EPTI work with Ogaming to continue the project. Soon I would have news to announce
Let's test : "A Eulogy for the Six Pool" ideas - Page 2
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AnossSc2
France37 Posts
I work with Ogaming to continue the project. Soon I would have news to announce | ||
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maitiky
Czech Republic54 Posts
While we can discuss (and test) the difference between 6 workers start and 12 workers start, potential return to 6 worker start will simply not bring in a huge wave of new players. From my point of view, RTS is just not "hot" ("in", "trendy"...) game genre anymore (if it ever was outside of Europe). Sure, SC2 had its big boom way back in 2010 and 2011, but like was already said in comments above - SC2 didn't have any serious competiton on the field of e-sports back then. Nowadays it is a lot different. You said that we should think as a begginer player. Well, as a begginer player I would ask myself: "Hey, what game do my friends/schoolmates/colleagues play, so I can join them and have some fun with them?" The answer would be "League of Legends", "Overwatch", "CS:GO" and of course "Hearthstone". As a begginer player I would go to twitch.tv to watch some popular games, what am I going to find there? Yep, same story - on the front page there will be League of Legends, Overwatch, CS:GO and Hearthstone (if it's not Power Rangers marathon time). My point here is that new players tend to play either a game that their friends play or a game they can watch online. And SC2 simply doesn't fulfill those requirements nowadays. And it's understandable (from a casual gamer's point of view) - why would I lose my time with learning this absurdly difficult strategy game (that non of my friends play) just to get rekt on ladder again and again and again until after maybe a month of grinding it I would start to see some results? I can play LoL with my friends and got carried from them as we play like a team (plus the game itself is telling me what should I buy for my character), or I can start to play Hearthstone which could be done on a phone while I'm having a bath. SC2 is (for nowadays kids and new players) just so hard to learn that it's not appealing anymore. And 6 worker start won't change this since you are just comparing SC2 to SC2 (6 workers vs 12 workers), but the problem is in comparsion of SC2 to any other (now) popular game. Btw, I have three friends that never played SC2 before LotV (and never played SC:BW either) and they were all able to learn basics of SC2 even with 12 worker start (one of them is in Dia, two are high Plats). So I wouldn't say that 12 worker start is so much more difficult for newbies as 6 worker start (while I agree that 6 worker start is easier, but just not THAT MUCH easier). What's really interesting here is the background story for all three of them - it's just the same. They all started to play SC2 because there were friends around them who were already playing it and tell them about the game. Before they played... wait for it... League of Legends (surprise!). Bottom line - I do appreciate any effort to make SC2 better game as I am a big fan of it and I am playing it since WoL beta, and maybe the 6 start would be a positive change for LotV, so I certainly keep my eye on your work, guys. But I sincerely believe that 6 worker start is not the change that would bring SC2 back into spotlights of e-sport. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
On April 28 2017 19:22 maitiky wrote: Sorry for bringing alive 2 weeks old thread, but I've just found it and some ideas came across my mind here: While we can discuss (and test) the difference between 6 workers start and 12 workers start, potential return to 6 worker start will simply not bring in a huge wave of new players. From my point of view, RTS is just not "hot" ("in", "trendy"...) game genre anymore (if it ever was outside of Europe). Sure, SC2 had its big boom way back in 2010 and 2011, but like was already said in comments above - SC2 didn't have any serious competiton on the field of e-sports back then. Nowadays it is a lot different. You said that we should think as a begginer player. Well, as a begginer player I would ask myself: "Hey, what game do my friends/schoolmates/colleagues play, so I can join them and have some fun with them?" The answer would be "League of Legends", "Overwatch", "CS:GO" and of course "Hearthstone". As a begginer player I would go to twitch.tv to watch some popular games, what am I going to find there? Yep, same story - on the front page there will be League of Legends, Overwatch, CS:GO and Hearthstone (if it's not Power Rangers marathon time). My point here is that new players tend to play either a game that their friends play or a game they can watch online. And SC2 simply doesn't fulfill those requirements nowadays. And it's understandable (from a casual gamer's point of view) - why would I lose my time with learning this absurdly difficult strategy game (that non of my friends play) just to get rekt on ladder again and again and again until after maybe a month of grinding it