EPT[D] Bring back excitement to SC2 - Page 2
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On June 04 2008 02:54 FrozenArbiter wrote: Shuttle (phase prism) is much faster + can't be hit by ground (colossus can be hit by both) + can walk over buildings + you could use it's new pylon thing to warp in some troops to support your drop without leaving your colossus/reaver alone. I honestly see no reason why not use shuttle with the colossus. You don't need it to get there like the reaver did but you can still use it for great support and it. They build from the same building, so you could build the colossus before the shuttle do some harass while shuttle is building, then run to shuttle's safety when defense comes in.Dropping a colossus seems pointless when it can walk on its own? Further, I might be wrong but I don't think the colossus attack lends itself to the same awesome shuttle dodging that happened in reaver vs reaver battles. And finally, the colossus fires a 100% hit attack. There's not much excitement in knowing for sure that those 10 probes are gonna die. hmmmm that's one very interesting point. I have to agree. Maybe if the colossus attack was a slow moving missile that can be dodged? They should definetly change that.Jackals and nomads well there is just too much we don't know about them to judge imo. Think of it what if Jackals are just Vultures with lurker attack and Nomads mines are as common in TvP but now they can fly to, unsuspectingly, place mines between their main army and reinforcements! That would be exciting ^^ And while we did lose the early game pressure of m&m, you must remember there's lots of new early game offensive harassing option with reapers/mines and maybe with marauders. Yea you do lose something cool, but you get something that could be (potentially) as cool. And later when mid game comes, you get your stim + heals back and with even more micro options. | ||
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InRaged
1047 Posts
On June 04 2008 02:54 FrozenArbiter wrote: And finally, the colossus fires a 100% hit attack. There's not much excitement in knowing for sure that those 10 probes are gonna die.. I'm actually right now drawing fan-art picture for suggestion that I'll put in the corresponding thread. The point would be - replacing colossus row-of-lazerz with several bombs, which do essentially same (linear splash damage) but firstly, would imho feel more "Protossish" than lasers and secondly, since they're bombs, there would be delay between attack and actual damage. How do you think? | ||
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On June 04 2008 03:44 InRaged wrote: Do it! Plasma bombs! (but should be 1 super bomb at a time imo, not several bombies, so it's not too similar to banshee + keeps excitement of 1-hit-blows-lots-of-shit-up)I'm actually right now drawing fan-art picture for suggestion that I'll put in the corresponding thread. The point would be - replacing colossus row-of-lazerz with several bombs, which do essentially same (linear splash damage) but firstly, would imho feel more "Protossish" than lasers and secondly, since they're bombs, there would be delay between attack and actual damage. How do you think? Maybe even make it a flying scarab that would try to run to the target after it lands, and would be just as dumb as the original one  | ||
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Archaic
United States4024 Posts
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SirNeb
United States243 Posts
Just face it, sc/bw is very hard to beat. I just hope blizzard does not make the mistake of going beta and say it's too late to make those needed drastic changes. | ||
Chosi
Germany1309 Posts
So keep the random scarab and all that goes in the same categorie, or create new ones. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
At the same time they have a few lore-based units with no gameplay prosperities or characteristics, not tactical roles, and they just get redesigned over and over. The vulture was probably the most gosu unit in SC. And the reaver one of the most exciting. Of course they need to do new for the sake of new. But why are they keeping boring units like the BC? And cutting these two? And replacing them with units that aren't that exciting. Not to mention the Thor and Mothership. And the Nomad, is it really more micro intensive than the SV? And for people who think I am against change, I do think removing the medic is a good idea. Medic was needed to fix balance. It's not really exciting, except it forming walls which messes up the AI. Also, the siege tank being so dominant. If they want change and freshness they should really have done something about that. But no. They made it do even more damage, have a bit more hp and double the gas. Range, splash AND insane damage all at the same time. I don't see much creativity, much exciting ideas, signs that they realize why some units make exciting competitive RTS and other's don't. The medivac