|
On June 05 2008 07:15 FrozenArbiter wrote:How big is their range? How much mana do they have? Do they have 3x the mana of a medic? Do they have to run back and forth to heal? Etc. I don't see why you'd build air units to accompany the medivac, did you build wraiths to accompany your vessels? Nah, the marines protect them. Show nested quote +In my opinion marine/marauder/medivac/viking is cooler than marine/firebat/medic. A marine/marauder/medic army is exactly the same only it doesn't ruin the early game micro potential.
Good point about air unit part. But I really don't think the medic being gone will ruin early game micro. It will be different for sure, not necessarily worse though. Plus it isn't exactly the same, anti-air units will come into play more often vs infantry due to one more very important air unit healing the infantry.
EDIT: AND people might make cool little donut shaped formations, with SCV's on inside healing dropship and marines/marauders on outside! you gotta say, that is pretty cool.
|
Sweden33723 Posts
On June 05 2008 07:22 Unentschieden wrote:
We don´t even know if the Medivac needs Energy at all or if they will grant it additional abilities. I´m shure Blizzard would like your Crystal Ball since back then they couldn´t predict the micro potentional of Reavers and Mutalisks etc...
I can only go on what they've told us about the medivac so far, as little as that may be, but it does not sound fun/it sounds bad.
Crystalball comment I don't get, you don't think we can infer anything about how the units will play, even after all the videos, people playing the game and so on?
If that's not what you meant please elaborate, I don't think I can tell FOR SURE that what I say is the truth but based on the info we have at this point, that's what it looks like to me.
EDIT: AND people might make cool little donut shaped formations, with SCV's on inside healing dropship and marines/marauders on outside! you gotta say, that is pretty cool.
.. Maybe in single player video sequences >.< And again, that kind of wall thing is just as possible with the medic.. Meh.
|
On June 05 2008 07:32 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2008 07:22 Unentschieden wrote:
We don´t even know if the Medivac needs Energy at all or if they will grant it additional abilities. I´m shure Blizzard would like your Crystal Ball since back then they couldn´t predict the micro potentional of Reavers and Mutalisks etc... I can only go on what they've told us about the medivac so far, as little as that may be, but it does not sound fun/it sounds bad. Crystalball comment I don't get, you don't think we can infer anything about how the units will play, even after all the videos, people playing the game and so on? If that's not what you meant please elaborate, I don't think I can tell FOR SURE that what I say is the truth but based on the info we have at this point, that's what it looks like to me. Show nested quote +EDIT: AND people might make cool little donut shaped formations, with SCV's on inside healing dropship and marines/marauders on outside! you gotta say, that is pretty cool.
.. Maybe in single player video sequences >.< And again, that kind of wall thing is just as possible with the medic.. Meh.
It is not that hard to put troops in a formation, a circle formation is actually the easiest as it won't break at all when units move.
Oh AND, just think all units are dead except the SCV's, then the SCV's kill the weakened enemy units, how funny would it be too see that in a pro game?
|
On June 05 2008 07:45 UmmTheHobo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2008 07:32 FrozenArbiter wrote:On June 05 2008 07:22 Unentschieden wrote:
We don´t even know if the Medivac needs Energy at all or if they will grant it additional abilities. I´m shure Blizzard would like your Crystal Ball since back then they couldn´t predict the micro potentional of Reavers and Mutalisks etc... I can only go on what they've told us about the medivac so far, as little as that may be, but it does not sound fun/it sounds bad. Crystalball comment I don't get, you don't think we can infer anything about how the units will play, even after all the videos, people playing the game and so on? If that's not what you meant please elaborate, I don't think I can tell FOR SURE that what I say is the truth but based on the info we have at this point, that's what it looks like to me. EDIT: AND people might make cool little donut shaped formations, with SCV's on inside healing dropship and marines/marauders on outside! you gotta say, that is pretty cool.
.. Maybe in single player video sequences >.< And again, that kind of wall thing is just as possible with the medic.. Meh. It is not that hard to put troops in a formation, a circle formation is actually the easiest as it won't break at all when units move. Oh AND, just think all units are dead except the SCV's, then the SCV's kill the weakened enemy units, how funny would it be too see that in a pro game?
umm you can see this in games with or without medics.
