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On January 12 2018 05:35 Argonauta wrote:
meh, If Zerg was strong in Korea in 2017 we would have seen more zergs during that time besides rogue achieving championships or at least reaching the final rounds of the tournament but in reality we only saw one zerg champ in korea in 2017: Rogue and the typical soO second place of the year.
Of the last 5 major korean tournaments (Shangai, ST2, GSL S3, SSL S2, blizzcon), zerg won three, had two second places, and a very close ro4 finsh.
It's safe to say zerg was very strong in korea last year.
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On January 12 2018 06:25 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2018 05:35 Argonauta wrote:
meh, If Zerg was strong in Korea in 2017 we would have seen more zergs during that time besides rogue achieving championships or at least reaching the final rounds of the tournament but in reality we only saw one zerg champ in korea in 2017: Rogue and the typical soO second place of the year. Of the last 5 major korean tournaments (Shangai, ST2, GSL S3, SSL S2, blizzcon), zerg won three, had two second places, and a very close ro4 finsh. It's safe to say zerg was very strong in korea last year.
Rogue won all three of those tournaments. The last time a Zerg that wasn't Rogue won a tournament in Korea was in September 2016.
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On January 12 2018 06:38 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2018 06:25 Fango wrote:On January 12 2018 05:35 Argonauta wrote:
meh, If Zerg was strong in Korea in 2017 we would have seen more zergs during that time besides rogue achieving championships or at least reaching the final rounds of the tournament but in reality we only saw one zerg champ in korea in 2017: Rogue and the typical soO second place of the year. Of the last 5 major korean tournaments (Shangai, ST2, GSL S3, SSL S2, blizzcon), zerg won three, had two second places, and a very close ro4 finsh. It's safe to say zerg was very strong in korea last year. Rogue won all three of those tournaments. The last time a Zerg that wasn't Rogue won a tournament in Korea was in September 2016.
I didn't say Rogue wasn't the best zerg. Just that zerg overall was very strong. Before blizzcon Rogue himself said ZvT was easy and that he didn't need to practice for it
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On January 12 2018 06:45 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2018 06:38 Solar424 wrote:On January 12 2018 06:25 Fango wrote:On January 12 2018 05:35 Argonauta wrote:
meh, If Zerg was strong in Korea in 2017 we would have seen more zergs during that time besides rogue achieving championships or at least reaching the final rounds of the tournament but in reality we only saw one zerg champ in korea in 2017: Rogue and the typical soO second place of the year. Of the last 5 major korean tournaments (Shangai, ST2, GSL S3, SSL S2, blizzcon), zerg won three, had two second places, and a very close ro4 finsh. It's safe to say zerg was very strong in korea last year. Rogue won all three of those tournaments. The last time a Zerg that wasn't Rogue won a tournament in Korea was in September 2016. I didn't say Rogue wasn't the best zerg. Just that zerg overall was very strong. Before blizzcon Rogue himself said ZvT was easy and that he didn't need to practice for it
He would've lost in the semis (the only ZvT he played) if TY didn't fuck up really badly though.
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So was this all just a massive build up to calling Rogue a patch Zerg?
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On January 12 2018 04:49 The_Red_Viper wrote:
People really should read more than just the last line, are you guys serious now?
The last part of an article is a conclusion. The implication is so obvious that it can't not be intentional.
That said, this is the author who openly complained and bashed the TL userbase because they didn't like his last article. He's not exactly the picture of a professional, we shouldn't be surprised.
User was warned for this post
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On January 12 2018 05:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2018 04:58 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 12 2018 04:49 The_Red_Viper wrote:
People really should read more than just the last line, are you guys serious now? And you should learn to read between lines. Show nested quote +On January 12 2018 04:10 Tyrhanius wrote:
Seriously ?
Why can't we report this as "player bashing", i've never seen something more insulting toward a player, even on battle.net where there is no moderation, people blame balance, rage but at least respect progamers.
For 1 year, only 2 zerg performed on korea : soO and Rogue, and Rogue is the best, while in the meantime Byun, Innovation, TY, Gumiho, herO, Stats, Zest performed on the kor scene.
But last post of the OP was "Maru and Innovation, the last savior of the weak terran race", and now : "Rogue the bigpatchzerg".
It's pure whine, rather post this on battle net.
