Energy Enabling "Mech" Play - Page 2

On January 06 2014 17:19 architecture wrote:
In SC2, most of the core mech units are NOT directly more efficient, since it would make bio too strong.

On January 06 2014 21:21 Lyyna wrote:

You can also add that in BW, Mech had the goliath, which was a really good anti-air unit also doing ok on the ground, and could be massed relatively easily. In Sc2, we have the thor, who his now okay-ish anti-air attack, but terrible mobility/production

On January 06 2014 21:46 Paragleiber wrote:


Huh? Why would it make bio stronger if mech units were more efficient?

On January 06 2014 22:15 Destructicon wrote:


This is the reason why I have been and always will be against a mech buff in SC2 until the units get a redesign of some sort. I know full well that a viable mech will be the polar opposite of BW mech. It won't be positional, tactical and strategic, it will be turtle until deathball then roll out, exactly like BL Infestor.

If you want mech to be viable then tanks need to be stronger on their own. They should deal more flat out damage but have overkill, that way you can't just a-move them across the map and then siege up, you'd need to constantly be positioning and repositioning them to maximize firepower and minimize vulnerability. That way, even when they reach critical mass they still need to be microed, and they are actually stronger early game when you need them to be strong to hold some positions.

On January 06 2014 17:19 architecture wrote:
The absence of asymmetric army power and different economies in SC2 has led some to believe that true "mech" play cannot exist. However, the game between Reality and Hydra reveals that not only can army power CAN vastly differ, but also that economies can differ in banking power. This sort of turtling mech/air game is old news, but I want to frame it in the context of how this is SC2 "mech".

BW mech had two properties: higher power/food and lower mining rate. The lower mining rate compensated for the power of the army, and led to a slow but steady accumulation of a stronger army. In SC2, most of the core mech units are NOT directly more efficient, since it would make bio too strong. So in SC2, accumulating them does not directly lead to a superior army.

But there is something that can be accumulated: and that's energy. Energy units, especially BC/Raven, make it so that an army that has accumulated a lot of energy is far stronger than an energyless army. The weakness of this army is of course time, position, and economy. Without proper positioning, this army cannot accumulate enough energy, and without enough energy, this army does not trade efficiently enough to overcome the larger bank of the opponent.

On Star Station, this style is viable because Terran can sprawl across 4-5 bases while only defending 2 points of attack. With such strong positions, Terran can buy the time to accumulate enough energy to overcome multiple banks worth of armies. There is potential for this style to be engaging, but as of right now, there are some huge pitfalls:

1. 3 bases is not enough for terran mech. Many maps are designed so only 3 bases can easily be protected. But core mech units are not versatile enough to defend more than a few points. It can be OK though if mech is not viable on all maps.

2. Since it's not always viable, the gameflow is not very well designed. Half the game is spent turtling with inefficient units trying to control 4-5 bases. The next 20 minutes is spent accumulating energy on efficient units and drying up the rest of the resources on the map. Unfortunately these 45m games would probably hurt the viewership.

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Mech in this general sense already exists. Certainly the constraints of the game restrict the fluidity and viability of the gameplay. But looking forward into LotV, it is hard to imagine that there is much more to add to the basic 3 base gameplay we have seen for the last 4 years. But, there may be more room to streamline and improve on mech.

On January 06 2014 20:41 Hider wrote:


Im not sure there is any "simple" way too buff harass without breaking the game in some other way. Further, harass buffs only "works" temporarily untill the opponent adjusts. The reason for that its just a matter of strategy/tactics to position your units correctly in order to minimize the damage taken from harass if there is no real army threat from the mech'ing opponent.

On January 06 2014 20:41 Hider wrote:For instance in BW, the protoss always had to fear that the terran would attack you. Against an attack it was a neccesity that you had your main army out on the map as you needed to delay the Siege Tank pressure untill Carriers/Arbiters were up.
But this actually meant that the protoss also were exposed to Vulture harass/dropships if the terran didn't decide to make a timing attack.
So just the threat of an actual timing-attack opened up the opporunty for harass-based play.

On January 06 2014 20:41 Hider wrote:If we look at mech-harass in TvZ and TvP in Sc2, it is so easily prevented by static defense/warp-tech that it really isn't viable.
In TvP BW, Vultures dealt full damage to shileds which meant they could take down cannons by them selves and there were no warp-tech. That's a gigantic difference relative to Sc2 (which also has blink stalkers).

I spent countless hours thinking about how to fix these issues in the next expansion pack (cus you can't make simple patches to fix it), and alot alot of changes are needed.

On January 06 2014 19:22 BigFan wrote:

well that but on their own, they can only be used for x tasks as well. I usually go templars in BW PvZ and if I don't have as much as a single unit with them, I usually can't save any of them. In SCII, if I have infestors for ex, I can usually FG then lay down ITs for defense to escape. I guess my point is that SCII casters have several useful spells so massing a casters is better than it was in BW(much much easier to cast as well).

On January 06 2014 22:26 Sapphire.lux wrote:

The threat of harass in TvP i think is still there, with Hellion runbys and Hellion drops. What is lacking is the threat of attack and that makes defending harass easy. Why don't Protoss fear attack? Because Siege Tanks are worthless units that need to be supported by half the tech tree just to function.

Let's take Banshee harass. With good control and a bit of luck you can do some dmg. It doesn't have to be huge. In the latest patch, we got combined upgrades. This means that now the Banshees you use to harass can be used for a fallowing push and be that much stronger then they were before. It's not the typical harass unit that is judged by how much dmg it did and that's it, but it's a reliable combat unit that can, before the attack, also do some harass. I can see more buffs to the unit giving how easy detection has become in HOTS.

It's not the typical harass unit that is judged by how much dmg it did and that's it, but it's a reliable combat unit that can, before the attack, also do some harass.

The threat of harass in TvP i think is still there, with Hellion runbys and Hellion drops. What is lacking is the threat of attack and that makes defending harass easy. Why don't Protoss fear attack? Because Siege Tanks are worthless units that need to be supported by half the tech tree just to function.

Blizzard will never replicate BW in such detail, so looking at just how things worked back then won't solve anything. We have to look at WHY it worked and come up with solutions based on the tools already present in SC2. For example, something like an upgrade that gives tanks "mini EMPs" might solve the total dependency on Ghosts that is present right now and unlock the turtle fest necessary to play mech.

Overgeneralization, Swarmhosts/mass spores/corruptors/few vipers would destroy an infinite amount of ravens/BC.

On January 06 2014 23:41 Usernameffs wrote:
The simple and biggest reason why mech dosent exist in tvp is that immortals a moves mech.

BW mech would also have been super lame (regardless of superior econ) if Vultures costed 100 minerals (instead of 75 mins).

If i recall speedvultures are the fastest unit in the game ?

On January 06 2014 23:57 JustPassingBy wrote:


I don't know, if immortal / charge zealots walk into a fortified position of tank / blue flame hellbat I still think they will be obliterated easily even without the use of EMP. The problem is that unlike vultures and their mines, hellbats cannot cover a large amount of space. They are also slower to come to support should you be attacked out of position.

On January 06 2014 23:27 FFW_Rude wrote:
To add to this. Vultures were also FAST AS FUCK with the upgrade, making the runbys for a kind of unmobile army so powerfull. That's another big difference. If i recall speedvultures are the fastest unit in the game ?