EPTGame Design: Mind vs Execution - Page 8
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Random string of buzzwords, or so the flagrant misuse of the word "feedback" suggests; I refer you to a dictionary. I haven't a clue if it's the proper usage of the word feedback or not, but what he means is that without MBS/Automining, the more bases you take, the harder it gets to keep them all running smoothly. With MBS you can go 0p and have your 4 expansions all produce probes. Anyway, I don't really know how big of an impact it actually has, seeing as how you generally take expansions one at a time (or maybe two at once after the first one), and workers are mostly maynarded there. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5411 Posts
And it's 0p times as many Nexi you have.  And I wouldn't call anyone ignorant if it weren't for the sheer ignorance (duh) in his post. Do I really have to repeat my points in every single thread and explain the terminology just because one person couldn't be bothered to read them? In this case he knew what they meant, posted some baseless accusations, said he disagreed but didn't even mention what he disagreed with, and then continued to be annoying. T___T I guess I'll just ignore his future posts. ;] | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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the.dude
United States16 Posts
On December 04 2008 01:43 naventus wrote: Idiots who come in here trumpeting how SC2 is different from SC BLAH BLAH BLAH should gtfo. People did the same for WC3, saying that it's a different game, and because it's different, we have no way of analyzing it as we did for SC. Guess what? WC3 was an awful competitive game that was majorly reworked in TFT. And we know for a fact now that TFT is a shallower and less interesting game (for all the reasons that people explained 4 years ago) than SC. That is why we can talk about what's wrong with SC2. Because there are people who understand how the _fundamental_ mechanics of RTS work. Just because you have no fucking clue doesn't mean there aren't people who do. i think the sc competitive scene didn't really take off until after the expansion was released. There is probably a great chance that sc2 will be blah on the competitive scene at the initial release, usually games mature better as the expansions come out. WC3 is still a very good game, and frankly outside s.korea it is more popular then sc:bw. | ||
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onepost
Canada297 Posts
=>Just to make sure: maynarding is worker split, right? I've never seen that word before. =>About WC3: It's so different a game from SC, even though it too is an RTS, that I wouldn't make deep comparisons between them. Whatever SC2 ends up looking like, it won't be WC3, if only because of what we have seen until now, and because these games are destined to different audiences. | ||
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the.dude
United States16 Posts
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L
Canada4732 Posts
Comparing the easier controls of a fighting game to MBS/Automine Pardon? | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 04 2008 06:04 L wrote: Pardon? I don't think he means fighting games have easier controls, but the original article talks about simplifying the controls of fighting games (something Sirlin apparently did when working on SF2 Turbo HD Remix), which was compared to the addition of things like MBS and automining to Sc2. | ||
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NiGoL
1868 Posts
On December 02 2008 00:07 Zoler wrote: Dont whine before you played the game!!!!! SC2 is totally awesome. It will be the best game ever. I promise. The graphics are awesome, not bad. MBS is okay, btw I was the biggest anti MBS guy ever before I played it. The only problems so far is a few AI bugs but it will be fixed. Blizzard I LOVE YOU!!! You are the only company that REALLY listen to your gamers!!!! THANK YOU haha, true or not? =D | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
i only believe in ppl that talk things similar to my sign | ||
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oki
United States35 Posts
We need to enter into these discussions with humility. We all know how many years it took SC1 to reach an acceptable state. Before it came out people had their opinions based on their experiences with WC2. But really, everyone was to some degree "ignorant" about SC1 for many years after it's release. A good first step to take before contributing to these discussions is to acknowledge we are all somewhat ignorant about SC2 and probably will remain so until 2010 or 2011. | ||
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Love.Zelduck
United States170 Posts
On December 04 2008 08:05 oki wrote: the.dude I honestly just tried to make a b.net account on west with this name. lol too bad someone took it. We need to enter into these discussions with humility. QFT Humility = one of the best qualities for a person to have, one of the hardest ones to obtain, and one of the most overlooked/neglected ones in modern society. In short, humility = win. | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On December 03 2008 18:58 maybenexttime wrote: Yeah, I don't think that what Blii307 mentioned can compare to 100k peopel showing live to watch PL finals, and such. ;p On December 04 2008 01:11 .risingdragoon wrote: lol get da fuk outta here. I repeat, GTFO  A gathering of a few hundred dedicated gamers is not the same as a gathering of casual spectators. That's like comparing a lan to a baseball game. You don't seem to know the difference b/w broad and niche appeal, where people of all ages (family with babies in hand, etc.) show up to watch sc and a few sf-playing adolescents showing up for irregular matches. Shiiit, you'd see the same couple of people in the seats if you hold that kind of stuff more than once. Sure StarCraft has an order of magnitude more fans in Korea. Now explain why that makes it a better game, or a more appealing game. There are other factors that affect the # of people who watch a sport / e-sport. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