seems to actually be a good idea. It makes going dropship play when you have marines, a good idea. And getting marines when you do dropship play also a good idea. Not sure if that will actually turn out good in practice. A gunship or some APC is a terrible idea. Flying bunker? Dropship with guns? I don't get it. It only makes the dropship more expensive. And it will never be as strong as a genuine air unit. I also wonder what Blizzard's idea about a second resource is. What does it actually add to the game? No more fact units that don't take gas. Is it just a feature to force the player to make the one unit that is mineral only? The most basic unit for each race? And you only get those because you need a mineral sink. Is that the way to use a second resource? What about a third? | ||
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genwar
Canada537 Posts
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
On June 04 2008 02:54 FrozenArbiter wrote: I don't think they gave any, just "the reaver is out of the current build" then nothing more. I fear this so much. Terran having 2 hugely different modes (metal vs bionic) was soooooo cool.. To be honest it wasn't really 2 hugely different modes other than in TvZ. In TvP and TvT bio is more of a what-the-fuck near cheese strategy, it doesn't work very effectively outside of certain timing windows and especially if it's scouted then it's completely fucked (especially in TvP with psi storm and reavers and dts). Only in TvZ is metal viable sometimes (mainly if you're Flash)... and that's even only if you get on huge macro maps like Katrina with big huge cliffs that are convenient locations for siege tanks where early attacking is much less viable. To be honest it's not really 2 "options" as much as all the other races get to use a lot of their units in most matchups whereas terran gets a shitload of units that are nearly useless in a lot of situations (vessel tvt, valkyrie every matchup, bio in tvt and tvp, mech in tvz, wraith outside of tvt, battlecruiser every matchup except for the extremely rare tvt, firebats except tvz, etc). Probably the only unit that's always usable in every matchup is the SCV and the siege tank. Yeah I did forget about the nomad having spidermines, however we don't know how much use the nomad will see, compared to vultures which were used in every TvP. I don't know, I think nomad will be a pretty big part of all matchups, perhaps only TvZ will be excluded. It has nothing to do with how easy/hard the medivac is to kill, what bothers me is; - It's a high tech unit. - Having a bunch of flying units hovering over your army running back and forth without you asking them to because they are trying to heal that marine that's across the screen sounds like a complete nightmare to me. If you watch some of the videos linked (ie boxer's immortal marines for instance) you realize this could never happen in a game with the medivac right? It's just too high tech and too clumsy comparatively. Dropship micro is very nearly pointless with marines because of their very low HP (although with the somewhat higher HP in sc2 it might be slightly less so), overall I don't see it being all that fun. I hate SCV auto-repair btw. Yeah i agree a lot. also, how the hell does right clicking on a friendly unit work, heal or pick up?? While that argument can be made for the medic->medivac change (even though I think it's incorrect), I don't see how the reaver->colossus or vulture-> jackal change would ever lead to "more excitement". Vulture -> Jackal is a pretty tough one without spidermines or anything else that serves a similar role or another special ability... however the line AOE could be pretty fucking awesome. Sure, it's a measly 10 damage, but if placed right that's 10 damage on several workers. 6 jackals and they all fire 3-4 shots and suddenly your worker count at that expo goes down from 20 to 4... that's pretty fucking scary. reaver->colossus... well, i'm not a protoss player and i'm not really sure how that'll play out. to be honest it seems like colossus will be mainly only useful in PvZ, seems like viking and phoenix will be too hard counters to it. not really sure... to be honest I hope that they replace the lasers with some kind of giant bomb thing that has a delay to hit, and an AOE. Kind of like Warcraft 2 catapults that can be dodged. | ||
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
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ggfobster
United States298 Posts
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
On June 04 2008 04:37 ggfobster wrote: This thread sucks. No way in hell the reaver is better than the colussus, and actually I prefer the medivac over the medic. Although I do agree with you on the vulture... Could you elaborate? | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
