I share this author's views in that the lack of a premier western tournament (or a western proleague of sorts) is detrimental to SC2, especially since far fewer players get opportunities to get support. A fanbase that rallies to teams and not just players is also important for sponsorship opportunities. It is well worth a read!
Historically speaking Korea has always had the all important Proleague, an ongoing team league, and the individual leagues (otherwise known as star leagues). Although the star leagues offered more individual money and prestige than Proleague's team emphasis allowed, the individual leagues always played second fiddle to Proleague in terms of important for the team, and sponsorship dollars.
Due to the fact that team leagues are no longer important, we see teams like Dignitas that are unable to field a roster for a best of seven.
There is currently no real incentive for teams to develop the kind of roster needed to compete in a team environment. Shifting money into a team leagues would create an incentive for teams to do this. If Europe and North America had a premiere team league to call their own, one could expect an explosion of growth in terms of roster depth and new talent.
Looking at the success of LCS, DOTA 2, and Counterstrike GO it is clear that audiences are hungry for team oriented competitions. This is supported by the fact that Proleague gets significantly more viewership in Korea than the GSL. A premiere team league has the potential to capitalize on the audiences hunger to see powerful teams collide.
The increased significance of teams plus the stability offered by a team league are clear immediate benefits that would be brought about by having premiere North American and European team leagues. The team leagues would also encourage foreign organizations to take Starcraft more seriously, because the individual stars shine so much brighter than the team from which they hail it can make teams view having a Starcraft squad as a burden as much as an asset. Team leagues can help a team leverage it's Starcraft roster into a financial asset.
I'd love ESL to create their own team league, more or less like GSTL used to be, into their German studio. It would be perfect and most of the best non-Korean teams can participate in an European based league.
Actually, except EG, Root and the Chinese/Taiwanese teams, I can't see any "big" team that can't have players in Europe to play offline on a regular basis.
idno, i feel the team aspect of sc2 drives the need for exposure more than results, leaving us with the current climate where a demuslim is worth more than oz to a team
the more players that are able to secure personal deals, the better in my eyes
On April 13 2014 18:19 nkr wrote: idno, i feel the team aspect of sc2 drives the need for exposure more than results, leaving us with the current climate where a demuslim is worth more than oz to a team
the more players that are able to secure personal deals, the better in my eyes
Personal deals are good for "star" players, maybe, but what for new comers then ?
On April 13 2014 18:19 nkr wrote: idno, i feel the team aspect of sc2 drives the need for exposure more than results, leaving us with the current climate where a demuslim is worth more than oz to a team
the more players that are able to secure personal deals, the better in my eyes
Personal deals are good for "star" players, maybe, but what for new comers then ?
I don't know to be honest, but something is rotten in StarCraft 2. I don't see bad (in comparison) players get the nod over the skilled ones in LoL, Dota2 or CS:GO.
On April 13 2014 18:17 Serimek wrote: I'd love ESL to create their own team league, more or less like GSTL used to be, into their German studio. It would be perfect and most of the best non-Korean teams can participate in an European based league.
Actually, except EG, Root and the Chinese/Taiwanese teams, I can't see any "big" team that can't have players in Europe to play offline on a regular basis.
On April 13 2014 18:17 Serimek wrote: I'd love ESL to create their own team league, more or less like GSTL used to be, into their German studio. It would be perfect and most of the best non-Korean teams can participate in an European based league.
Actually, except EG, Root and the Chinese/Taiwanese teams, I can't see any "big" team that can't have players in Europe to play offline on a regular basis.
On April 13 2014 18:17 Serimek wrote: I'd love ESL to create their own team league, more or less like GSTL used to be, into their German studio. It would be perfect and most of the best non-Korean teams can participate in an European based league.
Actually, except EG, Root and the Chinese/Taiwanese teams, I can't see any "big" team that can't have players in Europe to play offline on a regular basis.
It doesn't seem as though that will continue for SC2. The Euro Series Spring 2014 is already underway for LoL, so its very doubtful there will be one for SC2 anymore.
I can't agree more. Here in Spain we've done a proleague format with 8 teams, and it has had impressive numbers on the stream. In addition to this, I feel it has increased sc2's exposure and fanbase here, revitalizing the scene.
Something bigger from the ESL would definately be good news, although I don't know how would teams adapt to an offline regular season format. ATC is really trying to help develop this kind of aspect of the game, but I would personally love an offline regular season.
On April 13 2014 18:19 nkr wrote: idno, i feel the team aspect of sc2 drives the need for exposure more than results, leaving us with the current climate where a demuslim is worth more than oz to a team
the more players that are able to secure personal deals, the better in my eyes
Personal deals are good for "star" players, maybe, but what for new comers then ?
