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Please remember that while this thread is for QQ and venting about the game, racism is not tolerated here on LD. |
Well, how else would carries exist? Not having bkb would completely change dota, to the point where it would be unrecognizable
Edit: In response to
On June 26 2013 18:38 Quotidian wrote:
BKB is such a dumb fucking item, and it really should not be in a game like this. The fact that you can buy an item that completely negates a significant portion of the hero pool is just awful game design. And then there's the fact that the conditions of the item itself is confusing too. And Blitz Dota agrees with me, so there
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carrys would exist just fine, you'd just have to be a better player and actually worry about positioning. That was Blitz's objection to the item, that it completely negates the need for good positional play
I think it's a huge misconception that BKB is such an important item that it basically defines DOTA, which is what you seem to suggest
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On June 26 2013 18:38 Quotidian wrote:
BKB is such a dumb fucking item, and it really should not be in a game like this. The fact that you can buy an item that completely negates a significant portion of the hero pool is just awful game design. And then there's the fact that the conditions of the item itself is confusing too. And Blitz Dota agrees with me, so there
If it didn't exist, every game would be both teams with 5 stuns because there's no drawbacks.
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On June 26 2013 19:11 SXGCoil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 18:38 Quotidian wrote:
BKB is such a dumb fucking item, and it really should not be in a game like this. The fact that you can buy an item that completely negates a significant portion of the hero pool is just awful game design. And then there's the fact that the conditions of the item itself is confusing too. And Blitz Dota agrees with me, so there If it didn't exist, every game would be both teams with 5 stuns because there's no drawbacks.
so?
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The game would be very boring. Only heroes with disables would be picked, carries would get thrown out the window and it really wouldn't be fun at all to watch or play.
At least try to find some arguments against bkb, something better than "so?"
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^ Looks like someone got killed by a BKBd Carry. >_>
Incze is right. There's nothing inherently wrong with BKB. Removing it would make heroes like Lion and Shadow Shaman overpowered as hell. Especially if they built Euls and sheepstick as well.
Edit: Actually Quotidian...did you start off on DOTA-like games by playing LoL? Knew I'd seen your name before so I glanced at your post history and remembered you were the one decrying the losing gold on death mechanic and the "poor design" of DOTA for new players.
If you haven't played LoL in all seriousness I'd suggest giving it a try. Been playing a little myself and it might well be more to your taste. Some of your anti-DOTA complaints aren't issues there.
On June 26 2013 14:18 CeriseCherries wrote:
ok sidelane invoker pick is bad but not horrible i guess followed by a "support" zeus pick, no wards, 35 min mana boots, ogre club, null talisman, void stone. WHAT ARE YOU BUILDING
Zeus Aghanims + Dagon + Refresher in parallel build new meta!
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On June 26 2013 20:06 -Celestial- wrote:
^ Looks like someone got killed by a BKBd Carry. >_>
Incze is right. There's nothing inherently wrong with BKB. Removing it would make heroes like Lion and Shadow Shaman overpowered as hell. Especially if they built Euls and sheepstick as well.
Edit: Actually Quotidian...did you start off on DOTA-like games by playing LoL? Knew I'd seen your name before so I glanced at your post history and remembered you were the one decrying the losing gold on death mechanic and the "poor design" of DOTA for new players.
If you haven't played LoL in all seriousness I'd suggest giving it a try. Been playing a little myself and it might well be more to your taste. Some of your anti-DOTA complaints aren't issues there.
More like ^ played Jakiro and at a certain point in the game none of his spells did anything to anyone anymore >_>
people saying that removing BKB would make certain heroes overpowered aren't using their head. It would mean 1) certain things would have to be rebalanced - you wouldn't put stuns on high damage heroes for instance, so there would be bigger trade-offs by picking disablers and 2) positioning would matter more, so the better coordinated team would win engagements.
BKB is a symptom of a game designer who basically just gave up trying to balance heroes and instead said "fuck it, I'm adding this thing negates heroes completely, because designing a game properly seems to be too hard for me." And then on top of that, there's the weird, inconsistent rules concerning what BKB does and does not block, which you have to dig trough a wiki page to figure out. How anybody can defend the item - at least in its current form - is weird as fuck.
For all intents and purposes I started off on Dota and LOL at the same time. LOL is an even worse game, but for different reasons. So, no.. LOL is not an alternative.
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I definitely agree that some spells arbitrarily going through BKB is bullshit. What makes RP go through BKB but not Ravage? it is a mystery
at the very least, specify in the spells' description "goes through magic immunity"
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I don't have any problems with what works through bkb or not and i only play since October. I feel it's much more straightforward than people claim (arguably I used to be a referee in MtG so my conception of straightforward might be lower than the average)
As for how to counter it... stun him beforehand, stun someone else, buy a ghost scepter (seriously this item is so good on supports...) euls yourself...
There's a lot of solutions and I didn't even mention Beastmater/Batrider/Enigma yet.
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On June 26 2013 21:05 hooahah wrote:
I definitely agree that some spells arbitrarily going through BKB is bullshit. What makes RP go through BKB but not Ravage? it is a mystery
at the very least, specify in the spells' description "goes through magic immunity"
Generally all spells that you can't skill at level 1, read ultimates, can at least partially pierce BKB ( I don't really know how stuff like Lich ult stunning but not doing damage works). Ravage however used to be invisible proxy units casting impale(?) in wc3, thus not an ultimate per se which makes BKB effective against it.
