• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:59
CEST 06:59
KST 13:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall12HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed10Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll4Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
REAL ILLUMINATI AGENT KAMPALA+256782561496/0756664 Who will win EWC 2025? RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Starcraft in widescreen A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 682 users

ESL addresses recent EPT points issues

Forum Index > SC2 General
33 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 Next All
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33359 Posts
April 09 2020 19:43 GMT
#1
ESL's Shaun "Apollo" Clark posted the following statement on Reddit:


Okay this took a while to write, sorry for the wall of text but needed.

Firstly, I really apologize for being distant in recent times. Our workload at ESL has been incredibly high and there's been a thousand moving pieces spread across our team as we are try to adapt to a different world. Evidently we haven't been paying enough attention to the details which has led to some strange decisions in recent months. In this post for you, I will cover all important topics that you as a community deserve to have insight into. I will start with our approach around the ESL Pro Tour point allocation, moving into the TakeTV situation, followed by the Super Tournament decision and then our outlook moving forward.

ESL Point Allocation

Firstly, to understand our intent around point allocation, it's important for you to understand our philosophy. Upon launching the ESL Pro Tour we had a very exclusive approach to our point system, prioritizing tournaments with the fairest possible conditions for players with the most equal opportunities. Within the last couple of weeks I spoke to some trusted friends within the SC2 community to discuss how we can start to adapt our philosophy to be more inclusive of other tournaments, cross server play, less ideal conditions etc. Our priority was to keep the ESL Pro Tour the central point of competitive play and an important pillar within the community. With that said, that gives you insight to our approach & intent behind working with TaKe & others around point allocation that would have been more challenging originally.

TakeTV situation

Now with understanding our intent. TakeTV approached us 2 weeks ago for point allocation. Our mistake here was simply oversight, we didn't go into enough detail focusing too much on the intent, we concentrated on the outcome rather than the process. We agreed & communicated to TakeTV ahead of their qualifiers that their tournament would receive points and that the distribution of points would be figured out once we understood their exact format details - once that was done, we communicated their point allocation which then went public almost instantly. I personally didn't even go into detail on the ratio of invite/qualifiers as I was pushing my team to find a solution to make the outcome we wanted, work. We rushed a decision while under pressure elsewhere and I see the consequences now, however I understand our mistake. I'll talk more about how we will fix that, along with other items at the end.

Super Tournament decision

Now to the Super tournament situation earlier this year. This one has a few angles, so bare with me please. Firstly I'll talk on awarding and then removing points & then I'll go into the decision on whether the tournament should have had points or not. Firstly, before any information was made public, we were in a healthy discussion with both Blizzard & AfreecaTV on our thought process and our decision which was that we wouldn't award ST points. Unfortunately we made a mistake to publish an outdated rule book which had an allocation for the ST despite our decision to not allocate. Once our team realized the mistake, we simply uploaded the correct rule book without the allocation and communicated accordingly. This timing and execution was poorly handled and I apologize to all players for this. Now let's talk about why the Super Tournament wasn't allocated points in the first place. At the time of the decision we simply made a mistake, it should have awarded points and I've addressed this internally and moving forward we will ensure mistakes like this don't happen again. However with hindsight the decision is even simpler, the Super Tournament should not have awarded points because it was not communicated to players ahead of qualifiers beginning, this is a critical item for us that players are given notice and will be a requirement for the ESL Pro Tour moving forward.

Outlook moving forward

I think its very clear we need to set some internal & external guidelines on how we need to work together with much better transparency and communication on our decisions. We will be rolling out changes in the next 1-2 weeks to make sure these situations don't happen again. Another piece of information I wanted to leave with you, is that we are working on some adjustments to the ESL Pro Tour and will be releasing information on some revamps in the coming weeks.
Facebook Twitter Reddit
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
holdensc2
Profile Blog Joined January 2020
6 Posts
April 09 2020 20:10 GMT
#2
Apollo out here still saving StarCraft, communication is key and it seems like the ESL team understands that and realizes they have been lacking a little bit in some areas and instantly address the issue. This clears up a lot that I was confused about and makes me happy being reminded how much passion and work is getting put into StarCraft right now.
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
April 09 2020 20:48 GMT
#3
So EPT points will only be awarded if that is announced before the qualifiers for a tournament, both retroactive (SAHSC and ST1) and going forward? Sounds perfectly fair because before the qualifiers is when players have to decide whether to try to qualify.

