problem with Australian players trying to queue on SEA servers. Some get good ping, some get 400-500+ because of the routing, while they get less to US West servers, which are geographically further away.
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On July 08 2013 22:11 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 21:05 BigAsia wrote:
I know you can forfeit games now when all 5 players leave (just disc don't abandon) then the throne blows up. This takes a lot of faith on the rest of your team. No way I'd just disconnect hoping the other four doing the same thing. LPQ sucks way too much for that.
I had that happen (with a team of 5 randoms) once. But the communication in the team was great from the start, and we discussed what we could've done better for 5mins or something after we all thought we were going to lose and before we left.
Keep in mind that the game ends ~1minute after the last person on your team left, so just agree to reconnect after 3-4min if the game is still open.
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