On June 05 2008 02:04 Caller wrote: With marines ALWAYS as a mineral sink, you will always end up using biomech builds, like it or not, which to be honest is soooo boring if its the same thing all the time. I liked having vultures and whatnot.
Honestly, I don't see why this is more boring than going factory builds all the time.
But strategy divergence will be in where you spend your gas on. That's clear to me with only gasless unit.
And, protoss and zerg always get their basic unit. Well, almost always. It's just that T didn't have to because they had both vultures and dropships.
Also, cracklings are gone.
Also, FA's argument. Didn't we have this one article saying randomness makes bad competitive games? Now we have people saying there needs to be randomness otherwise it's not exiting?
BleuNuit, I opened a topic about that. Blizz has to add new stuff, even if it makes the game worse. If they can't come up with even better units than reavers and vultures, they will have to remove those anyway and do with something inferior.
Terrans always build siege tanks, Protoss Zeals, and Zerg Zerglings. You're saying now we need to spend it only on marines, and to help marines we need ghosts. Protoss aren't required to get more than one unit, as is zerg. But now terran has to get 3 kinds of units.
Randomness in terms of unit, not in strategy, is what FA is saying. And dropships cost gas.
Also, in terms of gas, hydras and dragoons cost pretty low amounts of gas, they're basically mineral units.
Having to go bio in all 3 matchups would suck to me.
Yeah, but that's besides the point. I mean, that's the reason why I brought it up in the first place.
The thing is that protoss builds all their backbone units from their gateway. And then additional and specialized units are build from the other buildings.
Zerg lack production buildings altogether.
Is it actually good to force a player to make a choice regarding what production building to get? What if you split up the gateway? Zealots, and templar from one. And Stalkers and Immortals from the other. Would that add to strategy?
The thing seems that zealots and zerglings worked better as a mineral sink was because they were quick and could be used as cannon fodder. You can't do that with marines, ever. You could with vultures. Is that the main issue here?
Having to go bio in all 3 matchups would suck to me.
Yeah, but that's besides the point. I mean, that's the reason why I brought it up in the first place.
The thing is that protoss builds all their backbone units from their gateway. And then additional and specialized units are build from the other buildings.
Zerg lack production buildings altogether.
Is it actually good to force a player to make a choice regarding what production building to get? What if you split up the gateway? Zealots, and templar from one. And Stalkers and Immortals from the other. Would that add to strategy?
The thing seems that zealots and zerglings worked better as a mineral sink was because they were quick and could be used as cannon fodder. You can't do that with marines, ever. You could with vultures. Is that the main issue here?
I'm a little confused as to what we're arguing over here.. Maybe there's been some misunderstanding o_O
To recap; Caller said it would be boring to always have to go marines (ie the only mineral sink) and that he liked having vultures as an option.
You said you didn't see how this were different from having to go factory builds everytime (I took this to mean mech, maybe you meant that you have to get a factory in every matchup) which was what I was replying to.
I don't know wether it's "good" or "bad" to have to choose between two production routes, I think it was an interesting feature for the terrans (one that obviously worked out quite well). So even if zerg and toss don't have it that way I see no reason why the terrans couldnt continue on that path.
On June 05 2008 00:43 moebius_string wrote: To find out whether this game has unit quirks like Starcraft and is as exciting to play means you have to wait for ALL the units to be released and play it moderately. Trying to shoehorn in old units that don't fit in the game design for the sake of nostalgia is a bad idea. I would rather see M&M in BroodWar where it actually fits the game ,than see a poor copy of it in SC2. Just look at the Mutalisks in SC2;if it plays differently than the original perhaps it should be different to begin with.
did you actually read the thread
I read the thread. Read my post and you see my reaction to it.
if you read the thread you'd notice how we're not trying to shoehorn in old units for the sake of nostalgia. It's just that we don't like these new units b/c they're so BORING. I don't understand how you can make a flying medic exciting. Unless it was a medic with a jetpack.
The only reason the medivac is in the game, realistically, is to support the reaper. The reaper is like the pet terran unit, its getting all this stuff just to allow it to stay in the game. I mean i like it, but no point making units solely b/c of so and so.
Read up above I edited my post. The game is in alpha. That may explain why it seems boring at the moment.
