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On December 15 2013 22:40 pure.Wasted wrote:
I don't understand how this is even debateable. Players need to be rewarded more for having godly macro and godly micro. Build order wins are fun if they happen one game out of a BO5. Not every single fucking game, because that's all P really has to fall back on.
You can have good macro or you have to cut a few corners. But then you are not safe anymore. Because others will cut corners you have to do it as well. That leads to metagame-weaknesses which can be abused.
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Bomber sure doesn't look good vs P on his stream right now. But he doesn't do the most serious of builds either.
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On December 15 2013 22:54 ZenithM wrote:
Bomber sure doesn't look good vs P on his stream right now. But he doesn't do the most serious of builds either.
If I was facing Protoss 90% of the time on ladder, I'd start doing stupid builds too. Can't imagine how much he's hating Toss now
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On December 15 2013 22:47 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 22:40 pure.Wasted wrote:
Mid-tier Korean Zergs will not drop games to foreign Terran pros. We're not talking about Terran GM ladder scrubs -- that those guys get annihilated goes without saying. And this is how it should be.
Bomber's record vs. P on ladder, when not fighting Dear or Rain, should be 99%. Like no matter what. He should just destroy. Maybe if he goes 4 CC before Rax the odds can be 50-50.
I don't understand how this is even debateable. Players need to be rewarded more for having godly macro and godly micro. Build order wins are fun if they happen one game out of a BO5. Not every single fucking game, because that's all P really has to fall back on.
Rain and First are like the only two Protoss I consistently enjoy watching (when they're not PvPing that is). God I hate BO wins/losses so much. Can you tell? Can you tell I hate them a lot? Because I do. That's more of a problem with the game/ladder than with balance IMO. You can't say that cause Bomber on ladder is fucking world destroying WCS Season 2 winner Bomber, cause he really is not.
I am for sure 100% talking about game design and not balance.
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I love Bomber's TvZ, but since he started streaming, I have seen only 2 TvZ and like 12 TvP :o
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On December 15 2013 23:03 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 22:47 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 22:40 pure.Wasted wrote:
Mid-tier Korean Zergs will not drop games to foreign Terran pros. We're not talking about Terran GM ladder scrubs -- that those guys get annihilated goes without saying. And this is how it should be.
Bomber's record vs. P on ladder, when not fighting Dear or Rain, should be 99%. Like no matter what. He should just destroy. Maybe if he goes 4 CC before Rax the odds can be 50-50.
I don't understand how this is even debateable. Players need to be rewarded more for having godly macro and godly micro. Build order wins are fun if they happen one game out of a BO5. Not every single fucking game, because that's all P really has to fall back on.
Rain and First are like the only two Protoss I consistently enjoy watching (when they're not PvPing that is). God I hate BO wins/losses so much. Can you tell? Can you tell I hate them a lot? Because I do. That's more of a problem with the game/ladder than with balance IMO. You can't say that cause Bomber on ladder is fucking world destroying WCS Season 2 winner Bomber, cause he really is not. I am for sure 100% talking about game design and not balance.
It's not really easy to tell a game design problem from a balance problem tbh. You could modify a few numbers on units and reach a state of the game that seems well balanced and well designed, and then change a core mechanics and get a completely imbalanced game. You then tweak some numbers again to get the right balance, only to figure out that that game design change was a shitty one after all.
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On December 15 2013 23:03 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 22:47 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 22:40 pure.Wasted wrote:
Mid-tier Korean Zergs will not drop games to foreign Terran pros. We're not talking about Terran GM ladder scrubs -- that those guys get annihilated goes without saying. And this is how it should be.
Bomber's record vs. P on ladder, when not fighting Dear or Rain, should be 99%. Like no matter what. He should just destroy. Maybe if he goes 4 CC before Rax the odds can be 50-50.
I don't understand how this is even debateable. Players need to be rewarded more for having godly macro and godly micro. Build order wins are fun if they happen one game out of a BO5. Not every single fucking game, because that's all P really has to fall back on.
Rain and First are like the only two Protoss I consistently enjoy watching (when they're not PvPing that is). God I hate BO wins/losses so much. Can you tell? Can you tell I hate them a lot? Because I do. That's more of a problem with the game/ladder than with balance IMO. You can't say that cause Bomber on ladder is fucking world destroying WCS Season 2 winner Bomber, cause he really is not. I am for sure 100% talking about game design and not balance.
I 100% agree. It's just game-design vs balance is a weird topic like ^ said. If someone is "better", they should always win. It's just not that simple like BW where someone that has better mechanics usually won out in the end.
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On December 15 2013 22:19 Qwerty85 wrote:
Not only they cheese and all in so much but they are also so BM.. Bomber reported two protoss players today on his stream. It really leaves a bitter taste when GM players play and act like that.
