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Sweden33723 Posts
On June 04 2008 12:15 prOxi.swAMi wrote:
Just want to say it sucks that the transport units have slow load/unload animations now. Completely removing load/unload dropship micro. Intensity just dropped a point. Which is part of the 'excitement' of starcraft.
The phase prism doesn't have that, right? I'm sort of assuming that by the end of the development they'll have removed the ridiculous landing animation of the dropship so we can get micro back..
On June 04 2008 14:48 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2008 10:47 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Blablabla marauder blabalbal ghosts.. I don't know what they cost, I don't know where they are in the tech tree, I don't know how they do vs unit X. But I do know they don't let marines stim freely. And that is boring. I agree that you do lose something fun. Early game heal for stim spam was fun indeed and you'll lose it. But it's a trade-off, early reapers/marauders/ghost can potentially be a lot of fun TOO. You lose something fun but you gain something fun. And you don't completely lose the stim fun because it's still there for late game. But you couldn't have it all (old early medics + new troops), because that would be way too much and hard to balance. So Blizzard opted to removereplace early game medics so they could ADD MORE fun units to the game. Because on sc2 you still have fun early game (but with different units, new troops instead of medics) while in late game you still have the same fun as before PLUS the new early game fun which totals in more fun overall  But you're probably asking. Are marauder/ghosts/reapers just as fun as early game medics+stim? Well I don't know But I do see a potential on them and I would love to give them a try and see what Flash can do with reaper and probes ^^
Don't you think they could balance it in some other way, say, giving the medic a slower heal rate, or making heal more expensive.. Then if they really want the medivac they could make it an upgrade (ie dropship upgrades to medivac and can now heal as long as there's a medic inside).
I know at least some of this is personal bias, as I like the fast m&m micro and don't really like the kind of micro that seems to come from having marines/marauders/ghosts (it seems less "CHARGE THE SUNKENS" and more I dunno, let's sit back and wait for shit to come then we destroy them") but =.=
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I pretty much agree that keeping SC2 exciting is very important. They need to have units that become 10 times their worth under skilled hands. A boxer marine is 10 times more deadly than a stenole marine, even if I've seen the moves and know somewhat in my head what I want to do. The same goes for the reaver. It has some very specific weaknesses and powers. Slow movement speed, low firing rate, a slow projectile that must run along the ground, can miss and be obstructed. Like the marine's natural partner is the medic, the reaver's natural partner is the shuttle. Having units like this that open up doors for fun tactics and possibilies is good. The collosus is a bland unit that will mostly attack move along with the protoss army. I think all it does is give protoss an AOE unit that they don't have to fuss too much with. At noob level this may make a matchup like PvZ a little more bearable. But as a spectator and player, it doesn't add FUN.
I think a reasoning behind a lot of Blizzard's decisions is to make the game easier to balance. Units that behave reliably with little randomness and finite micro options make for a game that is much easier to balance.
I would say that it is more important to make sure SC2 is FUN than balanced. A FUN game can be made balanced. But if it is not FUN, you can't patch it into being FUN.
Because basemanagement will be a lot easier in SC2, please don't take potential for fun micro out of the game also. I want to do more than just focus firing and making concave formations and casting dumb spells.
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many of you are missing the point. this isn't about protoss losing their worker harassment abilities. this is about sc2 losing the dynamic units that made all the races unique and fun and replacing them with things you control by adding them into your huge group selection with everything else then forgetting theyre even there.
stenole is on the money with the point frozenarbiter was trying to make
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On June 04 2008 20:57 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I know at least some of this is personal bias, as I like the fast m&m micro and don't really like the kind of micro that seems to come from having marines/marauders/ghosts (it seems less "CHARGE THE SUNKENS" and more I dunno, let's sit back and wait for shit to come then we destroy them") but =.=
I feel the exact opposite way about it, as a terran player these changes are giving me a lot more freedom and mobility to charge those sunkens, harass workers, etc instead of adfasfdasgf mutalisks or lurker contain.
The strategies I was naming were potentially great strategies that can all take place without medics.
On June 04 2008 23:15 SoMuchBetter wrote:
many of you are missing the point. this isn't about protoss losing their worker harassment abilities. this is about sc2 losing the dynamic units that made all the races unique and fun and replacing them with things you control by adding them into your huge group selection with everything else then forgetting theyre even there.
stenole is on the money with the point frozenarbiter was trying to make
I can't speak for the Protoss changes, but medics are not really dynamic units. All they do is heal and act as a wall. If anything they look more like something you add to your huge group selection and then forget about.
