• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 18:29
CET 00:29
KST 08:29
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13
Community News
[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation13Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA8StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon!45$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship7
StarCraft 2
General
[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 3 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest Tenacious Turtle Tussle Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ What happened to TvZ on Retro? SnOw's ASL S20 Finals Review BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] RO32 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO32 Group C - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
PvZ map balance Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers How to stay on top of macro?
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Clair Obscur - Expedition 33 Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread About SC2SEA.COM Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Dyadica Gospel – a Pulp No…
Hildegard
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2177 users

Bisu retires - Page 37

Forum Index > SC2 General
1100 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 35 36 37 38 39 56 Next
nighcol
Profile Joined January 2012
298 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-09 18:06:50
September 09 2013 18:06 GMT
#721
On September 10 2013 01:56 Ciryandor wrote:
Fish server has 24k+ active players at any one time if my recent watching of snipealot is correct; probably means there's 50k+ unique users/day. Still quite a few players, how much more would fan counts be?

As for sponsorship support, see SSL 8; Mike Morhaime basically had to tell Blizzard Korea to not charge Sonic the broadcast license for BW even if the tournament had over 5k USD in total prize pool. Do you see Valve asking for a license fee for tournies over 5k, and shutting them down if they didn't pay up? Same thing with Riot.


Admittedly it's probably a very bad time but am I understanding something wrong here, looks like fishbattle.net has user stats at the top and the number online (if I am looking at the correct numbers) sits currently at somewhere around 3.5k which is pretty far from 24k+. There's certainly no number anywhere close to that on that bar. SC2 has always had 15k+ _games_ being played when I've happened to log in.
WoodenSky
Profile Joined September 2013
France66 Posts
September 09 2013 18:10 GMT
#722
On September 10 2013 03:03 Grumbels wrote:
Henin quit because of a silent doping suspension, so go the rumors.


You stop that right now !
Henin was and still remains the only woman whose tennis I consider purely enjoyable.
Gendo
Profile Joined June 2012
United Kingdom216 Posts
September 09 2013 18:10 GMT
#723
Compulsory military service was and is in effect in many countries, never broke people dreams or ruined lives.

In Korea you can do it pretty much when you want, somewhere else you just got to do it when of age, completely irrelevant argument.
juvenal
Profile Joined July 2013
2448 Posts
September 09 2013 18:11 GMT
#724
On September 10 2013 03:05 lolfail9001 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2013 03:04 juvenal wrote:
Guys, your overly positive or just a bit fanboy's look at SC2 playing it's role in recent retirements is swept away by Jangbi's direct words: not interested in sc2. You can read it between the lines in Bisu's case too. Sheer frustration at the game. Ok, he didn't say it directly, but you've got to be blind just to not see it. Or you can just turn the logic off and happily believe sc2 is flourishing.

I for one, can't read his brain, but i see him enjoying BW, so if he liked it, it's his choice. But trust me, you can get frustrated with any game. Yes, BW too. And no, SC2 is not doing as fine as LoL, it does fine enough for a game like SC2.

i don't want to argue about this, but "a game like sc2" isn't exactly the way I see it. SC2 is the RTS flagman, there are no competitors even and it's a successor to BW - the father of all esports - too. It shouldve topped the world
Michael Probu
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
September 09 2013 18:11 GMT
#725
On September 10 2013 03:04 juvenal wrote:
Guys, your overly positive or just a bit fanboy's look at SC2 playing it's role in recent retirements is swept away by Jangbi's direct words: not interested in sc2. You can read it between the lines in Bisu's case too. Sheer frustration at the game. Ok, he didn't say it directly, but you've got to be blind just to not see it. Or you can just turn the logic off and happily believe sc2 is flourishing.

Because two guys who have won nothing (in SC2) retiring means that the SC2 world is crashing down around our ears.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
Sabu113
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States11075 Posts
September 09 2013 18:11 GMT
#726
On September 10 2013 02:17 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2013 02:15 ( bush wrote:
On September 10 2013 02:09 HerrHorst wrote:
On September 10 2013 01:29 WoodenSky wrote:
Clap
Clap
Clap

Am I the only one who sees every one of these retirements as a kick in the nose of SC2's design team?
Thanks for trying Bisu, noone will blame you for leaving.


Because someone retiring is clearly an indication for such a claim. When Gerd Müller retired from football literally every german was blaming the game.