Worst, it's close to public defamation. So you "read between the lines" and came up with this interpretation? Not bad! I don't wanna make this a poster A bashes poster B thread though so i won't bother after this post but yours is the most stupid thing i have seen in a while, gz 
It's all about his personnal view presented as facts, hidden behind some ambiguous text, and at the end he confess what he really wants to tell.
He twitts that as "Having unpopular opinions is fun".
Of course, as you apparently share this view, it's ok...And yeah, if I disagree, my post is the most thing stupid thing...
Your post is exactly like OP post :
Say you don't want to bash me, like he said it's discussion/analysis of the game post, while you insult me at the end, like he finally said Rogue is a patchzerg.
All it matters is what you do at the end, i'm not tricked because you pretend you don't act like you actually do.
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On January 12 2018 06:55 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2018 06:45 Fango wrote:On January 12 2018 06:38 Solar424 wrote:On January 12 2018 06:25 Fango wrote:On January 12 2018 05:35 Argonauta wrote:
meh, If Zerg was strong in Korea in 2017 we would have seen more zergs during that time besides rogue achieving championships or at least reaching the final rounds of the tournament but in reality we only saw one zerg champ in korea in 2017: Rogue and the typical soO second place of the year. Of the last 5 major korean tournaments (Shangai, ST2, GSL S3, SSL S2, blizzcon), zerg won three, had two second places, and a very close ro4 finsh. It's safe to say zerg was very strong in korea last year. Rogue won all three of those tournaments. The last time a Zerg that wasn't Rogue won a tournament in Korea was in September 2016. I didn't say Rogue wasn't the best zerg. Just that zerg overall was very strong. Before blizzcon Rogue himself said ZvT was easy and that he didn't need to practice for it He would've lost in the semis (the only ZvT he played) if TY didn't fuck up really badly though.
He would have lost in the semis of ST2 if Inno didn't as well
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On January 12 2018 07:27 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2018 05:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 12 2018 04:58 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 12 2018 04:49 The_Red_Viper wrote:
People really should read more than just the last line, are you guys serious now? And you should learn to read between lines. On January 12 2018 04:10 Tyrhanius wrote:
Seriously ?
Why can't we report this as "player bashing", i've never seen something more insulting toward a player, even on battle.net where there is no moderation, people blame balance, rage but at least respect progamers.
For 1 year, only 2 zerg performed on korea : soO and Rogue, and Rogue is the best, while in the meantime Byun, Innovation, TY, Gumiho, herO, Stats, Zest performed on the kor scene.
But last post of the OP was "Maru and Innovation, the last savior of the weak terran race", and now : "Rogue the bigpatchzerg".
It's pure whine, rather post this on battle net.
Worst, it's close to public defamation. So you "read between the lines" and came up with this interpretation? Not bad! I don't wanna make this a poster A bashes poster B thread though so i won't bother after this post but yours is the most stupid thing i have seen in a while, gz It's all about his personnal view presented as facts, hidden behind some ambiguous text, and at the end he confess what he really wants to tell. He twitts that as "Having unpopular opinions is fun". Of course, as you apparently share this view, it's ok...And yeah, if I disagree, my post is the most thing stupid thing... Your post is exactly like OP post : Say you don't want to bash me, like he said it's discussion/analysis of the game post, while you insult me at the end, like he finally said Rogue is a patchzerg. All it matters is what you do at the end, i'm not tricked because you pretend you don't act like you actually do.
What?
......
.......What?
First of all, even though I believe Rogue is NOT a patchzerg, I'm capable of recognizing this article's strengths instead of raging. Imagine that, appreciating something that you disagree with. Mindblowing.
Second of all, The_Red_Viper is very clearly in the right here. By extension, so is Mizenhauer.
And most importantly, that last line you wrote: "i'm not tricked because you pretend you don't act like you actually do"
What are you even saying!?
But that's still leagues more intelligent than what you said right before that: "All it matters is what you do at the end."
Hmm, let's test that.
Rogue is a patchzerg.
Rogue is a patchzerg.
Rogue is a patchzerg.
Rogue is a patchzerg.
Rogue is a patchzerg.
Rogue is a patchzerg.
Rogue is the most skilled player to ever touch SC2, a bonjwa by any definition of the word, and the greatest of all time.