Besides those kinds of formations are asking for a colossus rape or storm or swarm guardians or disease or anything. With the medic that wouldn't have happened.
By the way, how are terrans supposed to deal with infested marines without medics? not only can you not produce units, but you have no medics so your 50 mins marines will get raped and the free infested marines will just rape the fck out of everything. GG.
|
I feel like a lot of SC2 is removing the amazing, exciting things you could do in SC1 and replacing them with lamer alternatives.
For example, watching insane dragoon dancing was always awesome. Seeing them sniping mines, killing tanks behind the wall, dismantling a FD push...that kind of stuff was unbelievable. SC2's alternative is to remove the dragoon and replace it with a unit whose dancing really isn't dancing - the stalker and its blink ability. I think it's an interesting concept, but it lacks the craziness of gosu dragoon dancing.
I feel like reaver/shuttle micro was replaced by the collosus, which can traverse terrain (like a shuttle) and has an AoE attack (like the reaver). Except it's in one compact unit that lacks the excitment of the original.
The speed zealot was always one of my favorites - using your legs to set up surrounds around hydralisks or chasing down stray tanks. SC2's new alternative is the new charge ability, which in my opinion really takes some of the frenzy of speedlot micro.
|
Sweden33723 Posts
For example, watching insane dragoon dancing was always awesome. Seeing them sniping mines, killing tanks behind the wall, dismantling a FD push...that kind of stuff was unbelievable. SC2's alternative is to remove the dragoon and replace it with a unit whose dancing really isn't dancing - the stalker and its blink ability. I think it's an interesting concept, but it lacks the craziness of gosu dragoon dancing.
I disagree with this, I think you'll see some REALLY crazy usage of blink to dodge attacks (and if scarabs in the game I think stalker vs reaver would be AWESOME), it's basically like shuttle micro in that regard but you can do it with all your basic units, it will lead to some really sick micro.
|
On June 05 2008 08:29 Centric wrote:
I feel like a lot of SC2 is removing the amazing, exciting things you could do in SC1 and replacing them with lamer alternatives.
For example, watching insane dragoon dancing was always awesome. Seeing them sniping mines, killing tanks behind the wall, dismantling a FD push...that kind of stuff was unbelievable. SC2's alternative is to remove the dragoon and replace it with a unit whose dancing really isn't dancing - the stalker and its blink ability. I think it's an interesting concept, but it lacks the craziness of gosu dragoon dancing.
I feel like reaver/shuttle micro was replaced by the collosus, which can traverse terrain (like a shuttle) and has an AoE attack (like the reaver). Except it's in one compact unit that lacks the excitment of the original.
The speed zealot was always one of my favorites - using your legs to set up surrounds around hydralisks or chasing down stray tanks. SC2's new alternative is the new charge ability, which in my opinion really takes some of the frenzy of speedlot micro.
Collosus can be stored in phase prism. The phase prism saves the Collosuses (sp?) energy signature so it can carry such a big unit. So you still have shuttle micro. I don't see what the problem with the teleportation is. There will still be dancing, just now there will also be a teleport every 5 seconds. I do agree with you on the speedlot thing though.
|
I don't like the long cooldown on blink. It doesn't feel like Starcraft, but more like Warcraft's hero spell. Blink, then long wait, blink. In Starcraft, special abilities were done in rapid successions. I'd rather they just give the dragoon a mana bar and short cooldown just like every other spell. Marines can stim all they want in a short time frame. Defilers can consume all they want as well. It's fast. Still, I'm not sure which would be a better implementation. Each has their pros and cons.
|
I agree about Reavers. They're the basic Protoss harass unit and its so interesting to watch pros use it. The Colossus is an interesting replacement. It doesn't have the harass abilities of the Reaver but has some good AOE attacks. Speaking of attack-move units, I think the Colossus can somewhat fall into that category. Yes, you do have strategies using cliffs and stuff, but generally you don't need to be micro intensive like Reaver usage.
I agree about blink also. 15 second cooldown seems way too long to be useful.
Phase prisms? Don't they take time to get all the units warped in? It seems to be better for mass unit transportation OUT of combat than for micro oriented strategies like Reaver/Shuttle combo. As opposed to the previous shuttle/reaver combos with fast drop and loading, phase prisms seem like they are less micro friendly. Correct me if im wrong.
