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On December 06 2013 17:14 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 10:55 Cheren wrote:On December 06 2013 10:43 Bagi wrote:On December 06 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote:
I wonder if Scarlett now is better than Stephano in terms of peak skill. Pretty hard to compare since players have gotten better but Stephano was at least better relative to the competition as he actually won major tournaments. Yeah Stephano was one of the best Zergs in the world, Scarlett is one of the best at ZvT, and "only" the best foreign zerg in the other two matchups. Scarlett now would probably beat 2011 Stephano if time travel were possible. Yes but towards the back end of his high point it was patch-zerg time and although Stephano wasnt one the reality that BL-Infestor was coming always put the clock on Protoss/non-Korean terrans playing him, causing them to play in a much different way than they play now. He seemed pretty so-so in HOTS but then perhaps his spirit was broken by being in Korea. At the end of the day though Stephano has tournament wins and Scarlett doesnt.
The patch zerg time was the moment where his results started declining actually due to the amount of Zergs showing up in tournaments and his bad ZvZ (he was pretty sour about it, losing to complete no names). In HOTS he made it to the WCS EU finals and no foreigner has done better until now.
I think Scarlett is better than Stephano but she doesn't have the creativity Stephano had in his prime (maybe because the game has been figured out).
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 06 2013 18:27 boxerfred wrote:I think so too. But didn't she go like 2-0 2-0 in some GSL style group stage? I might be wrong though.
She went 2-0 against Maru at the WCS Season 2 Finals.
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On December 06 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote:
I wonder if Scarlett now is better than Stephano in terms of peak skill.
People often confuse more accomplished with more skilled. Stephano is definitely the more accomplished of them given his tournament wins, in terms of raw skill, Scarlett is ahead by quite a bit.
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On December 06 2013 19:12 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote:
I wonder if Scarlett now is better than Stephano in terms of peak skill. People often confuse more accomplished with more skilled. Stephano is definitely the more accomplished of them given his tournament wins, in terms of raw skill, Scarlett is ahead by quite a bit.
Everyone is quite a bit ahead of everyone from two years ago. The top few players in the world currently are a million times better in raw skill than MVP was during his reign, but that doesn't detract from his achievements.
(I'm agreeing with you, just adding my thoughts)
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On December 06 2013 10:52 Ouija wrote:
Scarlett would crush Naniwa, I wish that fool was attending the tourney to watch it happen live! Naniwa has been knocked out of the past few major tournaments he has participated in by zerg opponents.
I wish Scarlett the best of luck, but if jaedong/stardust advance out of group B I think she will have a very tough time advancing past the ro8.
He got eliminated by Soulkey at Blizzcon (Yes, he made it to Blizzcon, unlike every other foreigner including Scarlett) and by Life at IEM and DH(at least in the WB). At IEM he made it into the finals, unlike Scarlett, who never made a finals in her entire career. Getting eliminated by the two best zergs in the world and knocking out Hyun twice and Leenock on the way to that does not make you crushable that easy by every zerg.
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On December 06 2013 20:03 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 10:52 Ouija wrote:
Scarlett would crush Naniwa, I wish that fool was attending the tourney to watch it happen live! Naniwa has been knocked out of the past few major tournaments he has participated in by zerg opponents.
I wish Scarlett the best of luck, but if jaedong/stardust advance out of group B I think she will have a very tough time advancing past the ro8. He got eliminated by Soulkey at Blizzcon (Yes, he made it to Blizzcon, unlike every other foreigner including Scarlett) and by Life at IEM and DH(at least in the WB). At IEM he made it into the finals, unlike Scarlett, who never made a finals in her entire career. Getting eliminated by the two best zergs in the world and knocking out Hyun twice and Leenock on the way to that does not make you crushable that easy by every zerg.
I seem to recall her winning WCS NA.
And arguing about who would beat who in theoretical match up is generally just a waste of time.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 06 2013 20:53 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 20:03 Xoronius wrote:On December 06 2013 10:52 Ouija wrote:
Scarlett would crush Naniwa, I wish that fool was attending the tourney to watch it happen live! Naniwa has been knocked out of the past few major tournaments he has participated in by zerg opponents.
I wish Scarlett the best of luck, but if jaedong/stardust advance out of group B I think she will have a very tough time advancing past the ro8. He got eliminated by Soulkey at Blizzcon (Yes, he made it to Blizzcon, unlike every other foreigner including Scarlett) and by Life at IEM and DH(at least in the WB). At IEM he made it into the finals, unlike Scarlett, who never made a finals in her entire career. Getting eliminated by the two best zergs in the world and knocking out Hyun twice and Leenock on the way to that does not make you crushable that easy by every zerg. I seem to recall her winning WCS NA. And arguing about who would beat who in theoretical match up is generally just a waste of time.