Which brings me to my point: if most of the appeal of starcraft was in the mind games and dynamic strategy adaptation, then people like us on TL.net would not be enjoying the game. The appeal of Starcraft is more on the intense, walking on eggshells gameplay where the game outcome can shift in a mere 3 seconds (the time it takes for a storm drop to kill a pile of workers) and executing crazy strategies. The game of Starcraft would (will) change dramatically with things like MBS and automine, just because taking difficult mechanics out removes 90% of what you are doing in every game of Starcraft. Whether that's for the better or for the worse, well, we'll just have to see. | ||
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BatTheMan
Canada759 Posts
On December 01 2008 15:06 Love.Zelduck wrote: Most of us here on TL.net (I think) are worried (at least somewhat) that Starcraft II will be a game that is overly automated/plays itself/is too noob friendly/takes less skill than BW/etc. However, this fear is usually rooted in the belief that one of the chief appeals of Starcraft is in the skill of execution that can be achieved after years of training and massgaming. I'd like to propose that even with MBS and automine in the game, what makes Starcraft truly amazing both to play and to watch isn't how hard it is to macro off of 4 bases, but how hard it is to out-think, out-maneuver, out-tech, out-expand, and golden-mouse-July-style out-mindgame your opponent. The following is David Sirlin's rationale for why he made the execution of moves in Street Fighter easier. Sirlin is one of the top US ST (Super Street Fighter II Turbo) players and the lead designer of Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix. I think I'm with the majority here (maybe) when I say I'd prefer that they leave automine and the gas mechanic out, but even with these in, I believe that Starcraft 2 will be inclusive to Starcraft vets, WC3 players, and new players alike. The highest levels of play honestly won't be damaged if some stuff is automated (but let's not get carried away) because after all, what truly separates the gold medalist from the silver medalist is his drive, his passion, his game knowledge, his ingenuity, his unpredictability, his ability to read and fake out his opponent, and his champion-like qualities. Our most beloved Starcraft heroes are not revered for training >9000 hours a week to be able to multitask at 400+ apm. They are revered for their style, their ingenuity, and their ability to produce amazing Starcraft. All in all, don't worry too much. Starcraft 2 will be great, we'll all play it, and it'll be fun. Thanks for reading. not worried at all | ||
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onepost
Canada297 Posts
On December 05 2008 10:14 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: I Just read the OP, so I apologize if this is redundant. Your theory is completely wrong. 99.99% of starcraft players have yet to master basic build orders and micro/macro execution. Amateur games are almost entirely decided by who has better micro/macro/build order. I know we'd like to think we are all master strategists when we play, but in reality we are just mimicking pros or we would lose. Even NonY admits that his game is entirely based off of replicating progamer builds and reactions. Of course, at the amateur level we can try to play mind games on our opponents and come up with our own strategies, but statistically if you focus on these elements you'll lose. This is what angers players who come from other RTS's: haven't you heard people say "I don't like starcraft because it's all about building a shitload of units and throwing them at your opponent." Only once you have mastered the mechanics of starcraft can you begin to effectively pay attention to what your opponent is thinking about. Which brings me to my point: if most of the appeal of starcraft was in the mind games and dynamic strategy adaptation, then people like us on TL.net would not be enjoying the game. The appeal of Starcraft is more on the intense, walking on eggshells gameplay where the game outcome can shift in a mere 3 seconds (the time it takes for a storm drop to kill a pile of workers) and executing crazy strategies. The game of Starcraft would (will) change dramatically with things like MBS and automine, just because taking difficult mechanics out removes 90% of what you are doing in every game of Starcraft. Whether that's for the better or for the worse, well, we'll just have to see. The facts you bring are debatable, but that's not what I truly disagree about. Starcraft is also a con game, more than most realize or acknowledge. For example: =>We show and hide buildings at our convenience. Sometimes we hide buildings at very remote places to make sure the opponent does not see them. Other times we let the opponent scout, then cancel buildings and upgrades for similar purposes. =>Cheese depends as much on psychology as on mechanical skills. In fact, when to cheese in a bo3/5 tournament round, and how, is itself decided by psychology. =>Tech switching also is a mean to con your opponent, when used to inflict surprising counterattacks. One classic is to make a few dark templars just to make the opponent freak out, then instead you just macro up. Or a spire but no mutalisks. =>Retreat to better flank and surround is an age-old trap. =>Ruse can take many forms. One of these is to fly around with an empty shuttle to drive mutalisks away from your base and gain time. Another is to make a sneak expo and pretend that you're in trouble at your main, making your opponent overconfident. Burrowing hydralisks near a helpless overlord is an effective corsair trap. And so on. I only stop here because I'm tired and it's bedtime. [Zzz] There's already a lot of head games in SC, and there shall be even more in SC2. Just think of hallucinations, for example, that are underused in SC but shall last longer in SC2. We'll also have to worry more about nuke rushes, and not only on Battle.net attacks. I'm expecting a lot in that area. | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
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Koof
United States66 Posts
On December 05 2008 13:53 A3iL3r0n wrote: I dunno, I guess I always thought that tough button combinations in fighting games were supposed to mimic the requirement of practice as in real life martial arts. You couldn't just do them normally, but with practice, that's why they are the special moves. Am I wrong? I think that you should also feel physical pain after you get hit, just so we can mimic real life martial arts. What the hell kind of argument is this? | ||
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