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Whether or not Rogue is a patchzerg, I think the comparison to ByuN is unfair. 3 rax reaper is an early game cheese and the mere possibility of it put ByuN ahead from the start of games, even if he didn't use it. Part of that is that it was so hard to scout proxies because maps often had dozens of locations and there was no reasonable way to scout them all. Hydras are a mid-game unit and transitions to them are reasonably scoutable. Yes, their strength impacted the meta and possibly crossed off potential compositions and timings which benefited Rogue even in games that ended before them, but that's not nearly the same.
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Rogue doesn't need to prove shit, he did that by repeating a win and he even toppled that with a Blizzcon win all the whilst dominating the ladder. It might be the biggest peak we've ever seen.
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On January 12 2018 08:13 Boggyb wrote:
Whether or not Rogue is a patchzerg, I think the comparison to ByuN is unfair. 3 rax reaper is an early game cheese and the mere possibility of it put ByuN ahead from the start of games, even if he didn't use it. Part of that is that it was so hard to scout proxies because maps often had dozens of locations and there was no reasonable way to scout them all. Hydras are a mid-game unit and transitions to them are reasonably scoutable. Yes, their strength impacted the meta and possibly crossed off potential compositions and timings which benefited Rogue even in games that ended before them, but that's not nearly the same.
The comparison with ByuN is unfair in the other direction too. To his credit ByuN stood out as being exceptional at 'exploiting' reapers, whereas every Zerg out there 'exploits' hydralisks.
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On January 12 2018 08:18 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2018 08:13 Boggyb wrote:
Whether or not Rogue is a patchzerg, I think the comparison to ByuN is unfair. 3 rax reaper is an early game cheese and the mere possibility of it put ByuN ahead from the start of games, even if he didn't use it. Part of that is that it was so hard to scout proxies because maps often had dozens of locations and there was no reasonable way to scout them all. Hydras are a mid-game unit and transitions to them are reasonably scoutable. Yes, their strength impacted the meta and possibly crossed off potential compositions and timings which benefited Rogue even in games that ended before them, but that's not nearly the same. The comparison with ByuN is unfair in the other direction too. To his credit ByuN stood out as being exceptional at 'exploiting' reapers, whereas every Zerg out there 'exploits' hydralisks.
How many other Zergs were consistently beating the Golden Armada?
edit: It is worth noting that uThermal also used reapers to great success in his IEM championship though obviously the skill level of his competition was much lower.
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I think it's disgusting that you compare someone like Rogue to the greatest micro player of all time. Especially when he won in the highest skilled era, unlike Rogue.
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the funny thing is that if Rogue is a patchzerg that won those tournaments because the zerg race was OP... Where are the other Zergs? Did Dark played a different version of the game? Did solar? soO? Impact? If those 3 couldn't even won a championship during that time.. Are they mere amateurs? Its hard to call him patchzerg when he is the only zerg shining in 2017.
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On January 12 2018 08:41 Phredxor wrote:
I think it's disgusting that you compare someone like Rogue to the greatest micro player of all time. Especially when he won in the highest skilled era, unlike Rogue.
where they compare maru vs rogue?
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Denying that the hydra buff helped Rogue (or any Zerg) is pure idiocy. But I wouldn't go so far as to call him a patchzerg either, though it's fair to say that Rogue received disproportionate benefits from the hydra buff due to his playstyle.
As far as his legacy goes, Rogue will lose to time. The nature of SC2 is such that no player has ever managed to dominate the professional scene for very long. Peaks and slumps are inevitable. Only players with both long careers and sufficient skill can experience multiple peaks and eventually build an enduring legacy.
Rogue is not one of those players. The end of 2017 was his first peak and there simply isn't enough time left to catch up to players with more storied legacies. Of the remaining pros, only Zest and Inno can claim something akin to that and even both of them still have a ways to go.
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wow what a fight ^^
I disagree about one statement "Soo will be regarderded as the best mechanical player of all time" tbh I think people will just think about all these Seconde places when it comes to soO.... and "mechanical" --> it's for INno
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United States33542 Posts
I can't believe Mizenhauer would go to all this effort to obfuscate with complicated Rogue nonsense in order to bash ByuN 
But seriously, even if I don't agree with his overall conclusions, I thought he brought up some interesting points about Rogue, and how we consider past champions in general.
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I'm also confused why people think Parting was great.
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EPT