Great job ESL and Apollo! We know you’re working hard during these wild times and we appreciate you.
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33359 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-09 20:58:09
April 09 2020 20:58 GMT
#4
I don't quite get why Super Tournament isn't getting its points back, though, if ESL is admitting that it SHOULD have awarded points. If you can retroactively take them away, it seems simple to retroactively add them back after realizing the error.

I get that TECHNICALLY not announcing points before an event can affect participation, but PRACTICALLY speaking everyone who played in Super Tournament qualifiers was going to have played regardless of the info.
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55511 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-09 21:17:51
April 09 2020 21:15 GMT
#5
On April 10 2020 05:58 Waxangel wrote:
I don't quite get why Super Tournament isn't getting its points back, though, if ESL is admitting that it SHOULD have awarded points. If you can retroactively take them away, it seems simple to retroactively add them back after realizing the error.

I get that TECHNICALLY not announcing points before an event can affect participation, but PRACTICALLY speaking everyone who played in Super Tournament qualifiers was going to have played regardless of the info.

They decided in advance there would be no points. Blizzard and Afreeca knew, the players should have known through Afreeca. Only we as fans and viewers couldn't have known (as usual) because it wasn't communicated to us, all we had was an incorrect rulebook. So the players weren't stripped of any points, they weren't meant to receive any in the first place. With that in mind I think it's fine.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
BaneRiders
Profile Joined August 2013
Sweden3630 Posts
April 09 2020 21:20 GMT
#6
On April 10 2020 05:58 Waxangel wrote:
I don't quite get why Super Tournament isn't getting its points back, though, if ESL is admitting that it SHOULD have awarded points. If you can retroactively take them away, it seems simple to retroactively add them back after realizing the error.

I get that TECHNICALLY not announcing points before an event can affect participation, but PRACTICALLY speaking everyone who played in Super Tournament qualifiers was going to have played regardless of the info.


Apollo says why: It wasn't communicated to the players before the qualifiers. This is very simple principle. All players should know beforehand exactly what is at stake.
Earth, Water, Air and Protoss!
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-09 21:23:05
April 09 2020 21:21 GMT
#7
On April 10 2020 06:15 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2020 05:58 Waxangel wrote:
I don't quite get why Super Tournament isn't getting its points back, though, if ESL is admitting that it SHOULD have awarded points. If you can retroactively take them away, it seems simple to retroactively add them back after realizing the error.

I get that TECHNICALLY not announcing points before an event can affect participation, but PRACTICALLY speaking everyone who played in Super Tournament qualifiers was going to have played regardless of the info.

They decided in advance there would be no points. Blizzard and Afreeca knew, the players should have known through Afreeca. Only we as fans and viewers couldn't have known (as usual) because it wasn't communicated to us, all we had was an incorrect rulebook. So the players weren't stripped of any points, they weren't meant to receive any in the first place. With that in mind I think it's fine.


Based on the Twitter chatter, some if not all of the players thought there were EPT points on the line, so there was a communication breakdown at the very least.
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
April 09 2020 22:50 GMT
#8
I still don't get what issue super tournament has that means it shouldn't have points?
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33359 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-10 01:20:17
April 09 2020 23:36 GMT
#9
On April 10 2020 06:20 BaneRiders wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2020 05:58 Waxangel wrote:
I don't quite get why Super Tournament isn't getting its points back, though, if ESL is admitting that it SHOULD have awarded points. If you can retroactively take them away, it seems simple to retroactively add them back after realizing the error.

I get that TECHNICALLY not announcing points before an event can affect participation, but PRACTICALLY speaking everyone who played in Super Tournament qualifiers was going to have played regardless of the info.


Apollo says why: It wasn't communicated to the players before the qualifiers. This is very simple principle. All players should know beforehand exactly what is at stake.


hence my last line

I understand the technicality the points were removed on, but given the history of the ST always having points, and the other stakes of the super tournament (money, prestige, blah blah) the practical reality is that ESL points probably would have had zero impact on participation (i.e.: There's no player who didn't try to qualify for ST because there were no points announced at the time)
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
RealityTheGreat
Profile Joined January 2018
China564 Posts
April 09 2020 23:40 GMT
#10
puck you