She hasn't been to the finals of a truly international tournament (ie one where Koreans are allowed to participate) as far as I know. I don't necessarily mean to say that one is better than the other, but I think it's hard to argue against Naniwa having had more success in tournaments with Korean participation.
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On December 06 2013 20:59 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 20:53 Squat wrote:On December 06 2013 20:03 Xoronius wrote:On December 06 2013 10:52 Ouija wrote:
Scarlett would crush Naniwa, I wish that fool was attending the tourney to watch it happen live! Naniwa has been knocked out of the past few major tournaments he has participated in by zerg opponents.
I wish Scarlett the best of luck, but if jaedong/stardust advance out of group B I think she will have a very tough time advancing past the ro8. He got eliminated by Soulkey at Blizzcon (Yes, he made it to Blizzcon, unlike every other foreigner including Scarlett) and by Life at IEM and DH(at least in the WB). At IEM he made it into the finals, unlike Scarlett, who never made a finals in her entire career. Getting eliminated by the two best zergs in the world and knocking out Hyun twice and Leenock on the way to that does not make you crushable that easy by every zerg. I seem to recall her winning WCS NA. And arguing about who would beat who in theoretical match up is generally just a waste of time. She hasn't been to the finals of a truly international tournament (ie one where Koreans are allowed to participate) as far as I know. I don't necessarily mean to say that one is better than the other, but I think it's hard to argue against Naniwa having had more success in tournaments with Korean participation.
Thanks Zealously 
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On December 06 2013 20:59 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 20:53 Squat wrote:On December 06 2013 20:03 Xoronius wrote:On December 06 2013 10:52 Ouija wrote:
Scarlett would crush Naniwa, I wish that fool was attending the tourney to watch it happen live! Naniwa has been knocked out of the past few major tournaments he has participated in by zerg opponents.
I wish Scarlett the best of luck, but if jaedong/stardust advance out of group B I think she will have a very tough time advancing past the ro8. He got eliminated by Soulkey at Blizzcon (Yes, he made it to Blizzcon, unlike every other foreigner including Scarlett) and by Life at IEM and DH(at least in the WB). At IEM he made it into the finals, unlike Scarlett, who never made a finals in her entire career. Getting eliminated by the two best zergs in the world and knocking out Hyun twice and Leenock on the way to that does not make you crushable that easy by every zerg. I seem to recall her winning WCS NA. And arguing about who would beat who in theoretical match up is generally just a waste of time. She hasn't been to the finals of a truly international tournament (ie one where Koreans are allowed to participate) as far as I know. I don't necessarily mean to say that one is better than the other, but I think it's hard to argue against Naniwa having had more success in tournaments with Korean participation.
Does RSL not count?
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On December 06 2013 20:53 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 20:03 Xoronius wrote:On December 06 2013 10:52 Ouija wrote:
Scarlett would crush Naniwa, I wish that fool was attending the tourney to watch it happen live! Naniwa has been knocked out of the past few major tournaments he has participated in by zerg opponents.
I wish Scarlett the best of luck, but if jaedong/stardust advance out of group B I think she will have a very tough time advancing past the ro8. He got eliminated by Soulkey at Blizzcon (Yes, he made it to Blizzcon, unlike every other foreigner including Scarlett) and by Life at IEM and DH(at least in the WB). At IEM he made it into the finals, unlike Scarlett, who never made a finals in her entire career. Getting eliminated by the two best zergs in the world and knocking out Hyun twice and Leenock on the way to that does not make you crushable that easy by every zerg. I seem to recall her winning WCS NA. And arguing about who would beat who in theoretical match up is generally just a waste of time.
Generally arguing about this probably would be a waste of time. I´m not trying to start that discussion, I am just saying, that his assumption (said in a pretty aggresive tone) is in no way supported by evidence.
Also when I talk about results, I am talking about premier tournaments. The latest ZOTAC cup had Snute, Kas, Bly, Tefel, Dimaga, Tails and elfi in it. That is probably a stronger line-up than the WCS NA had at that point (IIRC, HuK was in a pretty bad slump at that time, Idra was getting worse and Scarlett was´nt at her current level) and it will never get brought up in a results discussion.
