EPTLOL and Dota do not have big stream numbers because of heroes or easy/good spectator entry value but because of huge install base.
Khaldor's thoughts about the future of RTS - Page 8
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
LOL and Dota do not have big stream numbers because of heroes or easy/good spectator entry value but because of huge install base. | ||
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rudimentalfeelthelov
Finland268 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
If the game were simply more back and forth, if the series between Innovation and DRG were absolutely typical of how games across all MUs in SC2 play out, I think SC2 would be doing significantly better than it is for viewership. The problem is Protoss isn't capable of trading endlessly the way Zerg and Terran bio are, so any MU that includes Protoss is made up heavily of all-ins, which aren't exciting unless the all-in is held/almost held after a very close struggle, and passive deathball play, which is inherently unexciting. It's basically a macro army. Even when it engages, all you can really get excited about is... Forcefields? Storms? Time Warp? MOBAs have their annoying AOE spells too, but there, there's still a lot of unpredictability because there are plenty of other heroes who haven't been trapped in the AOE who can do something about it. What can an army do against Time Warp? It's just there, sucking excitement out of the game by preventing players from moving the units as quickly as they're capable of moving them. (And Zerg can play either like Terran or like Protoss, it really depends on the MU and meta.) On top of that, there are a lot of niche/useless units. For instance, as a TvZ bio Terran, once you get Medivacs you have absolutely nothing to add to your composition. You're done. It's been true since the day WOL came out, it's still true 4 years later, and it's ridiculous. It means that after ten games of Inno vs. DRG, we're getting kind of tired of seeing the same units be used in the same way, because nothing except MMMMH is viable. In MOBA games, you have 5 heroes per team which will have different dynamics depending on exactly which heroes are chosen, and also depending on which heroes are chosen for the enemy team. The permutations are pretty endless as far as eye candy goes. MOBAs are absolutely not my cup of tea, but I can imagine it's pretty easy to get excited when you look up one team's roster and you look up the other team's roster, and you start to imagine how this fight is going to play out. So with all that said, I think that SC2 is... uniquely challenged, and not representative of the entire genre. I think that SC2 could have been made a lot more viewer friendly, without resorting to adding heroes specifically. | ||
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Paperplane
Netherlands1823 Posts
Obviously more players means more viewers and I've been thinking about how they could make starcraft more accessible to new players but I don't really know a way without potentially ruining the game If you look at them both from a newbie's perspective starcraft is just too abrupt. As a newbie starcraft player you don't scout a whole lot, you're more focused on building your base and units. Then after five/ten minutes the other guy suddenly shows up out of nowhere, kills your units in a couple seconds and the game is over. It feels like the game's over before you ever got to play. In RTS games your opponent's hidden in the fog of war a lot but in dota you lane against your opponent and you can see him most of the time so it feels more like a back-and-forth struggle. I think that if they make your opponent more visible in LoTV without changing the scouting/ hiding your build part too much for skilled players they could win some casual players back. That seems very hard to accomplish though. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
As a viewer, when you watch a pro LoL player last hit and trade in lane, most of the time you go "hey, that looks like something I could do myself". Even though in reality if you laned vs a pro you'd get crushed. In sc2 it's very clear when you watch a pro player... there's very little you can actually do that even compares with what you see on stream. | ||
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Serendipityx
United States595 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On February 16 2014 20:20 ChaosTriggeR wrote: I don't think it has to do with flashy visuals but mobas just have a bigger player base. Mobas are way funner to get into especially since you can play with up to 4 of your friends in a matchmade game so theres the social experience there whereas in starcraft you don't really have that. I mean yes there are team games but they aren't all that fun least in my opinion compared to playing a game of league with your friends. If we assume about the same % of the player base is interested in the esports side of the game then obviously league and dota will be more popular. If all it comes down to is teamplay and playerbase, why did WoW arenas crash and burn as an esport? WoW still has crazy huge subscription numbers, there's everything from 2v2 to 5v5. There has to be a lot more to it than that. | ||
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Daray
6006 Posts