But I know how this kind of threads works, the broodwar-fans will use every oppurtunity to hate SC2.




cmon, we see retirement annoucements daily on this forum, something is clearly fucked up with the game.

Conformation bias is the best form of evidence on the internet. I see a thing and assume that is proves the point I want it to confirm, while disregarding all other reasons and evidence.


The Nile is a big river in Egypt. Just call it natural downsizing following the first major post season. The scene is smaller much smaller in korea than it was and there are more pro teams (or I've lost count). This is a natural thing.

Besides these retirements tend to be vindication for the people poohpoohing the notion that any sense of "excitement" over sc2 in interviews was more than KESPA dictated PR.

Anyway, could be exciting times if he plays in SOPSA. If you(pl) ever want some variety, might be worth following Jangbi and co back for a BW game or two.
Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME', because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video ...-Wombat_Ni
haka
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1414 Posts
September 09 2013 18:13 GMT
#727
....no....NO....NOOOOOOoooooo....

I really hope he plays in SOSPA though. Please Bisu pleaseeeeee....
lolfail9001
Profile Joined August 2013
Russian Federation40190 Posts
September 09 2013 18:13 GMT
#728
On September 10 2013 03:11 juvenal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2013 03:05 lolfail9001 wrote:
On September 10 2013 03:04 juvenal wrote:
Guys, your overly positive or just a bit fanboy's look at SC2 playing it's role in recent retirements is swept away by Jangbi's direct words: not interested in sc2. You can read it between the lines in Bisu's case too. Sheer frustration at the game. Ok, he didn't say it directly, but you've got to be blind just to not see it. Or you can just turn the logic off and happily believe sc2 is flourishing.

I for one, can't read his brain, but i see him enjoying BW, so if he liked it, it's his choice. But trust me, you can get frustrated with any game. Yes, BW too. And no, SC2 is not doing as fine as LoL, it does fine enough for a game like SC2.

i don't want to argue about this, but "a game like sc2" isn't exactly the way I see it. SC2 is the RTS flagman, there are no competitors even and it's a successor to BW - the father of all esports - too. It shouldve topped the world

SC2 is RTS flagman in age, when RTSs are not very popular in general.
DeMoN pulls off a Miracle and Flies to the Moon
HerrHorst
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany140 Posts
September 09 2013 18:13 GMT
#729
On September 10 2013 03:01 WoodenSky wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2013 02:56 Plansix wrote:
On September 10 2013 02:52 WoodenSky wrote:
Both Jordan and Schumacher left when they felt they could only decline from that point on.
They still came back because they loved their respective sport so much they couldn't live without it (I'm willing to bet noone is coming back on SC2), their afterward performances proved they were right to retire in the first place.

"Also he is at the age where all of this "non" progamer friends are likely settling down or starting up lives. I am sure that progaming house starts to look a little small when your friends start getting married."
Now that's a very good point :p

Michael Jordan retires specifically because of the murder of his father and loss of desire to play the game due to that. It has nothing to do with leaving while on the top. The man was crushed because he lost his father and couldn't play basket ball because of it. And when he came back, he did very well.


I meant the second comeback for Jordan which, while not that bad and chiefly destroyed by injuries, wasn't up his prime's level. Yet again Jordan's first retirement is indeed very peculiar and he was a bad example.
Henin and Schumacher make my case better.


"Actually Schuhmacher stated on german television he just was getting tired of Formula One and wanted to spent time with his family.

And his comeback mostly failed because of his flawed car."

He spent two years with his family before... coming back to his beloved career.
And the car wasn't that flawed, Rosberg was doing much better than him.


I guess we all know this feeling to miss something after you ended doing it. I spent 5 years in the bundeswehr (german army) and was absolutely tired of it but shortly after my retirement I started to miss it.

Before we go even further OT: We dont know why Bisu exactly retires and we can assume that things like his happens from time to time especially when you have to adjust to a new game and you are not beeing very succesful with it.





Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 09 2013 18:14 GMT
#730
On September 10 2013 03:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2013 03:04 juvenal wrote:
Guys, your overly positive or just a bit fanboy's look at SC2 playing it's role in recent retirements is swept away by Jangbi's direct words: not interested in sc2. You can read it between the lines in Bisu's case too. Sheer frustration at the game. Ok, he didn't say it directly, but you've got to be blind just to not see it. Or you can just turn the logic off and happily believe sc2 is flourishing.

Because two guys who have won nothing (in SC2) retiring means that the SC2 world is crashing down around our ears.