And I agree about the thor and the battlecruiser.. get rid of them.
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Sweden33723 Posts
The strategies I was naming were potentially great strategies that can all take place without medics.
Precisely! They can take place regardless of wether or not the medic is in the game, hence mentioning them when debating wether the medic should be in the game is sort of pointless?
If the ghost becomes a more viable unit, it could actually potentially lead to the medic becoming more interesting as well. Flare would actually have quite a lot of use now, especially if overlords need to be invidiually upgraded before they can spot cloaked units.
Further, it could easily be changed so it can be used on buildings too (might be too imbalanced, but could provide a 10 second blind or something). Like, I would rather see the medic adapted to work with the new units while still keeping terran early game marine micro.
Assuming the new terran cloakable units (ghost, banshee) are actually more useful than the wraith/ghost of old that is.
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Overlords don't have detection, overseers do.
Lifted off buildings no longer have that huge vision.
Medics & high HP ghosts would be really strong. Ghosts can snipe HTs before the two armies get into range of each other.
Reaver is a walking robot factory. You can give the reaver any new ability one can come up with. Cloaked anti air mines. Scarabs with Plague, EMP or irradiate effect. Single target anyti armour. The old splash. Detection scarabs. Deflection shield scarabs. Repair bots. Everything you can come up with you can add to the reaver and not make it too silly.
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i don't mind colossus , i think the walk across cliffs could add alot to strategy
certainly it adds more than the terran super mech
but yeah , i would like to see reavers back in and possibly a nerf to colossus so it's not a kill all superunit
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Here's my question then
scvs now have auto repair which = a heal for mech units.
if anything ur encouraging only mech play
Ghosts shouldn't be massable. They're not supposed to be infantry like in Diplo, they're supposed to be specialists, with cloaking for assassinations and the like.
And infantry will suck against mutalisks without the medic. Without stim, the mutas will out run you and do tons of damage. With stim, the zerg can run the mutas away till stim wears off. Oh sure, you can snipe the friggen mutalisks, but that costs a ton of gas, and its a "hard" counter, which is not what SC is about really. Then when the marines have stimmed 3 times or so, the mutaling comes in to rape the shit out of everything. GG.
Combining a medic and dropship isn't versatility. Having a dropship that can have stuff shoot out of it IS versatility.
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Ghosts will own mutas. With ot without medics.
No more vultures and dropships means you use marines as your mineral sink. You will always get tons of marines. It's the only mineral only unit. Of course unless every map has tons more gas to compensate.
If you are fighting P with marines you will always need to have ghosts. Because then you can snipe the HTs and insta kill them. No way for P to prevent this except not getting close or trying to snipe the ghosts themselves before they get close.
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To find out whether this game has unit quirks like Starcraft and is as exciting to play means you have to wait for ALL the units to be released and play it moderately. Trying to shoehorn in old units that don't fit in the game design for the sake of nostalgia is a bad idea. I would rather see M&M in BroodWar where it actually fits the game ,than see a poor copy of it in SC2. Just look at the Mutalisks in SC2;if it plays differently than the original perhaps it should be different to begin with.
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On June 04 2008 23:57 BlackStar wrote:
Ghosts will own mutas. With or without medics.
No more vultures and dropships means you use marines as your mineral sink. You will always get tons of marines. It's the only mineral only unit. Of course unless every map has tons more gas to compensate.
If you are fighting P with marines you will always need to have ghosts. Because then you can snipe the HTs and insta kill them. No way for P to prevent this except not getting close or trying to snipe the ghosts themselves before they get close.
Marines as a mineral sink... hmm...
Let's look at the Protoss units and see which ones "counter"marines
zealot, high templar, dark templar, colossus
that basically means you'll be going biomech every single game. which is really stupid. Zerg vs. Protoss had its own style as opposed to ZvT and PvT, where you would get hydras vs. P and not T, and you could go any sort of build in PvT, and in ZvT you use lurkers and mutas, etc. And t had bio and mech.
With marines ALWAYS as a mineral sink, you will always end up using biomech builds, like it or not, which to be honest is soooo boring if its the same thing all the time. I liked having vultures and whatnot.
Which brings up my next point: all the other terran units use gas. Ghosts use tons of gas, not to mention research. Whereas zerglings and zealots become far better late game (speed/crack-charge), marines relatively aren't made better by the addition of some lousy hit points. They need medics to do well. No medics = raped by psistorm, colossus, zealots-hell, did you see those 8 zeals just rape those 18 marines with charge? and Zeals/lings dont use gas. If you have 12 marines and you see 6 zeals, what do you do? stim? Then they run away till stim wears off. Not stim? you know what happens.