I would start to see some results? I can play LoL with my friends and got carried from them as we play like a team (plus the game itself is telling me what should I buy for my character), or I can start to play Hearthstone which could be done on a phone while I'm having a bath. SC2 is (for nowadays kids and new players) just so hard to learn that it's not appealing anymore. And 6 worker start won't change this since you are just comparing SC2 to SC2 (6 workers vs 12 workers), but the problem is in comparsion of SC2 to any other (now) popular game. Btw, I have three friends that never played SC2 before LotV (and never played SC:BW either) and they were all able to learn basics of SC2 even with 12 worker start (one of them is in Dia, two are high Plats). So I wouldn't say that 12 worker start is so much more difficult for newbies as 6 worker start (while I agree that 6 worker start is easier, but just not THAT MUCH easier). What's really interesting here is the background story for all three of them - it's just the same. They all started to play SC2 because there were friends around them who were already playing it and tell them about the game. Before they played... wait for it... League of Legends (surprise!). Bottom line - I do appreciate any effort to make SC2 better game as I am a big fan of it and I am playing it since WoL beta, and maybe the 6 start would be a positive change for LotV, so I certainly keep my eye on your work, guys. But I sincerely believe that 6 worker start is not the change that would bring SC2 back into spotlights of e-sport. The answer to your whole wall of text is 1 word: DOTA. You can have a game that's really deep and hard to play, really hard and punishing for new players, but still be immensely popular, because it's still FUN. 12 worker start killed alot of strategic options and builds, shoehorning every race into the same few openings. And that's literally anti-fun. SC2 tried too hard to be an esport and forgot to be a fun to play game. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On April 28 2017 22:42 ihatevideogames wrote: The answer to your whole wall of text is 1 word: DOTA. You can have a game that's really deep and hard to play, really hard and punishing for new players, but still be immensely popular, because it's still FUN. 12 worker start killed alot of strategic options and builds, shoehorning every race into the same few openings. And that's literally anti-fun. SC2 tried too hard to be an esport and forgot to be a fun to play game. I don't want to play a moba | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24591 Posts
I can say that I agree that I miss the suspense of all-ins like the six pool but LotV is a game which is far less about hitting one timing than HotS and WoL was, the game is more fluid in how things shape up between early, mid and late game and the amount of workers somehow ties into that. I can sacrifice the fun of early pools for the far better and more fast paced game that the twelve workers give us. | ||
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Penev
28501 Posts
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nonoes
24 Posts
12 worker start killed alot of strategic options and builds More than that it killed all those random insta lose early cheese or economic builds that you couldn't scout early enough to react. 12 workers is better, mineral layout is a different topic | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
I didn't mean to tell you go play it. I meant it as an example that a game can be begginer-unfriendly and still fun and very popular, if it focuses on the people who PLAY instead of the people who WATCH. | ||
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JWD[9]
364 Posts
What a six worker start might do right now, is add a lot more timing options and distract from deeper issues, since games would look more diverse, maybe even diverse enough so noone ever figures out that sc2 might be more fundamentally flawed. Both, Starbow and Heptacraft for me have shown that you can build a more rewarding RTS within the sc2 engine, by fixing unit-interactions and opening up different playstyles by removing the three base soft cap with diminishing returns when more than one worker mines a patch + patches with more minerals on them. | ||
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DrDenim
8 Posts
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On April 29 2017 00:27 DrDenim wrote: I'm confused. How is having more timing sitting around boxing your workers at the start of every game better for new players? Reaper is out at 3 min instead of 5 min, or whatever. How does that make a difference? Sitting waiting doesn't make you better.. It makes the game shorter, not harder. If anything that'll let you practice more games faster. Early game threats influence openers. The existence of a 6 pool influenced everyone's openers, and the entire meta game. With a 12 worker start, there's zero threat for early game pressure. Everyone gets a free natural. But that's what the community wanted, so whatever. | ||
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