Yeah, people keep overlooking the part where they haven't won anything or qualified. Did he even make it into the GSL or any other event?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Intricate
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada127 Posts
September 09 2013 18:14 GMT
#731
HUUUUWWWAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTT omg no way man! here i am thinking that flash and jaedong are starting to show their true forms and it was time for bisu to try and do the same =( sad news!
"We all live inside of NesTea's dream" - Artosis
juvenal
Profile Joined July 2013
2448 Posts
September 09 2013 18:15 GMT
#732
On September 10 2013 03:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2013 03:04 juvenal wrote:
Guys, your overly positive or just a bit fanboy's look at SC2 playing it's role in recent retirements is swept away by Jangbi's direct words: not interested in sc2. You can read it between the lines in Bisu's case too. Sheer frustration at the game. Ok, he didn't say it directly, but you've got to be blind just to not see it. Or you can just turn the logic off and happily believe sc2 is flourishing.

Because two guys who have won nothing (in SC2) retiring means that the SC2 world is crashing down around our ears.

and gstl is virtually no more, so is esf, and proleague is half LoL, and MLG has bidden farewell, teams collapsing left and right for whatever reasons. But let's stay positive. Yay.
Michael Probu
lolfail9001
Profile Joined August 2013
Russian Federation40190 Posts
September 09 2013 18:17 GMT
#733
On September 10 2013 03:15 juvenal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2013 03:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On September 10 2013 03:04 juvenal wrote:
Guys, your overly positive or just a bit fanboy's look at SC2 playing it's role in recent retirements is swept away by Jangbi's direct words: not interested in sc2. You can read it between the lines in Bisu's case too. Sheer frustration at the game. Ok, he didn't say it directly, but you've got to be blind just to not see it. Or you can just turn the logic off and happily believe sc2 is flourishing.

Because two guys who have won nothing (in SC2) retiring means that the SC2 world is crashing down around our ears.

and gstl is virtually no more, so is esf, and proleague is half LoL, and MLG has bidden farewell, teams collapsing left and right for whatever reasons. But let's stay positive. Yay.

3 teams leave gstl=APOCALYPSE.
2 teams less in esf=APOCALYPSE
proleague is in pursue of money, not passion, so LoL is obvious choice.
MLG=ever going time conflicts and MLG confirmed the only reason there are no SC2 at Columbus cause Red bull event.
DeMoN pulls off a Miracle and Flies to the Moon
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 09 2013 18:18 GMT
#734
On September 10 2013 03:15 juvenal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2013 03:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On September 10 2013 03:04 juvenal wrote:
Guys, your overly positive or just a bit fanboy's look at SC2 playing it's role in recent retirements is swept away by Jangbi's direct words: not interested in sc2. You can read it between the lines in Bisu's case too. Sheer frustration at the game. Ok, he didn't say it directly, but you've got to be blind just to not see it. Or you can just turn the logic off and happily believe sc2 is flourishing.

Because two guys who have won nothing (in SC2) retiring means that the SC2 world is crashing down around our ears.

and gstl is virtually no more, so is esf, and proleague is half LoL, and MLG has bidden farewell, teams collapsing left and right for whatever reasons. But let's stay positive. Yay.

Korea has its own problems with ESF and Kespa fighting each other over who can broadcast what, slowly eating each other alive. MLG will carry SC2 again when there isn't an conflicting event for the same weekend(which is being run by someone they have a good relationship with) and teams fall apart for reasons that have nothing to do with SC2. Everyone keeps overlooking that other teams received major funding just last week.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
HerrHorst
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany140 Posts
September 09 2013 18:18 GMT
#735
On September 10 2013 03:15 juvenal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2013 03:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On September 10 2013 03:04 juvenal wrote:
Guys, your overly positive or just a bit fanboy's look at SC2 playing it's role in recent retirements is swept away by Jangbi's direct words: not interested in sc2. You can read it between the lines in Bisu's case too. Sheer frustration at the game. Ok, he didn't say it directly, but you've got to be blind just to not see it. Or you can just turn the logic off and happily believe sc2 is flourishing.

Because two guys who have won nothing (in SC2) retiring means that the SC2 world is crashing down around our ears.

and gstl is virtually no more, so is esf, and proleague is half LoL, and MLG has bidden farewell, teams collapsing left and right for whatever reasons. But let's stay positive. Yay.