I have no clue where this medic debate is going or what it is saying, but I'm not too up on terran bio builds.
If terran go biomech every time, it seems boring, but I think Blizzard is trying to go away from the heavy seige with Protoss, as some people have already mentioned. Charge for zealots and Immortals are both highly anti-seige tank.
What I'm going to miss is arbiters. And reavers. But nobody's mentioned arbiters yet. Yes, the mothership kind of takes over that role, they're only a little more expensive than arbiters, but I don't really like how blizzard is making so many insanely powerful units. Yes they say every unit has counters, like reapers vs. Immortals, but imo, if you make too many powerful units, its easier to mass them and just win with one unit. I haven't played the game yet, so that's just speculation, but that's generally what I think would happen if units were too powerful. So having motherships with a TON of skills and Zerg queens/infestor (I know the units aren't finalized yet) kind of destroys the balance a little. Too much overkill. I would think more micro oriented units would be better than insanely overpowered units, even though all the races have some insanely powerful units.
I think the new Ultralisk with the burrow ability completely goes against regular Zerg swarm theory. Imo the race distinctions should stay clear. Queen being able to secrete Creep? Protoss with mobile pylons? That makes both more mobile (as in buildings)--something Terran are supposed to be good at.
Sorry for the long post, but basically more micro oriented units, less powerful units, and keeping race distinctions is what I want to see in SC2. Yes, change is good, but some of the more unique aspects of Starcraft should remain.
*Edit*
On a side note, I think Terran are completely uninspired compared to the new Protoss/Zerg units. I think Blizzard has done a good job updating the graphics and all, but the core aspects of SC1 are changing.
|
Sweden33723 Posts
Phase prisms? Don't they take time to get all the units warped in? It seems to be better for mass unit transportation OUT of combat than for micro oriented strategies like Reaver/Shuttle combo. As opposed to the previous shuttle/reaver combos with fast drop and loading, phase prisms seem like they are less micro friendly. Correct me if im wrong.
Phase prisms work as normal shuttles but have a secondary role as moving pylons, that way you can warp in units from your gate(warp)gates into their area when they deploy.
What I'm going to miss is arbiters. And reavers. But nobody's mentioned arbiters yet. Yes, the mothership kind of takes over that role, they're only a little more expensive than arbiters, but I don't really like how blizzard is making so many insanely powerful units. Yes they say every unit has counters, like reapers vs. Immortals, but imo, if you make too many powerful units, its easier to mass them and just win with one unit. I haven't played the game yet, so that's just speculation, but that's generally what I think would happen if units were too powerful. So having motherships with a TON of skills and Zerg queens/infestor (I know the units aren't finalized yet) kind of destroys the balance a little. Too much overkill. I would think more micro oriented units would be better than insanely overpowered units, even though all the races have some insanely powerful units.
The mothership is one of a kind tho, I like the arbiter better (who could have guessed given my name huh?) but it's not a big deal in the sense the medic/reaver/vulture is.
The zerg queen does NOT seem very powerful, it seems like a big worker with some defensive skills and possibly offensive use in ZvZs. I like =]
The infestor is basically a defiler without consume but with move-while-burrowed and the awesome building infest, doubt it will be overpowered 
I think the new Ultralisk with the burrow ability completely goes against regular Zerg swarm theory. Imo the race distinctions should stay clear. Queen being able to secrete Creep? Protoss with mobile pylons? That makes both more mobile (as in buildings)--something Terran are supposed to be good at.
Why? I'm not sure what you mean.
I think protoss being able to warp in units to far away location is extremely protoss, the mobile pylons are not really pylons (dont generate food) but a secondary mode for the new shuttle (phase prism). I don't think protoss have moving cannons anymore either, although zerg might have moving sunkens (not clear on what the latest word on that is).
Queen secreting creep is.. I think it's good because it opens the door for zerg cheese finally, which is good. I think it will create some interesting builds with the queen in the long run, good idea in my book.