I don't know to be honest, but something is rotten in StarCraft 2. I don't see bad (in comparison) players get the nod over the skilled ones in LoL, Dota2 or CS:GO.
I could not care less about any of those games but maybe it is because SC is 1v1 not 5v5 individual players stand out much more so personalities have a more important role
I would be nice if teamliquid would host such a tournament. With TSL 5 missing it could fill the spot quite nicely. Even if there would be no prizes, the games would still have a lot of weight and lots of viewers. With the liquid HQ near Take's place, they could hold the finals there.
They need a serious team league that incorporates at least 1 game of 2v2, and with as diverse a team lineup as possible (global teams, not just koreans). I know I personally would find that much more interesting to watch.
would love to see a team league. perhaps throw some 4v4's in there. i think seeing 2 teams with 4 players fight it out in a 4v4 match would attract a lot of views. at least it is something other then 1v1 for a change.
On April 13 2014 21:41 SCguineapig wrote: would love to see a team league. perhaps throw some 4v4's in there. i think seeing 2 teams with 4 players fight it out in a 4v4 match would attract a lot of views. at least it is something other then 1v1 for a change.
Not the kind of team league the OP is referring to.
Offline team leagues will never work outside of Korea, because foreign teams are spread of several continents, while Korean teams are located in the same city.
So, there´s online team-leagues, they´re just not as exciting.
On April 13 2014 18:19 nkr wrote: idno, i feel the team aspect of sc2 drives the need for exposure more than results, leaving us with the current climate where a demuslim is worth more than oz to a team
the more players that are able to secure personal deals, the better in my eyes
Personal deals are good for "star" players, maybe, but what for new comers then ?
I don't know to be honest, but something is rotten in StarCraft 2. I don't see bad (in comparison) players get the nod over the skilled ones in LoL, Dota2 or CS:GO.
There's NA LCS where the entire region can't compete with the others and yet they're still getting paid a ton of money because Riot protects them from international competition.
On April 13 2014 22:21 Daswollvieh wrote: Offline team leagues will never work outside of Korea, because foreign teams are spread of several continents, while Korean teams are located in the same city.
So, there´s online team-leagues, they´re just not as exciting.
They work in every other eSport, they worked in WC3 (ESL's W3CL), so why exactly wouldn't they work in SC2?
I agree -- proleague is by far the most entertaining sc2 tournament right now because team series let you watch several players and a variety of match ups witch is far more interesting then watching two players play out a best of 5/7 in my opinion. I also love that unlike wcs/gsl proleague has a long round-robin phase so not only do you get to see a greater variety of players and teams, but consistent results are rewarded, rather then prepping heavily for one match-up and/or advancing solely because you cheesed the **** out of one or two other guys. Team-leagues also give b-teamers an opportunity to play in televised matches and to play professionally allowing new players to improve and eventually become champions.
The reason a foreign team-league doesn't exist is because of expensive it is to host a competition of that caliber. The only reason proleague gets sufficient fund is because of huge corporate sponsors like SKT and Samsung funding both the teams and the tournament.
On April 13 2014 21:41 SCguineapig wrote: would love to see a team league. perhaps throw some 4v4's in there. i think seeing 2 teams with 4 players fight it out in a 4v4 match would attract a lot of views. at least it is something other then 1v1 for a change.
Not the kind of team league the OP is referring to.
if i am correct (i dont really watch teamleagues) then a teamleague is a series of 1v1's between teams. whenever a player loses he is eliminated and another player from his team takes his place. this goes on until one of the two teams is defeated. what i meant was that it would be awesome go get a few 4v4's in there at the end of every series. it could be that i am totally wrong here and then this post can be ignored.
The Deimos Esports Team League, though played online, is the format you're looking for and features all the best purely NA teams. If we want something like that to grow we need a higher viewership. If more people watch when Season 2 comes around it could pick up more sponsors and who knows. Other than that it's quite difficult to have offline team leagues outside of Korea
On April 14 2014 00:35 Noocta wrote: I'm gonna be honest, I don't like team leagues. I don't watch the Korean scene, and teams in the west give no fucks about teamleagues.
The last time I had fun watching a teamleague was during IPTL days.
Also, having a good roster for teamleague is too expensive for the current ROI Starcraft provide.
Maybe this could tickle your taste buds. It has got some foreign teams, some Korean teams and 2v2's and fresh maps and other cool stuff.
On April 13 2014 22:21 Daswollvieh wrote: Offline team leagues will never work outside of Korea, because foreign teams are spread of several continents, while Korean teams are located in the same city.
So, there´s online team-leagues, they´re just not as exciting.