I hate having to HAVE to get units. You don't HAVE to get dragoons or zeals.. You don't HAVE to get firebats or gols or even tanks. You don't HAVE to mass SVs to win TvZ. Having to HAVE to get marines and ghosts all the time feels boring.
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On June 05 2008 00:43 moebius_string wrote:
To find out whether this game has unit quirks like Starcraft and is as exciting to play means you have to wait for ALL the units to be released and play it moderately. Trying to shoehorn in old units that don't fit in the game design for the sake of nostalgia is a bad idea. I would rather see M&M in BroodWar where it actually fits the game ,than see a poor copy of it in SC2. Just look at the Mutalisks in SC2;if it plays differently than the original perhaps it should be different to begin with.
did you actually read the thread
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On June 05 2008 02:04 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2008 23:57 BlackStar wrote:
Ghosts will own mutas. With or without medics.
No more vultures and dropships means you use marines as your mineral sink. You will always get tons of marines. It's the only mineral only unit. Of course unless every map has tons more gas to compensate.
If you are fighting P with marines you will always need to have ghosts. Because then you can snipe the HTs and insta kill them. No way for P to prevent this except not getting close or trying to snipe the ghosts themselves before they get close. Marines as a mineral sink... hmm... Let's look at the Protoss units and see which ones "counter"marines zealot, high templar, dark templar, colossus that basically means you'll be going biomech every single game. which is really stupid. Zerg vs. Protoss had its own style as opposed to ZvT and PvT, where you would get hydras vs. P and not T, and you could go any sort of build in PvT, and in ZvT you use lurkers and mutas, etc. And t had bio and mech. With marines ALWAYS as a mineral sink, you will always end up using biomech builds, like it or not, which to be honest is soooo boring if its the same thing all the time. I liked having vultures and whatnot. Which brings up my next point: all the other terran units use gas. Ghosts use tons of gas, not to mention research. Whereas zerglings and zealots become far better late game (speed/crack-charge), marines relatively aren't made better by the addition of some lousy hit points. They need medics to do well. No medics = raped by psistorm, colossus, zealots-hell, did you see those 8 zeals just rape those 18 marines with charge? and Zeals/lings dont use gas. If you have 12 marines and you see 6 zeals, what do you do? stim? Then they run away till stim wears off. Not stim? you know what happens. I hate having to HAVE to get units. You don't HAVE to get dragoons or zeals.. You don't HAVE to get firebats or gols or even tanks. You don't HAVE to mass SVs to win TvZ. Having to HAVE to get marines and ghosts all the time feels boring.
1) all videos of charging zealots or any video does not represent gameplay balance.
2) in SC1 in TvT you HAVE to get tanks. in SC1 in TvP you HAVE to get tanks. In TvZ most builds include tanks. I can't think of a protoss situation where you're not going to want at least some zealots. every matchup includes zerglings.
3) marines have the effect of critical mass and attack upgrades being much more useful to them than other units.
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On June 05 2008 02:05 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2008 00:43 moebius_string wrote:
To find out whether this game has unit quirks like Starcraft and is as exciting to play means you have to wait for ALL the units to be released and play it moderately. Trying to shoehorn in old units that don't fit in the game design for the sake of nostalgia is a bad idea. I would rather see M&M in BroodWar where it actually fits the game ,than see a poor copy of it in SC2. Just look at the Mutalisks in SC2;if it plays differently than the original perhaps it should be different to begin with. did you actually read the thread
I read the thread.
This is what made Broodwar exciting. I agree.
Reaver -> Colossus
Vulture -> Jackal
Medic -> Medivac
This what could make Starcraft 2 exciting if you wait.
Reapers,Ghosts
Nydus worm,Banelings
Stalker,Phase prism
The units are still being toyed with by Blizz and may just surprise you how they react in the next revision. No one has had enough time to try and exploit AL behavior on pathing on any of these new units. We have had 10 years on the old ones so of course they fair better in comparison.
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On June 04 2008 03:54 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2008 03:44 InRaged wrote:On June 04 2008 02:54 FrozenArbiter wrote:
And finally, the colossus fires a 100% hit attack. There's not much excitement in knowing for sure that those 10 probes are gonna die.. I'm actually right now drawing fan-art picture for suggestion that I'll put in the corresponding thread. The point would be - replacing colossus row-of-lazerz with several bombs, which do essentially same (linear splash damage) but firstly, would imho feel more "Protossish" than lasers and secondly, since they're bombs, there would be delay between attack and actual damage. How do you think? Do it! Plasma bombs! (but should be 1 super bomb at a time imo, not several bombies, so it's not too similar to banshee + keeps excitement of 1-hit-blows-lots-of-shit-up) Maybe even make it a flying scarab that would try to run to the target after it lands, and would be just as dumb as the original one
This is awesome, get some blizz attention on this idea!