I don't think the game seems boring overall, I think the changes mentioned in the original post are a step back however.
If they really want to remove the reaver, the vulture and the medivac I would like to see BETTER replacements for them. I don't really see the point in replacing the vulture with a less-interesting but visually very similiar unit, and the medic with a unit that performs the exact same thing but worse. The colossus is good at least - even if I still hope there's room for the reaver.
Blizzard has said themselves they want to fix the mutalisk micro btw.
On June 05 2008 03:41 FrozenArbiter wrote: Blizzard has said themselves they want to fix the mutalisk micro btw.
That part never made sense to me. If they were going to bring back the Muta with no changes, why not make it handle the same way as BroodWar. If it doesn't handle the same you might as well change it.
EDIT: In reference to mutas. I think they intended for it to handle the same way but it ended up being different because of the engine. The way mutas handle now seems pretty ehh, not as fun, which I think is important. They have said it wont be 100% the same as in BW which is fine, but from the videos it seems very hard to hit and run with them, which is what I think they intended for the mutas' role to be anyway.
On June 05 2008 04:05 edahl wrote: I agree completely. I'm going to miss the reaver if it disappears forever. Also, the jackal seems like a degraded vulture.
BTW, I think drop-pods are out of multi-player.
The jackals sort of "shock wave" (tauren hero from warcraft3) could set up some extemely exciting situations. It would also force the opponent to position there army in a different way. The jackal is pretty much combining the vultures normal attack with its spider mine into one attack. I for one think that is really cool.
Even though I think the reaver is cool, I don't really care its going, we have so many new units that can fill its role!
i agree on vulture -> jackal slightly being boring at the moment. I mean i love the line AOE because it makes positioning much much more important but I wish that there was some equivalent to mines or something else to make them more than just a hyperactive terran lurker and give them that ability to limit enemy mobility...
well. i do agree that the medivac is kind of stupid. I think that marine<->medic is an awesome relationship in SC1, but at the moment SC2 terran is oversaturated to hell with infantry units and that's a hell of of a problem i think many of you are underestimating... maybe if the marauder's slowing was given to the jackal (and the marauder cut), then medics would be good to be back in? or just as like some kind of slowing-mine ability or slowing-grenade or something. The marauder's only purpose it seems is to make other terran infantry more viable. This could make both the marauder and jackal much more interesting? I do agree that the medic was interesting, but the reaper and ghost are much more interesting to me... however, the marauder is actually bland as hell now that i'm thinking about it.
On June 04 2008 02:11 anotak wrote: I actually slowly am starting to see where they're going with trying to replace the vulture, removing the reaver, adding immortals, nerfing storm (i know they buffed it again but from what i understand it's still not sc1 strength): Biomech for all terran matchups.
Biomech is extremely exciting. They are trying very hard to remove the slowpush it seems, in favor of something more dynamic. They're also trying to make siege tanks not be the focus of the terran army with counters to them (immortals, vikings (combined version of current goliaths with dropships dropped onto the top of siege tanks), etc). I love biomech and seeing it as the standard build would be pretty awesome.
However, I don't know what the hell the jackal is supposed to be for, and the medivac. They should probably remove the medivac. but it could be interesting if they gave it irradiate and dmatrix. I want those spells back, especially dmatrix. I know that irradiate turned around a lot of games but it's actually a really simple game mechanic that's not always that great, idk. plus it's only anti-zerg, it'd be a lot more interesting if it could be viable in tvt and tvp. Maybe irradiate with a nerf (ex. 100 energy?). I know snipe fills irradiate's niche, but the combination of the 2 dmatrix and irradiate creates an awesome dynamic, especially if they're the same cost (do i irradiate or do i dmatrix??). However I wish battlecruisers were no longer in the game. They're so boring, slow etc. I hate big huge slow units, they never give the game anything interesting. Maybe give the medivac the plasma torpedos (or allow it to choose either, yamato or plasma torpedos), dmatrix, and no irradiate... but then it might be too powerful. All of these things of excitement partially arrive out of mobility (speed shuttle, stimmed rines, speedvults). And the thor, get that out of my sight. so boring. Battlecruisers are not iconic of terran, nobody ever uses them. That's like saying that valks are iconic of terran.