User was warned for this post.
Betrayed, forgotten, abandoned.
Morbidius
Profile Joined November 2010
Brazil3449 Posts
April 10 2020 00:10 GMT
#11
How can a seasoned esport organization fuck this up so badly? The super tournament situation was extremely unprofessional.
Has foreign StarCraft hit rock bottom?
dalecooper
Profile Joined July 2019
56 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-10 00:43:08
April 10 2020 00:20 GMT
#12
A lack of organization recruitment and team up in ESL is simply unfair to players. April 2020. The season has begun. But the mighty RULE-BOOK was not even updated? What a b*llshit story they have trying to sell us. Obviously a mistake has been made. ESL must give back all points to Super Tournament.
What is the point of organization that can't even do a simple rule-book in the begging of year?
pointless
vyzion
Profile Joined August 2016
308 Posts
April 10 2020 00:24 GMT
#13
On April 10 2020 09:10 Morbidius wrote:
How can a seasoned esport organization fuck this up so badly? The super tournament situation was extremely unprofessional.


it was fine, take it easy.
LTCM
Profile Joined May 2017
174 Posts
April 10 2020 00:31 GMT
#14
Let's run an SC2 league. We can......Look, a squirrel!

That pretty much sums up the professionalism of ESL
Byun is a convicted match-fixer.
greyhoundz
Profile Joined July 2018
3 Posts
April 10 2020 01:00 GMT
#15
It's unfair that Super Tournament players were not awarded ESL points just because they were not notified beforehand. ST is a Premier Tournament.

God-level Korean titans and foreign players in Korea will work hard and die for it winning the ST. The qualifiers alone are stacked and looks like hell.

They treated ST1 as garbage tournament as if it was just a Wood and Paper League that nobody cares about. Yes, we all know it's a mistake, but a despicable one that caused this injustice.
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
April 10 2020 01:09 GMT
#16
Y'all need to chill out. Sure ESL made mistakes. But some people are acting as if ESL killed their dog.
Howard_Kao
Profile Joined September 2018
China261 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-10 01:15:36
April 10 2020 01:14 GMT
#17
I don't think the right way of fixing the mistake is taking the points away from the players who probably read the rulebook and just practice afterwards, this kind of mistake shouldn't be done. And any change should be told to the public but not just change it and not notify anyone and waiting for people to check the rulebook again.
"You don't need a gsl champion, you don't need a esl champion. I feel like I'm just a normal man. I just practice very hard this time, like 15hrs everyday" Oliveira 2023
Drfilip
Profile Joined March 2013
Sweden590 Posts
April 10 2020 06:46 GMT
#18
Thanks, Shaun!

They made mistakes. Not much to change that.

Simple principle: no points if it wasn't communicated before qualifiers.
Consequently, the ST won't get points.
If the players would have been notified, the ST would have gotten points.

Sad situation, but it is reality. I think the principle is good. Even if it is sad, it is the correct call.
Random Platinum EU
SpaWnvERtiGO
Profile Joined November 2016
110 Posts
April 10 2020 08:12 GMT
#19
On April 10 2020 10:00 greyhoundz wrote:
It's unfair that Super Tournament players were not awarded ESL points just because they were not notified beforehand. ST is a Premier Tournament.

God-level Korean titans and foreign players in Korea will work hard and die for it winning the ST. The qualifiers alone are stacked and looks like hell.

They treated ST1 as garbage tournament as if it was just a Wood and Paper League that nobody cares about. Yes, we all know it's a mistake, but a despicable one that caused this injustice.



I think they secretly hate Korean SC.. seriously...
At this point there shouldn't even be a region lock, still coming up with excuses to shit on Koreans..

There isnt ANY good reason why in 2020 the ST gets NO points.

I'm seeing now being in charge of SC2 breeds stupidity..
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
April 10 2020 08:13 GMT
#20
On April 10 2020 05:58 Waxangel wrote:
I don't quite get why Super Tournament isn't getting its points back, though, if ESL is admitting that it SHOULD have awarded points. If you can retroactively take them away, it seems simple to retroactively add them back after realizing the error.

I get that TECHNICALLY not announcing points before an event can affect participation, but PRACTICALLY speaking everyone who played in Super Tournament qualifiers was going to have played regardless of the info.

The law is powerless to help you, not to punish you.
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 11h 1m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 249
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 26488
Sea 14962
Backho 40
Noble 13
Icarus 10
Bale 8
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm128
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1003
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox499
Mew2King87
Other Games
summit1g12729
RuFF_SC263
Trikslyr34
CosmosSc2 32
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2712
BasetradeTV23
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH340
• Light_VIP 69
• practicex 41
• OhrlRock 3
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1140
• Stunt367
Upcoming Events
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
11h 1m
Replay Cast
19h 1m
The PondCast
1d 5h
OSC
1d 8h
WardiTV European League
1d 11h
Replay Cast
1d 19h
Epic.LAN
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
Epic.LAN
3 days
CSO Contender
3 days
[ Show More ]
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Online Event
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Esports World Cup
6 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.