the dropships all got immediately scourged as soon as they arrived scourge may not be present in sc2, but now what you have is a situation with no healing, and the marines would get raped by drones. Here's another thing to consider without the medic: anti zergling. Consider that as soon as two units popped up, the zerglings were no longer AS effective as they were vs. marines. Those units were the firebat and the medic. With stim, the marines were able to wipe out zergling groups. Now there are no medics and no firebats. If you don't stim, the marines will get massacred by a zergling surround. As soon as you stim, the zerg player can run away and wait for the stim to wear off. Also, without marines and medics, how are you going to break zerg defenses/queen? siege tanks? humor me. No more exciting sunken breaks. I friggen loved  SyncLook at my tribute to the speedling blog. See just how badly two dozen lousy speedlings and half a dozen unmicroed muta did to a terran defense WITH medics and firebats. Now imagine if there were no medics and no firebats. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
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InRaged
1047 Posts
On June 04 2008 04:26 anotak wrote: To be honest it wasn't really 2 hugely different modes other than in TvZ. In TvP and TvT bio is more of a what-the-fuck near cheese strategy, it doesn't work very effectively outside of certain timing windows and especially if it's scouted then it's completely fucked (especially in TvP with psi storm and reavers and dts). Only in TvZ is metal viable sometimes (mainly if you're Flash)... and that's even only if you get on huge macro maps like Katrina with big huge cliffs that are convenient locations for siege tanks where early attacking is much less viable. To be honest it's not really 2 "options" as much as all the other races get to use a lot of their units in most matchups whereas terran gets a shitload of units that are nearly useless in a lot of situations (vessel tvt, valkyrie every matchup, bio in tvt and tvp, mech in tvz, wraith outside of tvt, battlecruiser every matchup except for the extremely rare tvt, firebats except tvz, etc). Probably the only unit that's always usable in every matchup is the SCV and the siege tank. The fact that bio isn't viable in TvP and TvT is exactly where terran should be improved, imo. Terran has huge potential in this aspect, why ignore it? That would be like having two races in one - bio-terran and mech-terran. And I'd say that's absolutely unclear whether blizz is working on it or not, sadly. And in that game vs Kal Forgg used bio, not biomech (only 1 factory, standard in TvZ) | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
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ProTech_MediC
United States498 Posts
On June 04 2008 04:37 ggfobster wrote: This post sucks. No way in hell is this colossus better than the reaver, and actually I prefer the medic over the medivac.This thread sucks. No way in hell the reaver is better than the colussus, and actually I prefer the medivac over the medic. Although I do agree with you on the vulture... | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On June 04 2008 05:52 Louder wrote: Was it actually Blizzard's intent for scarabs to be duds so often? I always thought it was just bad code, giving the scarab the same attack move style targetting AI other units have. It can catch a unit, effecitvely, running along side it, but never explode because when it gets close enough.. .some AI bullshit happens and fucks it. Yes, the since the Reaver is kind of the Protoss Nuke equivalent. Think of the wasted resources when a full Reaver dies, the need for a shuttle ("hidden cost")... For "lesser" players Reavers were too much a random element and they are even for Pros not 100% predictable. I thought we hated randomness in competative games? Players expect a better AI - meaning that some stuff that RELIED on the carefull implementation of the old system had to change/leave. If scarabs would always hit (as they should!) they would have been to strong - it´s one out of 2 ammos you actually have to pay for and don´t get guarrentied return - the other is the nuke. Ok there are interceptors but they are a bit different. Right now Collossi rely on carefull positioning as their Firing pattern is unique and only effective against lazy enemys that allow their units to line up against the Collossis. (the 144 was when Collossi hit one Target at a time) Also I don´t agree with some of the replacement matchups. I´d place Vulture -> Reaver since it´s all about harrasment potentional and colorfull use of skills - D8 CAN work on units but it will be hard, just like Spidermines in a way. And Medic was split up between Marauder (early support for Marines) and Medivac (Healing). As mentioned before we can expect a better AI meaning that walls wouldn´t work as before anyway. And just think of the Medivac/SCV relationship - it makes the Transport unit itself more attractive to inexperienced players and adds excitement to keep it alive, it might even make Field repairs more popular. | ||
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