Could you elaborate on why you feel this hurts race distinction?
|
Sweden33723 Posts
Someone made a pretty good reply to a post I made on the bnet forums (they have a thread about this thread =])
Nice read and I hope you will read this Talking about MnM I read somewhere that Shield upgrade gives +25HP to Marines. This means they are even 2 times stronger against certain opponents like Sunkens and Lurkers* IMO But even after that they are hurt badly by multiple stimming. What if Stim would steal less HP but be cooldowned? (btw not all Marines have to be stimmed in all situations  ) About Medivac itself, without fact on mind it replaces Medic, doesn't it bring much more flexibility for Terran? Terrans are enforced to make them to heal troops but they can carry anything so after all they gain maybe better combo unit for same/slightly higher price as old Dropship. Keeping Medivacs safe won't be so hard: in TvZ there are Scourges no more, even Hydras are Tier2 so far and their replacement on T1 can't hit air. In both TvT and TvP MnMs are no big use with or without Medics... unless new Nomad's Defensive Matrix is still in and makes into the game (what I hope will happen http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/TF-620_Nomad_ ) *(btw Lurkers are moved to higher Tier according to this http://www.sc2blog.com/2008/03/16/starcraft-2-korean-and-chinese-build-summary/I know it's 3months old)
I think stim with cooldown could *maybe* make marines viable in a similiar way to how they are viable now in early game, not sure tho. Would still have the issue of being less durable, although I'm not sure if they still have the hp upgrade or at what tech it becomes available.
It still leaves two issues tho:
* Marines in early game situations (rushing, sunken breaks), imagine those scenarios in SC with no medics, I feel like it might force terrans into some degree of passivity.
* The medivac is not as fun as the medic  (personal opinion) Especially, with the - supposedly - more viable ghost I'd like to see a more useful version of flare (perhaps even one that works on buildings), that way the medic could actually see some cool usage outside of healing.
|
On June 04 2008 15:28 LonelyMargarita wrote:
If you want medics harder to get, just put them farther up on the tech tree; don't make some unit that's completely unrealistic to ever be used (people will just mech in all matchups).
huh?????? the medic is more useless than the medivac if you only get mech...medivacs can at least drop.On June 04 2008 15:28 LonelyMargarita wrote:
If they want SC2 to be an esport, it's easy to tell the important units to keep from the original. Obviously you need at least the tier-1 staples from BW, so ling, zealot, and marine. Beyond that, just watch any Korean game and note which units are being used when the announcers and crowd all scream at once. They change in each match up, so there's actually quite a few (not all need to come back). I'd say primarily it's defilers (plague), temps (storm in pvz), reavers, arbiters ... Banelings and reapers could certainly be exciting, along with disease and warp-in. Other than that, their replacement units are pretty bland.
people are supposed to get nostalgic about defilers or whatever it is that gets taken out for the sake of the new game. and new stuff is going to be exciting and you can't tell now just how exciting it will be or how loud the screams are going to be.
On June 04 2008 15:29 Ideas wrote:
Now in SC2 you build the reactor core (if that's still the case) and you get Ghosts and Marauders, AND you can build the reaper building to get reapers (I guess this actually makes them more Tier 2 than 1.5).
stop trying to analyze terran and protoss builds by tiers. only zerg have tiers. by the way... the reactor core lets you build marines twice as fast, and that's all you can build from that barracks. something along those lines, and i think they are planning to do something similar with the other terran stuff like factory and starport.
|
Sweden33723 Posts
stop trying to analyze terran and protoss builds by tiers. only zerg have tiers. by the way... the reactor core lets you build marines twice as fast, and that's all you can build from that barracks. something along those lines, and i think they are planning to do something similar with the other terran stuff like factory and starport
Blizzard themselves called the ghost a Tier 1.5 unit I think..
About the reactor cores, I'm not sure how they currently work, I don't think anyone is.. They've gone through quite a few changes I believe..?
|
On June 05 2008 02:04 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2008 23:57 BlackStar wrote:
Ghosts will own mutas. With or without medics.
No more vultures and dropships means you use marines as your mineral sink. You will always get tons of marines. It's the only mineral only unit. Of course unless every map has tons more gas to compensate.