However... as a combination I just realized this could be either pretty bad or pretty cool: group of marines in a medivac. turrets on the way to drop site get yamato'd, medivacs then dmatrix themselves to prevent further damage... that would be imba as hell at first glance however i think that could be still done right. Maybe instead of something like yamato, make it similar to irradiate but it can attack mech too but not buildings, so it's not instant and gives plenty of time to react and retains the aoe damage over time of irradiate.
Jackal, idk, it could be rather interesting, if it's done right. Line AOE like lurker can be pretty fucking bad. imagine 12 jackals behind a mineral line, it'd be gone in seconds... it depends on whether Jackals are as cheap as vultures. Also, they'd be a lot more interesting with some kind of special ability for the Jackals however. Vults without mines are weak as hell, part of what makes them so good at mineral harass or harass in general is that you can limit the mobility of your opponent / slow them waiting for obs and attacking mines. Not only did they move faster they could slow the enemy, kill them as they left factories. Maybe give them some small temporary machine gun turrets they drop down that have pretty short range and limited ammunition. They give you map control. Terran's power was never in mobility, Terran's power was in limiting the other guy's mobility.
also, on the subject of shooting uphill doing 75% miss chance, i wouldn't mind that being changed to 75% damage. stupid randomness.
this is just a shitload of random ideas, i might not have thought all of this through well enough...
I agree with every word of this post, wow. Randomness sucks, damage reduction is much better. And biomech is awesome to watch, of course! A slow-push can be nice but it definitely is not too fun to watch.
And the OP post I agree with as well, reavers are just incredibly exciting. Same with spider mines - will the opponent walk on them and turn his goons into blue soup? I am not seeing very good replacements for this stuff in SC2 currently.
edit - btw, I don`t believe that Reaver scarabs are truly random.
On June 05 2008 04:09 FrozenArbiter wrote: EDIT: In reference to mutas. I think they intended for it to handle the same way but it ended up being different because of the engine. The way mutas handle now seems pretty ehh, not as fun, which I think is important. They have said it wont be 100% the same as in BW which is fine, but from the videos it seems very hard to hit and run with them, which is what I think they intended for the mutas' role to be anyway.
Yeah, I think the problem is in the long attack animation though. I think they're working on it.
Also, cracklings are gone.
Could it be because they surround so much better? It looks like it from the videos. And there's room for more lings around an object or unit, so I think crack could make them imba.
On June 04 2008 03:20 FrozenArbiter wrote: Yeah I don't have anything against the medivac as long as it doesnt REPLACE the medic. Like, if the medivac was a late game upgrade for the dropship or something then sure yeah whatever, it doesn't really bother me that much because I wont have to mass produce medivacs to heal my army.. Just don't have it be the main healer unit.
Sorry this is from page two but i have something too say. Medivacs heal multiple units at a time. that means 1 medivac could equal 2-3 medics. Therefore you won't have too mass produce medivacs unless your 200 supply army only consists of infantry.
Medivac also opens up a new air unit to kill. This gives even more excitement to marines/medivac attacks. Since each medivac is worth 2-3 normal medics it will be a huge loss if it dies. Medivac micro will be huge, and people will most likely build air units to accompany it. In my opinion marine/marauder/medivac/viking is cooler than marine/firebat/medic.
How big is their range? How much mana do they have? Do they have 3x the mana of a medic? Do they have to run back and forth to heal? Etc. To me none of this REALLY matters tho, I dislike the unit as a unit and regardless of how the unit actually plays once you get to it, it still will negatively impact the early game. I don't think it will play that well, but even if it does play ok I think it's an inferior unit (bleh not sure how well I put this).
I don't see why you'd build air units to accompany the medivac, did you build wraiths to accompany your vessels? Nah, the marines protect them.
In my opinion marine/marauder/medivac/viking is cooler than marine/firebat/medic.
A marine/marauder/medic army is exactly the same only it doesn't ruin the early game micro potential.
We don´t even know if the Medivac needs Energy at all or if they will grant it additional abilities. I´m shure Blizzard would like your Crystal Ball since back then they couldn´t predict the micro potentional of Reavers and Mutalisks etc...
EPT