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If Blizz's claims to how powerful its map editing tools are is true, then FA you've got to team up with some guys with time on their hands and BRING BACK THE REAVER, MEDIC, ETC.
We'll call it the "real SC2" and everyone go patch it =p
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On June 05 2008 02:04 Caller wrote:
With marines ALWAYS as a mineral sink, you will always end up using biomech builds, like it or not, which to be honest is soooo boring if its the same thing all the time. I liked having vultures and whatnot.
Honestly, I don't see why this is more boring than going factory builds all the time.
But strategy divergence will be in where you spend your gas on. That's clear to me with only gasless unit.
And, protoss and zerg always get their basic unit. Well, almost always. It's just that T didn't have to because they had both vultures and dropships.
Also, cracklings are gone.
Also, FA's argument. Didn't we have this one article saying randomness makes bad competitive games? Now we have people saying there needs to be randomness otherwise it's not exiting?
BleuNuit, I opened a topic about that. Blizz has to add new stuff, even if it makes the game worse. If they can't come up with even better units than reavers and vultures, they will have to remove those anyway and do with something inferior.
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On June 05 2008 02:17 anotak wrote:
1) all videos of charging zealots or any video does not represent gameplay balance.
2) in SC1 in TvT you HAVE to get tanks. in SC1 in TvP you HAVE to get tanks. In TvZ most builds include tanks. I can't think of a protoss situation where you're not going to want at least some zealots. every matchup includes zerglings.
3) marines have the effect of critical mass and attack upgrades being much more useful to them than other units.
1) assuming they still do 16 damage, 3 hits = dead marine
2) well, seeing as siege tanks are still in the game, I don't want to HAVE to get more than one unit. Otherwise my army composition every game will be marines and tanks.
Protoss when you don't want zeals: 2fact vult, wraiths, throughout the early game as non speed zeals arent very good. Besides, you don't HAVE to get more than one kind of unit.
And zerglings are zerglings. But zerg aren't forced to get any kind of unit besides them.
Making terrans the only ones that have to get tanks + marines + ghosts for 3 kinds of units is kinda boring.
3) so do tanks and hydras and stalkers and every ranged unit ever except for maybe jackals. Vultures, too.
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On June 05 2008 02:21 moebius_string wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2008 02:05 Caller wrote:On June 05 2008 00:43 moebius_string wrote:
To find out whether this game has unit quirks like Starcraft and is as exciting to play means you have to wait for ALL the units to be released and play it moderately. Trying to shoehorn in old units that don't fit in the game design for the sake of nostalgia is a bad idea. I would rather see M&M in BroodWar where it actually fits the game ,than see a poor copy of it in SC2. Just look at the Mutalisks in SC2;if it plays differently than the original perhaps it should be different to begin with. did you actually read the thread I read the thread. Read my post and you see my reaction to it.
if you read the thread you'd notice how we're not trying to shoehorn in old units for the sake of nostalgia. It's just that we don't like these new units b/c they're so BORING. I don't understand how you can make a flying medic exciting. Unless it was a medic with a jetpack.
The only reason the medivac is in the game, realistically, is to support the reaper. The reaper is like the pet terran unit, its getting all this stuff just to allow it to stay in the game. I mean i like it, but no point making units solely b/c of so and so.
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Sweden33723 Posts
Honestly, I don't see why this is more boring than going factory builds all the time.
Because in SC you go factory units (most of the time) in 2 of the matchups while you go bio units (most of the time) in 1 of the matchups =P
Having to go bio in all 3 matchups would suck to me.
Also, cracklings are gone.
Wow I hadn't even thought about this, that's.. weird, dunno what to think.
Also, FA's argument. Didn't we have this one article saying randomness makes bad competitive games? Now we have people saying there needs to be randomness otherwise it's not exiting?
I don't view the scarabs randomness as the same kind of randomness that an attack which does, say, between 20 and 90 damage. The latter is arbitrary and doesn't do much good while the first can be influenced (reaver targetting, unit dodging) by both players.
I think the cliff % to miss did create interesting/tense moments, and I'm not sure I think it's a bad feature.. I mean, both players know you're only 70% to hit so you make a calculated gamble. It is more similiar to a 20-90 attack tho.
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EPT