On December 06 2013 21:56 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 20:59 Zealously wrote:On December 06 2013 20:53 Squat wrote:On December 06 2013 20:03 Xoronius wrote:On December 06 2013 10:52 Ouija wrote:
Scarlett would crush Naniwa, I wish that fool was attending the tourney to watch it happen live! Naniwa has been knocked out of the past few major tournaments he has participated in by zerg opponents.
I wish Scarlett the best of luck, but if jaedong/stardust advance out of group B I think she will have a very tough time advancing past the ro8. He got eliminated by Soulkey at Blizzcon (Yes, he made it to Blizzcon, unlike every other foreigner including Scarlett) and by Life at IEM and DH(at least in the WB). At IEM he made it into the finals, unlike Scarlett, who never made a finals in her entire career. Getting eliminated by the two best zergs in the world and knocking out Hyun twice and Leenock on the way to that does not make you crushable that easy by every zerg. I seem to recall her winning WCS NA. And arguing about who would beat who in theoretical match up is generally just a waste of time. She hasn't been to the finals of a truly international tournament (ie one where Koreans are allowed to participate) as far as I know. I don't necessarily mean to say that one is better than the other, but I think it's hard to argue against Naniwa having had more success in tournaments with Korean participation. Does RSL not count?
RSL is worth quite a lot, but in the former statement I was talking about premiers. Pls don´t feel offended by my former statement, but I had to list a few facts against one of your more non-factual followers making unproved and aggressive calls.
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On December 06 2013 20:59 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 20:53 Squat wrote:On December 06 2013 20:03 Xoronius wrote:On December 06 2013 10:52 Ouija wrote:
Scarlett would crush Naniwa, I wish that fool was attending the tourney to watch it happen live! Naniwa has been knocked out of the past few major tournaments he has participated in by zerg opponents.
I wish Scarlett the best of luck, but if jaedong/stardust advance out of group B I think she will have a very tough time advancing past the ro8. He got eliminated by Soulkey at Blizzcon (Yes, he made it to Blizzcon, unlike every other foreigner including Scarlett) and by Life at IEM and DH(at least in the WB). At IEM he made it into the finals, unlike Scarlett, who never made a finals in her entire career. Getting eliminated by the two best zergs in the world and knocking out Hyun twice and Leenock on the way to that does not make you crushable that easy by every zerg. I seem to recall her winning WCS NA. And arguing about who would beat who in theoretical match up is generally just a waste of time. She hasn't been to the finals of a truly international tournament (ie one where Koreans are allowed to participate) as far as I know. I don't necessarily mean to say that one is better than the other, but I think it's hard to argue against Naniwa having had more success in tournaments with Korean participation.
I'm not debating the results, they speak for themselves. I've always been more interested in who you play against and how you fare against top tier opponents, not how far you go in tournaments. That is far too influenced by lucky brackets and happenstance for me. Someone draws 2 foreigners and a fading Korean, someone else draws Maru and SK.
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QUEEN OF BLADES
Shes easily my favorite Zerg... shes just so good its unreal.
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She's definitely the second best foreigner
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On December 06 2013 21:56 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 20:59 Zealously wrote:On December 06 2013 20:53 Squat wrote:On December 06 2013 20:03 Xoronius wrote:On December 06 2013 10:52 Ouija wrote:
Scarlett would crush Naniwa, I wish that fool was attending the tourney to watch it happen live! Naniwa has been knocked out of the past few major tournaments he has participated in by zerg opponents.
I wish Scarlett the best of luck, but if jaedong/stardust advance out of group B I think she will have a very tough time advancing past the ro8. He got eliminated by Soulkey at Blizzcon (Yes, he made it to Blizzcon, unlike every other foreigner including Scarlett) and by Life at IEM and DH(at least in the WB). At IEM he made it into the finals, unlike Scarlett, who never made a finals in her entire career. Getting eliminated by the two best zergs in the world and knocking out Hyun twice and Leenock on the way to that does not make you crushable that easy by every zerg. I seem to recall her winning WCS NA. And arguing about who would beat who in theoretical match up is generally just a waste of time. She hasn't been to the finals of a truly international tournament (ie one where Koreans are allowed to participate) as far as I know. I don't necessarily mean to say that one is better than the other, but I think it's hard to argue against Naniwa having had more success in tournaments with Korean participation. Does RSL not count?
Just a question, but did you get to the finals of the most recent RSL?
I remember you losing a very close ZvZ to Life in the semis of a RSL.