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BKB is fucking awesome, never seen anyone whine about it before.
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*click ready* "alright, g2g brb 10 min"
Seriously. This is starting to piss me off. If you click ready, you're suppose to be, you know, ready? Not afk for the entire random draft phase and then another 4 minutes so you can start out as ursa on lvl 1 when everyone else is lvl 4. Just leave if that happens. I get emergencies, but if there really is one, you wont mind the abandon.
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On June 26 2013 21:13 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 21:05 hooahah wrote:
I definitely agree that some spells arbitrarily going through BKB is bullshit. What makes RP go through BKB but not Ravage? it is a mystery
at the very least, specify in the spells' description "goes through magic immunity" Generally all spells that you can't skill at level 1, read ultimates, can at least partially pierce BKB ( I don't really know how stuff like Lich ult stunning but not doing damage works). Ravage however used to be invisible proxy units casting impale(?) in wc3, thus not an ultimate per se which makes BKB effective against it.
This. Every ultimate in the game goes through bkb, but NOT the damage (so if you have a damage only ultimate, nothing happens). Ravage is an exception as mentioned above, because of wc3 engine, but also Tidehunter would be absolutely stupidly sickening op if it did.
other exceptions are ultis which does physical damage and not magic, such as Juggernaut. He will deal full damage through bkb.
edit: Oh, and yes, bkb absolutely adds tons and tons of depth in the game. I would go as far as to say the game would be bland without it, as everything would have to be redesigned to "fun sized" like in LoL.
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On June 26 2013 20:39 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 20:06 -Celestial- wrote:
^ Looks like someone got killed by a BKBd Carry. >_>
Incze is right. There's nothing inherently wrong with BKB. Removing it would make heroes like Lion and Shadow Shaman overpowered as hell. Especially if they built Euls and sheepstick as well.
Edit: Actually Quotidian...did you start off on DOTA-like games by playing LoL? Knew I'd seen your name before so I glanced at your post history and remembered you were the one decrying the losing gold on death mechanic and the "poor design" of DOTA for new players.
If you haven't played LoL in all seriousness I'd suggest giving it a try. Been playing a little myself and it might well be more to your taste. Some of your anti-DOTA complaints aren't issues there.
More like ^ played Jakiro and at a certain point in the game none of his spells did anything to anyone anymore >_> people saying that removing BKB would make certain heroes overpowered aren't using their head. It would mean 1) certain things would have to be rebalanced - you wouldn't put stuns on high damage heroes for instance, so there would be bigger trade-offs by picking disablers and 2) positioning would matter more, so the better coordinated team would win engagements. BKB is a symptom of a game designer who basically just gave up trying to balance heroes and instead said "fuck it, I'm adding this thing negates heroes completely, because designing a game properly seems to be too hard for me." And then on top of that, there's the weird, inconsistent rules concerning what BKB does and does not block, which you have to dig trough a wiki page to figure out. How anybody can defend the item - at least in its current form - is weird as fuck. For all intents and purposes I started off on Dota and LOL at the same time. LOL is an even worse game, but for different reasons. So, no.. LOL is not an alternative.
Dota was designed with BKB in mind. Saying that the designers gave up on balancing heroes with the addition of BKB is not the brightest thing I've heard. Especially since some ultis go through BKB, giving the item even more depth.
And if you're saying a carry with BKB negates your Jakiro totally, then you're doing something wrong.
If you're mad because some bloke with BKB killed you repeatedly, remeber that your carry can get BKB too.
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Quotidian is not the brightest light bulb, the sharpest knife, so to say :3
Not sure why he is bitching about Dota specific mechanics that badly when there is a game called League of Lesbians that does not have any of those things he deem makes the game antifun and toxic.
User was warned for this post
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On June 26 2013 19:14 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 19:11 SXGCoil wrote:On June 26 2013 18:38 Quotidian wrote:
BKB is such a dumb fucking item, and it really should not be in a game like this. The fact that you can buy an item that completely negates a significant portion of the hero pool is just awful game design. And then there's the fact that the conditions of the item itself is confusing too. And Blitz Dota agrees with me, so there If it didn't exist, every game would be both teams with 5 stuns because there's no drawbacks. so?
That would be even worse than BKB imo.So many spells go through BKB anyway
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slark and huskar in pub games right now...
i just instaleave the game if anyone picks them right now
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I dunno why but this BKB discussion reminds me of this:
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Be me.
Playing Centaur.
A mates has OD.
Early game goes accordingly (stuns, fine kills, nice ganks).
Then OD let his lane and come with us.
Proceed to ban EVERY SINGLE FOCUSED target, transforming free kills (sometimes 2 or 3) and bad engagement from other team into astronomic fail.
On picks (AR mode) and game, we should win in 35-40 min.
Lose mid rax at 40.
Games goes on for 40 min more.
Me obligated to NOT STUN TARGET in order to avoid wasting cd on a banned target.
Miraculously pull out a mega creep win.
Stopped dota for the day else I'll die from an rage attack.
PS : OD was russian and could not understand english.
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It also applies vice versa in that BKB forces supports to be more positionally aware so that they can't be blown up in the first 2 seconds of a fight by the BKB'd carry. take out BKB and you have way more room for error positionally as a support
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EPT