And WCS has of course nothing to do with the changes of tournaments...


juvenal
Profile Joined July 2013
2448 Posts
September 09 2013 18:19 GMT
#736
On September 10 2013 03:14 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2013 03:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On September 10 2013 03:04 juvenal wrote:
Guys, your overly positive or just a bit fanboy's look at SC2 playing it's role in recent retirements is swept away by Jangbi's direct words: not interested in sc2. You can read it between the lines in Bisu's case too. Sheer frustration at the game. Ok, he didn't say it directly, but you've got to be blind just to not see it. Or you can just turn the logic off and happily believe sc2 is flourishing.

Because two guys who have won nothing (in SC2) retiring means that the SC2 world is crashing down around our ears.

Yeah, people keep overlooking the part where they haven't won anything or qualified. Did he even make it into the GSL or any other event?

he was A FIGURE in esports, he could have just sit on the SKT T1's bench and smile to the camera, not participating in any goddamn tournament. Sad you don't understand that. If you want gsl winners go cheer for seed and sniper i guess. Oh what a blast there will be when those retire. Right?
Michael Probu
Muffloe
Profile Joined December 2012
Sweden6061 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-09 18:21:15
September 09 2013 18:20 GMT
#737
SC2 is in fact a new game, I don't see how (the former)BW pros HAVE to enjoy it. And when they don't, how does that prove any point? it is a different game we are speaking ovth
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
September 09 2013 18:21 GMT
#738
I blame social media, they made it so an entire generation has lost their attention spans. No wonder RTS is less popular these days.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 09 2013 18:27 GMT
#739
On September 10 2013 03:19 juvenal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2013 03:14 Plansix wrote:
On September 10 2013 03:11 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On September 10 2013 03:04 juvenal wrote:
Guys, your overly positive or just a bit fanboy's look at SC2 playing it's role in recent retirements is swept away by Jangbi's direct words: not interested in sc2. You can read it between the lines in Bisu's case too. Sheer frustration at the game. Ok, he didn't say it directly, but you've got to be blind just to not see it. Or you can just turn the logic off and happily believe sc2 is flourishing.

Because two guys who have won nothing (in SC2) retiring means that the SC2 world is crashing down around our ears.

Yeah, people keep overlooking the part where they haven't won anything or qualified. Did he even make it into the GSL or any other event?

he was A FIGURE in esports, he could have just sit on the SKT T1's bench and smile to the camera, not participating in any goddamn tournament. Sad you don't understand that. If you want gsl winners go cheer for seed and sniper i guess. Oh what a blast there will be when those retire. Right?

You really think he could just it on the bench and collected a pay check for doing that for as long as he wanted? Are you kidding? And why would he want to do that? That is the saddest fate I would wish on anyone that was a competitor.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GoonFFS
Profile Joined April 2010
Denmark323 Posts
September 09 2013 18:27 GMT
#740
tactical move - will come back at lotv
http://konvictgaming.com/ -> @KrugerFFS
Prev 1 35 36 37 38 39 56 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
23:00
WardiTV Mondays #59
CranKy Ducklings45
LiquipediaDiscussion
BSL 21
20:00
ProLeague - RO32 Group D
JDConan vs Semih
Dragon vs Dienmax
Tech vs NewOcean
TerrOr vs Artosis
ZZZero.O251
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nathanias 235
Ketroc 32
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 370
ZZZero.O 251
yabsab 6
Dota 2
Pyrionflax188
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 372
Counter-Strike
fl0m1518
kRYSTAL_107
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox610
AZ_Axe88
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor176
Other Games
tarik_tv6639
Grubby4514
ToD143
Maynarde103
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV971
gamesdonequick813
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 22 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 77
• RyuSc2 41
• davetesta31
• musti20045 28
• HeavenSC 25
• Adnapsc2 7
• OhrlRock 2
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21705
• Ler72
League of Legends
• Doublelift2665
Other Games
• imaqtpie1673
• Shiphtur311
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
12h 31m
Monday Night Weeklies
17h 31m
Replay Cast
23h 31m
WardiTV Korean Royale
1d 12h
BSL: GosuLeague
1d 21h
The PondCast
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
BSL: GosuLeague
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Korean Royale
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
5 days
IPSL
5 days
Julia vs Artosis
JDConan vs DragOn
RSL Revival
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
IPSL
6 days
StRyKeR vs OldBoy
Sziky vs Tarson
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-14
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
SLON Tour Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.