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On December 06 2013 23:50 TaishiCi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 21:56 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On December 06 2013 20:59 Zealously wrote:On December 06 2013 20:53 Squat wrote:On December 06 2013 20:03 Xoronius wrote:On December 06 2013 10:52 Ouija wrote:
Scarlett would crush Naniwa, I wish that fool was attending the tourney to watch it happen live! Naniwa has been knocked out of the past few major tournaments he has participated in by zerg opponents.
I wish Scarlett the best of luck, but if jaedong/stardust advance out of group B I think she will have a very tough time advancing past the ro8. He got eliminated by Soulkey at Blizzcon (Yes, he made it to Blizzcon, unlike every other foreigner including Scarlett) and by Life at IEM and DH(at least in the WB). At IEM he made it into the finals, unlike Scarlett, who never made a finals in her entire career. Getting eliminated by the two best zergs in the world and knocking out Hyun twice and Leenock on the way to that does not make you crushable that easy by every zerg. I seem to recall her winning WCS NA. And arguing about who would beat who in theoretical match up is generally just a waste of time. She hasn't been to the finals of a truly international tournament (ie one where Koreans are allowed to participate) as far as I know. I don't necessarily mean to say that one is better than the other, but I think it's hard to argue against Naniwa having had more success in tournaments with Korean participation. Does RSL not count? Just a question, but did you get to the finals of the most recent RSL? I remember you losing a very close ZvZ to Life in the semis of a RSL.
2nd RSL :o
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On December 07 2013 00:05 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 23:50 TaishiCi wrote:On December 06 2013 21:56 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On December 06 2013 20:59 Zealously wrote:On December 06 2013 20:53 Squat wrote:On December 06 2013 20:03 Xoronius wrote:On December 06 2013 10:52 Ouija wrote:
Scarlett would crush Naniwa, I wish that fool was attending the tourney to watch it happen live! Naniwa has been knocked out of the past few major tournaments he has participated in by zerg opponents.
I wish Scarlett the best of luck, but if jaedong/stardust advance out of group B I think she will have a very tough time advancing past the ro8. He got eliminated by Soulkey at Blizzcon (Yes, he made it to Blizzcon, unlike every other foreigner including Scarlett) and by Life at IEM and DH(at least in the WB). At IEM he made it into the finals, unlike Scarlett, who never made a finals in her entire career. Getting eliminated by the two best zergs in the world and knocking out Hyun twice and Leenock on the way to that does not make you crushable that easy by every zerg. I seem to recall her winning WCS NA. And arguing about who would beat who in theoretical match up is generally just a waste of time. She hasn't been to the finals of a truly international tournament (ie one where Koreans are allowed to participate) as far as I know. I don't necessarily mean to say that one is better than the other, but I think it's hard to argue against Naniwa having had more success in tournaments with Korean participation. Does RSL not count? Just a question, but did you get to the finals of the most recent RSL? I remember you losing a very close ZvZ to Life in the semis of a RSL. 2nd RSL :o
i remember cause you beat HerO! that definitely counts
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"The GSL has thought it sufficient to hold their Hot6ix Cup solely with players from the WCS Korea region, and as arrogant as that decision may seem, it cannot be faulted unless a foreigner proves them wrong."
What a joke. Koreans don't owe foreigners anything, don't need to invite their players to their GSL pantheon to accommodate viewers who hold more allegiance to a nation, player, gender, or skin color than skill. If Scarlett was good enough to be there, she would be there, win or loss at this next tournament.
People don't realize this has happened before, probably around 8-9 years ago. Foreigners fell behind their Korean counterparts, and fans left because of it. No big loss for top level play in BW. Won't be a big loss for SC2.
EDIT: I do want to wish best of luck to Scarlett. There will be tough competition ahead. I don't know much about SC2, but I have the suspicion that floating over 1k from ~7:00-9:00 vs. Bomber is a display of limitations.
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On December 06 2013 20:03 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 10:52 Ouija wrote:
Scarlett would crush Naniwa, I wish that fool was attending the tourney to watch it happen live! Naniwa has been knocked out of the past few major tournaments he has participated in by zerg opponents.
I wish Scarlett the best of luck, but if jaedong/stardust advance out of group B I think she will have a very tough time advancing past the ro8. He got eliminated by Soulkey at Blizzcon (Yes, he made it to Blizzcon, unlike every other foreigner including Scarlett) and by Life at IEM and DH(at least in the WB). At IEM he made it into the finals, unlike Scarlett, who never made a finals in her entire career. Getting eliminated by the two best zergs in the world and knocking out Hyun twice and Leenock on the way to that does not make you crushable that easy by every zerg.
Jaedong? :D
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EPT