If you are fighting P with marines you will always need to have ghosts. Because then you can snipe the HTs and insta kill them. No way for P to prevent this except not getting close or trying to snipe the ghosts themselves before they get close. Marines as a mineral sink... hmm... Let's look at the Protoss units and see which ones "counter"marines zealot, high templar, dark templar, colossus that basically means you'll be going biomech every single game. which is really stupid. Zerg vs. Protoss had its own style as opposed to ZvT and PvT, where you would get hydras vs. P and not T, and you could go any sort of build in PvT, and in ZvT you use lurkers and mutas, etc. And t had bio and mech. With marines ALWAYS as a mineral sink, you will always end up using biomech builds, like it or not, which to be honest is soooo boring if its the same thing all the time. I liked having vultures and whatnot. Which brings up my next point: all the other terran units use gas. Ghosts use tons of gas, not to mention research. Whereas zerglings and zealots become far better late game (speed/crack-charge), marines relatively aren't made better by the addition of some lousy hit points. They need medics to do well. No medics = raped by psistorm, colossus, zealots-hell, did you see those 8 zeals just rape those 18 marines with charge? and Zeals/lings dont use gas. If you have 12 marines and you see 6 zeals, what do you do? stim? Then they run away till stim wears off. Not stim? you know what happens. I hate having to HAVE to get units. You don't HAVE to get dragoons or zeals.. You don't HAVE to get firebats or gols or even tanks. You don't HAVE to mass SVs to win TvZ. Having to HAVE to get marines and ghosts all the time feels boring.
yeah, maybe terrans in sc2 will feel the pain zerg felt in starcraft. NEED MORE VESPENE GAS!!!
about the reaver...it was an exciting unit, and i get what you are all saying about it, and yeah, the colossus does not do the same thing. but i think the warp ray and the phoenix will both be interesting and kindof quirky just like the reaver was...protoss seems to be getting flying reavers i think in sc2...well, called warp rays and phoenix units anyway.
|
On June 05 2008 11:19 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +stop trying to analyze terran and protoss builds by tiers. only zerg have tiers. by the way... the reactor core lets you build marines twice as fast, and that's all you can build from that barracks. something along those lines, and i think they are planning to do something similar with the other terran stuff like factory and starport Blizzard themselves called the ghost a Tier 1.5 unit I think.. About the reactor cores, I'm not sure how they currently work, I don't think anyone is.. They've gone through quite a few changes I believe..?
Reactor cores allow you to build two units at a time, but only the units that can normally be built from the building (without the tech lab).
|
On June 05 2008 07:58 Caller wrote:
By the way, how are terrans supposed to deal with infested marines without medics? not only can you not produce units, but you have no medics so your 50 mins marines will get raped and the free infested marines will just rape the fck out of everything. GG.
what are you thinking? infestors coming before medivacs? i don't think so.
if the terran can't get medivacs before the enemy gets infestors, that's his fault.
On June 05 2008 10:45 FrozenArbiter wrote:
The mothership is one of a kind tho, I like the arbiter better (who could have guessed given my name huh?)
oh, i was wondering why you kept saying you were biased. i guess i didn't try to figure out it out.
|
On June 05 2008 11:47 dcttr66 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2008 07:58 Caller wrote:
By the way, how are terrans supposed to deal with infested marines without medics? not only can you not produce units, but you have no medics so your 50 mins marines will get raped and the free infested marines will just rape the fck out of everything. GG. what are you thinking? infestors coming before medivacs? i don't think so. if the terran can't get medivacs before the enemy gets infestors, that's his fault. Show nested quote +On June 05 2008 10:45 FrozenArbiter wrote:
The mothership is one of a kind tho, I like the arbiter better (who could have guessed given my name huh?) oh, i was trying to figure out why you kept saying you were biased. i guess i didn't try very hard.
true fact:
infesters are tier 2 tech, i.e. lair
medivacs are tier 2.5/3 tech, i.e. barraks---> factory ---> starport
|
Why? I'm not sure what you mean.
I think protoss being able to warp in units to far away location is extremely protoss, the mobile pylons are not really pylons (dont generate food) but a secondary mode for the new shuttle (phase prism). I don't think protoss have moving cannons anymore either, although zerg might have moving sunkens (not clear on what the latest word on that is).
Queen secreting creep is.. I think it's good because it opens the door for zerg cheese finally, which is good. I think it will create some interesting builds with the queen in the long run, good idea in my book.
Could you elaborate on why you feel this hurts race distinction?