That's not exclusive to Protoss. There's tons of people of every race that act like dicks on ladder. I see tons of Terrans bm on streams too, even against players who don't all-in for TvP like Nony.
This isn't a race specific thing, but I have noticed that people have become much more rude or bm on ladder, both in my personal experiences and from what I see on stream. A lot of people seem to have changed their mindsets from improving to whining about other races and blaming their losses on everyone but themselves. There always has been people like this but it seems like this type of mindset has become more prominent. I can't help but think this is related to the rise in popularity of streamers like Avilo, Destiny and MaximusBlack, who all display this incredibly negative mindset. Destiny (I like his stream outside of when he is complaining) seems to end a fair number of his losses, especially against Protoss, with some passive-aggressive statement about the race he is facing rather than gg. MaximusBlack used to be fine but now he complains constantly when his proxy oracle, cannon rush, or warpgate all-in doesn't work. Avilo is the same as always, just with more viewers since he got featured.
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Yes, the poison is quite rancid right now. Even TL appears to be going through one of its periodic bad patches.
I really only watch the Chill Toss's stream. No other Toss regularly streaming worth watching, anyway.
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Lol, "because there is too much PVP"…. what a cop out. No respect for this dude.
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On December 16 2013 04:11 JSK wrote:
Lol, "because there is too much PVP"…. what a cop out. No respect for this dude.
Weather you believe his reason or not, it is true that high master/GM is filled with protoss. Just watch how many TvP Bomber played today on his stream.
And I heard from a lot of players that they hate PvP.
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Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
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On December 16 2013 04:11 JSK wrote:
Lol, "because there is too much PVP"…. what a cop out. No respect for this dude.
Did you miss this post from above?
50% in a 3 race game is a lot of Protoss.
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On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote:
Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
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On December 16 2013 05:33 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote:
Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines. Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
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On December 16 2013 02:29 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 22:19 Qwerty85 wrote:
Not only they cheese and all in so much but they are also so BM.. Bomber reported two protoss players today on his stream. It really leaves a bitter taste when GM players play and act like that.
That's not exclusive to Protoss. There's tons of people of every race that act like dicks on ladder. I see tons of Terrans bm on streams too, even against players who don't all-in for TvP like Nony. This isn't a race specific thing, but I have noticed that people have become much more rude or bm on ladder, both in my personal experiences and from what I see on stream. A lot of people seem to have changed their mindsets from improving to whining about other races and blaming their losses on everyone but themselves. There always has been people like this but it seems like this type of mindset has become more prominent. I can't help but think this is related to the rise in popularity of streamers like Avilo, Destiny and MaximusBlack, who all display this incredibly negative mindset. Destiny (I like his stream outside of when he is complaining) seems to end a fair number of his losses, especially against Protoss, with some passive-aggressive statement about the race he is facing rather than gg. MaximusBlack used to be fine but now he complains constantly when his proxy oracle, cannon rush, or warpgate all-in doesn't work. Avilo is the same as always, just with more viewers since he got featured.
The mindset changing it not a fluke, it speaks to the backlash in the last patch and the general design of one race, mainly Protoss. It's a little frustrating when you can completely catch a Protoss off-gaurd (Marine drop, WM, Banshee etc) and all they have to do is right click on their Nexus. Balance discussion aside, you speak about streamers who have negative attitudes towards the game. I don't watch Maximus or Destiny but I do watch Avilo. Out of all three Avilo has the most experience: He is consistently GM (unlike Maximus) and never quit the game like Destiny. All I will say is his TvT is nearly 70%; TvZ about 60%; TvP in the 30% range. If anyone knows he is a marco player, generally mech and a turtle GoOdy-like style. He is not one to 2-base and bring all his scvs, which is I feel most Terran's are doing these days to win versus P. I think the statistics should tell you something about the general frustration and/or changing mindset of most Terran's in the game. I know Zerg have their complaints too, but I am not experienced with that race enough to comment aside from the PvZ I see on streams. I feel like I am making a somewhat unbiased statement after making GM 5x in WoL then switch to Terran in HOTS with less success than my previous race (toss). I enjoy playing Terran more b/c i find it more challenging but it's pretty sad there are very little opener options in TvP which is making the matchup very stale and not fun at all.
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On December 16 2013 05:37 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 05:33 blade55555 wrote:On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote:
Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines. Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf. Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
God I hate players like that. Saying the occasional bm thing when losing is fine, but to win and do it and to keep doing it all game is pathetic. Especially to a player like bomber who if pvt were in better shape would smash him everytime.
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Damn, that was a short Protoss journey. More like a trip to the shop.
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EPT