They work in every other eSport, they worked in WC3 (ESL's W3CL), so why exactly wouldn't they work in SC2?
Well, there have been team leagues like IPTL and ATC, so they are working somewhat. What I´m saying is, I can´t see them growing because:
a) They have to be online, since foreign teams are spread all over the globe, which kills a lot of the team-competition atmosphere. Without team benches and uniforms and high-fiving there´s not much difference to the viewer than watching a random online event.
b) It´s way more efficient to send a couple of players for a weekend-long tournament, than sending an entire team, even if there were such big team competitions.
I see it virtually impossible to do something like Proleague outside of Korea as long as there´s no other esports capitol that holds many relevant teams. I mean, there´s the Taiwanese league, which made it work because, again, it´s one city. Online competition is just not nearly as exciting, it lacks the human element, which is huge in sports.
Man..... I disagree completely with the author in OP's post. There are way too many one hit wonder solutions ever since Starcraft 2's release. A premier team league in NA sounds fantastic and all, but who is gonna set this up? Which organization is going to contribute the massive amount of time and money to setup a PREMIER team league, and where would these dedicated NA teams come from? Apart from EG, Liquid, and Root, we don't nearly have enough dedicated professional SC2 teams, at least not on the level of the Korean proleague teams. Where would these teams come from? With NASL departing from SC2, we have even less manpower and money to make this happen. We have smaller scale team leagues like ATC and Deimos team league, because that is what our current NA scene can support. These smaller leagues are gaining a lot of support and popularity, but that does not mean a PREMIER team league will just magically appear out of thin air.
At the end of the day, anyone can list off a bunch of one hit wonders, but who is going to put in the EFFORT and MONEY to make it happen?
there is one problem though.. korea is a small country and europe and norhtmaerica are continents.. for example if ESL wants to start a teamleague like SPL then ALL players have to live in germany...
I think we need to keep supporting and participating in smaller leagues to help drum up hype for premier team leagues - these may not be perfect but they are worth checking out, for what they try to do: SC2L, TeamStory Cup, Shoutcraft Clan Wars, z33k tournaments, Chobo Team League, SC2CTL, even the Sub Wars night that BaseTradeTV ran a few days ago.
Again, I know they aren't perfect and aren't what the OP was asking for, but they are still worth supporting. Every little bit helps the scene.
i would love a team league, but it seems that far too many use the all-kill format, only ever used in proleague initially as a one-round change of pace, which discourages team depth in favour of relying on one or two players that can run the table. especially if teams utilise koreans for that role.
On April 20 2014 01:45 Rikudou wrote: there is one problem though.. korea is a small country and europe and norhtmaerica are continents.. for example if ESL wants to start a teamleague like SPL then ALL players have to live in germany...
bleh, i couldn't care less if a tournament is live or online.
Maybe the most feasible way of doing this live and personal would be a team tournament instead of a team league? Say the top 32 teams invited for a weekend tournament. Two group stages with the top two going through. Then a single-elimination bracket from the Ro8 onwards.
On April 14 2014 00:42 SmoKim wrote: All the more reason to show ATC our full support.
maybe when their format makes sense and we don't have teams disbanding mid season to admin stuff. *shrug* I can only support so much man and I'm not getting behind something I find bush league.
A western proleague is hugely important for the western scene to survive in sc2. Otherwise what happened to BW will eventually happen in SC2. Imagine proleague games played in studios in the US or Canada. It would be so awesome to attend those live and would help draw in an audience. And I'm sure TL writers would do a great job of hyping the games.
Way too late for that. Not enough steam to do anything like that and the draw will still be the same. Sure you would get some people out to a studio like what ESL but I don't see it getting traction. Maybe try it with another title (not talking about Legacy).
On April 22 2014 03:55 StarStruck wrote: Way too late for that. Not enough steam to do anything like that and the draw will still be the same. Sure you would get some people out to a studio like what ESL but I don't see it getting traction. Maybe try it with another title (not talking about Legacy).
Yeah, in 2011 when the hype was big, that was the time to get a proleague rolling. I agree with you the steam is a lot lower. That's why it was so angering when ppl made threads about too much starcraft and tournaments at once. At least at that time, SC2 had the spotlight and the potential to do some serious work for the eSports scene.
On April 22 2014 03:53 BisuDagger wrote: A western proleague is hugely important for the western scene to survive in sc2. Otherwise what happened to BW will eventually happen in SC2. Imagine proleague games played in studios in the US or Canada. It would be so awesome to attend those live and would help draw in an audience. And I'm sure TL writers would do a great job of hyping the games.
Yeah but for reasons already discussed in this thread, an offline team league like Proleague simply cannot happen in the Western scene due to travel limitations. The best that's possible is a format similar to ATC where most of the league is online but the playoffs or finals take place offline.