Oh I didn't know the mobile pylons didn't give food. I guess the warp in makes sense for Protoss, but Anyway, Ultralisks are like the antithesis of the typical zerg unit. They are big, look powerful in SC2, and can burrow? I just think that first off, a large unit is not zerg, and burrow for a large unit is kinda unrealistic.
Secrete creep could provides some interesting strategies, its a side thing and I guess is kinda zerg like, being as they are supposed to "swarm".
Zerg get the corrupter, which (in demos) seem good. Probably hard to get such massive numbers, but I think zerg should be based more on swarming than special abilities, like Protoss are supposed to be good at. Psionic abilities. Keep them distinct. Terran get reactor cores. Faster production. Thats getting into the zerg realm.
Basically, I like the new Protoss units, they fit the strong and expensive category. Stalker is interesting and yet still Protoss. Zerg is borderline. Queen, well, we'll see how the gameplay is on that one. But corrupter and those spellcasters are somewhat un-zerg like. Well not necessarily un-zerg like, but its definitely more in the Protoss realm. Terran, I don't know what's going on with them. But Vikings are good. Probably they'll have to revise them later. Anyway, I'd like to keep Starcraft being micro oriented rather while at the same time keeping the races distinct.
|
On June 05 2008 11:52 Caller wrote:
true fact:
infesters are tier 2 tech, i.e. lair
medivacs are tier 2.5/3 tech, i.e. barraks---> factory ---> starport
no, terran units are not in teirs.
you can't compare zerg tiers to protoss and terran tiers because you don't have the same kind of pace with all that. if you call the terrans and protoss having tiers...and the zerg...then there isn't a proper system to judge it all with...
old system:
for example.
mutalisks are tier 2
queens are tier 2
ultralisks are tier 3
zerglings are tier 1
lurkers are tier 2
hydralisks are tier 1
now, if you apply your idea of techs...
science vessel is tier 6 (rax, fact, star, control, science fac)
battlecruiser is tier 7 (rax, fact, star, control, science fac, physics lab)
siege tank is tier 3 (rax, fact, shop)
goliath is tier 3 (rax, fact, armory)
vulture is tier 2 (rax, fact)
marines are tier 1 (rax)
medics are tier 2 (rax, academy)
mutalisks are tier 3 (pool, lair, spire)
ultralisks are tier 5 (pool, lair, nest, hive, den)
defilers are tier 5 (pool, lair, nest, hive, mound)
guardians are tier 6 (pool, lair, nest, hive, spire, greater)
queens are tier 3 (pool, lair, nest)
lurkers are tier 3 (pool, den, lair)
hydralisks are tier 2 (pool, den)
as you can see, a medivac being built at your reckoning would be tier 3, same as a mutalisk.
same as a lurker(of old), and if my guess is right, same as an infestor.
edit: well, the medivac might very well require control tower or whatever...so maybe it's really tier 4...but there isn't that big of a jump between those...
and anyway you can't compare those because the protoss and terrans don't have to upgrade their main hall. they just build new buildings or in the case of the terrans they get addons.
|
Sweden33723 Posts
Zerg get the corrupter, which (in demos) seem good. Probably hard to get such massive numbers, but I think zerg should be based more on swarming than special abilities, like Protoss are supposed to be good at. Psionic abilities. Keep them distinct. Terran get reactor cores. Faster production. Thats getting into the zerg realm.
About the zerg, I actually feel like they have become LESS about special abilities. Let me elaborate;
in SC modern ZvT is mostly about stalling until hive tech for swarm, very unlike how zerg played just 5 or so years ago (wow, just 5 huh? time flies, doesnt seem that long ago).
With the infestor at tier two (not sure if it gets swarm then) but with no consume and lurkers at tier 3, I'm thinking they might want zerg to pick one of 3 routes once they reach hive tech -
the lurker, for swarm/lurker play, ultralisk for the more mass-swarmy stuff or guardian.
This is of course speculation, but wtih the lurker out of the mid-game zerg will have to rely on their more swarmy units right (lings, hydras, maybe roaches)?
I don't know of course, but it's my initial thoughts.
@Post above me, eh, you could just simplify things and call rax tier 1, fac tier 2, starport tier 3, considering you need a rax to build a fac and a fac to build a starport much like you go from hatch to lair to hive.
Also, as I said, blizzard themselves refer to the ghosts as tier 1.5 units.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