On February 16 2014 19:21 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote: I don't think the problem with starcraft is that it is too hard for casual players to get into. I had only FPS experience before starting to play SC2 and I finished my first season in platinum, masters three seasons later. Than I stopped playing SC2 and started playing DotA. The truth is that SC2 is just not as fun to play due to macro aspect being pretty boring and due to repetitiveness. In MOBAs you play around with hundreds of heroes with hundreds of different items. Every game is somehow different. In SC2 you have 3 races with each one having a few units and only a handful of builds that won't get you behind from the start in higher level. I actually enjoyed SC2s arcade way more than the game itself and arcade was only reason why I kept playing for few seasons. There are some sick games up there. I'm in the same boat. I was diamond the couple of first seasons and pretty much stopped playing after that. SC2 was not fun for me, it was mentally taxing and winning a game didn't really give any satisfaction. The fact that you pretty much had to follow certain builds every game or you'd get crushed was a let down for me since in WC3 you could do some funny shit and still come on top because of good micro and decision making. It just felt that there was very little room for improvisation and in a way i just felt i couldn't express myself in the game. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On February 16 2014 20:34 Daray wrote: I'm in the same boat. I was diamond the couple of first seasons and pretty much stopped playing after that. SC2 was not fun for me, it was mentally taxing and winning a game didn't really give any satisfaction. The fact that you pretty much had to follow certain builds every game or you'd get crushed was a let down for me since in WC3 you could do some funny shit and still come on top because of good micro and decision making. It just felt that there was very little room for improvisation and in a way i just felt i couldn't express myself in the game. So you can say that you want or wanted more a Warcraft game rather then a Starcraft. | ||
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zanga
659 Posts
On February 15 2014 23:44 BriMikon wrote: Khaldor just likes to talk. <---- User was warned for this post | ||
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Fash1sT
Ukraine10 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On February 16 2014 05:23 KUNGJAH wrote: are you serious? find me a 15yo kid who DOESENT think those movies are awesome  edit: ok maybe not conan but come on the first predator movie and second alien are like the peak of my child hood Really. Try it. I've been watching movies like that with friends a few years from now with one of my friend beeing just 5years younger than me and well... he did not like any of the old movies we watched. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On February 16 2014 21:18 FFW_Rude wrote: Really. Try it. I've been watching movies like that with friends a few years from now with one of my friend being just 5years younger than me and well... he did not like any of the old movies we watched. Well, it not about old vs new but about the level of understanding. Some old movies (or music) are considered classics not because of nostalgia but because they are good. It takes a little bit of maturity to understand character development, quality dialog writing, plot, cinematography, social commentaries, etc. Kids and simpletons don't get this things and gravitate to the flashy and simple, like Transformers or boy bands and biebers. | ||
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DwmC_Foefen
Belgium2186 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On February 16 2014 19:14 Khaldor wrote: The concept is not heroes, the concept is Micro vs. Macro. With a hero-based game Micro will be the dominating factor. To make a player micro intensively you must make the individual unit important enough for him to be willing to spend the time to do it. The more valuable the unit the more willing he is. A hero unit puts that principle to an extreme, that's why I used it in all the examples. I think the success of Sc3 as an esport doesn't really rely on whether they add heroes into the game or not, but simply on whether they add more of the interesting moments into the game (cool micro), which is more of a design issue IMO. Then ofc, they will probably also have to further increase the easiness of the macro part to reduce the entry barriers. At last, ofc a better functioning arcade and F2P are also important ingredients in establishing a large player base. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On February 16 2014 21:31 DwmC_Foefen wrote: I stopped following SC when the expansion was released. Stuff just went downhill really fast, got boring, etc. And a lot of people would agree with me. Plus, I think dota "stole" a lot of SC players. Myself and most of my friends started playing dota. More fun game anyway. How do you know sc2 got boring at the expansion release if you stop watching from there? | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
RTS games tend to settle on a particular set of units and/or strategies which are viable for each MU. Sure, there's a huge amount of variation in subtle timings and a vast depth of skill in that, but to a casual observer it's just MMM running into supported gateway over and over. The mobas have the advantage of having a million different heroes. Even if many of those heroes are never seen in competitive play, the draft system still creates changes from game to game that are immediately apparent, even if you know nothing about what's going on. | ||
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ColtCommando
United States51 Posts
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Ctone23
United States1841 Posts
LOL, DOTA, SC2, though not equal market shares, provide self-sustainable products. Most developers are forced to churn a game out each year, spend millions through advertising, and often those games experience a steep decline curve. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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