I really wanted to get into ATC this season, and watched most of Week 1 and some of Week 2 and got to see... constant all-kills or semi-all-kills by a single Korean (INnoVation, ForGG, StarDust, etc). In GSTL, the all-kill format worked because the league was balanced and in most matches an all-kill or semi-all-kill would be an exciting achievement. In ATC, it just makes the matches more predictable.
All-kill is simply an inappropriate format for a team league dominated by one or two Korean aces that most teams have. You know that we're going to see Acer constantly send out MMA and INnoVation, Liquid constantly send out TaeJa and HerO, Jaedong for EG, jjakji and StarDust for mYi, San and Leenock for Yoe, etc, etc. And teams without top Korean aces like NRS, Empire/Fnatic, coL/Dig or now Mouz simply have no shot whatsoever except against each other.
TL;DR: ATC is as close as we're going to get to a Western Proleague ever, but IMO it really needs to change its format from all-kill to pre-picked matchups like in Proleague.
On April 22 2014 03:55 StarStruck wrote: Way too late for that. Not enough steam to do anything like that and the draw will still be the same. Sure you would get some people out to a studio like what ESL but I don't see it getting traction. Maybe try it with another title (not talking about Legacy).
Yeah, in 2011 when the hype was big, that was the time to get a proleague rolling. I agree with you the steam is a lot lower. That's why it was so angering when ppl made threads about too much starcraft and tournaments at once. At least at that time, SC2 had the spotlight and the potential to do some serious work for the eSports scene.
hm, i typed too fast should be ''what ESL have'' and I agree. Maybe MLG could have provided an angle towards something like that in NA I still think you would have a hard time keeping the viewers happy though and there would still be market segmentation. Goes back to the idea of a games having a short shelf life.
On April 22 2014 03:53 BisuDagger wrote: A western proleague is hugely important for the western scene to survive in sc2. Otherwise what happened to BW will eventually happen in SC2. Imagine proleague games played in studios in the US or Canada. It would be so awesome to attend those live and would help draw in an audience. And I'm sure TL writers would do a great job of hyping the games.
Yeah but for reasons already discussed in this thread, an offline team league like Proleague simply cannot happen in the Western scene due to travel limitations. The best that's possible is a format similar to ATC where most of the league is online but the playoffs or finals take place offline.
I really wanted to get into ATC this season, and watched most of Week 1 and some of Week 2 and got to see... constant all-kills or semi-all-kills by a single Korean (INnoVation, ForGG, StarDust, etc). In GSTL, the all-kill format worked because the league was balanced and in most matches an all-kill or semi-all-kill would be an exciting achievement. In ATC, it just makes the matches more predictable.
All-kill is simply an inappropriate format for a team league dominated by one or two Korean aces that most teams have. You know that we're going to see Acer constantly send out MMA and INnoVation, Liquid constantly send out TaeJa and HerO, Jaedong for EG, jjakji and StarDust for mYi, San and Leenock for Yoe, etc, etc. And teams without top Korean aces like NRS, Empire/Fnatic, coL/Dig or now Mouz simply have no shot whatsoever except against each other.
TL;DR: ATC is as close as we're going to get to a Western Proleague ever, but IMO it really needs to change its format from all-kill to pre-picked matchups like in Proleague.
Having a league centered around a Winners League/All-Kill format is not the greatest idea. It feels like I'm just repeating myself so I'll kindly stop.
to be honest i think team leagues are pretty boring in rts games. ATC is a cool event cause it feels pretty relaxed. In Team Leagues people seem to prepare long time before their match, killing alot of excitement for me. But this is just my personal taste
If Proleague struggles to maintain relevancy in Korea, I can't imagine how difficult it would be for the global scene to start restructuring.
The writer is definitely on the money, far too many people in esports enjoy team oriented game play. That cannot be ignored. But with organizations like NASL or OGN leaving SC2, and the popularity of our game dwindling is it even feasible to create team oriented tournaments that are just as prestigious and recognized as the current individual leagues?
I feel like if it hasn't taken off already on its own that it won't even if you try to force it through different avenues such as this. Seeing how someone already mentioned ATC and ATC is really honestly not that big of an event (viewership wise) then I don't see this honestly changing anything.
One thing I have noticed about starcraft 2 is that even when people leave it for another game most come back and atleast play everyonce in awhile there is just huge streams of people that are trying out the MOBA s since the dawn of LoL and seem to like the casualness of the game and the non-try hard aspect yet still contributing to those that due feeling. Because of the platform SC2 is we will never see that aspect come to the fullest extent.
I am all for a teamleague because I Love SC2 but I don't think it will change much
EPT
