On June 12 2013 06:59 geokilla wrote: [quote] Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
[quote]
I don't see how what you quoted could be used against Azubu players. Unless they were paid in 1 dollar bills with blood on them, then I doubt there was enough indication that it was so blatant that "you must have known that the property was stolen". I'm sure plenty of players have little idea exactly how money are generated by their teams except that they know sponsors somehow help, but surely Azubu could have had a silent sponsor.
This turn of events is sad, but not really surprising. It was always looking with high probability to be either 1) a rich person with no business sense, or 2) something very sketchy. I hope the players will manage, though I'm afraid the majority will retire with the current saturation of talent in Korea.
Well look at it this way. Everyone knows that Azubu is involved with money laundering. Unless the players, coaches, etc. are all dense, then they know as well. The police can go after them because the players now know they are getting paid and spending illegal funds.
That's not at all how it works, from a legal perspective.
Really? In what country? Because AFAIK, knowingly, or sometimes even unknowingly, handling or receiving etc the proceeds of a crime is a crime itself. If they know or suspect money they are receiving is from fraud, then they are potentially able to be charged with receiving proceeds of a crime, that's the law in the US, UK and Australia, for example, and probably many other countries as well.
That's really not how it works... it's easy to say something like that and you might even make a case for it in strictly semantic/literal terms. But judges oftentimes recognize the in-feasibility of being so arrest/punishment happy, especially if it's unknowingly.
Think about it this way, just how many random butlers/restaurants/waiters were tipped by Bernie Madoff and just how many establishments are visited on a daily basis by criminals?
Past money, no, current or future money, if they are still even getting paid, then yes. They wouldn't necessarily be considered guilty for past money received, but anything from when there was a high level of suspicion they could be found guilty. Also the original post said police can go after them because they "now know". Which is true, which is what I was agreeing with under the assumption they were still getting money, although really they probably aren't, so they won't be guilty if they haven't received anything.
If they do receive money now and then cash it out ASAP, then they would almost certainly be found guilty, for example. They are at a point where the players/manager can somewhat reasonably assume the money has a high probability of being dodgy, and therefore they could be found guilty.
So if you're a worker at some company that is involved in some scandal (say, money laundering), working there becomes illegal once the rumors start and are publicly discussed?
I'm fairly certain that's not how the world or the law works, anywhere.
If there is reasonable suspicion that you are knowledgeable and profiting off of money obtained through illegal means, you can be detained for it, at least in the US.
If you're some non-important low-level office worker in a company where the CEO is implicated in money laundering, you're probably safe.
I don't think that's entirely true. What you are likely referring to is a law that is meant to use to prosecute pimps and fences, not paid employees of an organization that may be used for money laundering.
Besides, if this was true, many criminal defense lawyers would be in trouble (not to mention the lawyers for Enron, Madoff, etc.).
Lawyers are specifically exempted, otherwise the entire legal system would be a sham. But yes, in any case, it would be really hard to convict anyone working as a non-management employee, no matter how shady the company looked. No one needs to worry about the Azubu players/eSports team managers being found guilty.
On April 04 2013 05:39 Otolia wrote: Azubu is a shady organisation and this whole ordeal reeks of money laundering from miles away. If I was still in Berlin I would visit the Handelzentrum just to see if there is indeed anything space lent by Azubu.
Proof of this?
On June 06 2013 16:50 anemoneya wrote: YUP it's confirmed by media.
Korean news announced Kim owns paper company Multi-Luck Investment Limited in British Virgin Island for tax avoiding purpose. The one and only shareholder of SYSK Limited is Multi-Luck Investment Limited. As OP posted, SYSK Limited owns trademark of AZUBU.
Who is this Kim? He commited financial crime in Korea years ago and fled to Hongkong/Europe with billions of money.
You can start to guess where all this funding for e-sport is coming from when azubu doesn't seem to have clear source of income?
UPDATE: more articles in Korean that explains the relationship between AZUBU and Kim Seok Ki
Not to mention they are already published online by reputable newspaper companies, but with less focus on e-sports scene itself because of recent accusations on Kim and other well known names including son of former president of Korea, Chun-doo-hwan.
Interesting...very interesting. I received this pm an hour ago.
Yeah, if you look at Clauf.com (subsidiarie of Azubu Europe I guess) it's the same way of marketing. They pretend to be a huge firm working with big names, but in fact they can't live up to these expectations. If you ask me, their whole bussiness concept seems to be scamming some investors...
I never heard of clauf.com, so I immediately began search starting with their website.
1. They claim they are global company based in berlin, with asian division in korea. sounds familiar? yeah Azubu claimed to be global company based in berlin, but their main office turned out to be in Korea
2. The homepage seemed to be made with purpose of attracting investors, with no other functionality.
3. I looked up their german address. It's some nice looking building in the heart of berlin. Couln't look up the company name on google maps. (it's possible it's not updated)
4. They claim they are supported by influential gaming communities in Korea such as playxp.com and fpskorea. I was shocked here because I use playxp.com often. So I started to find connection between them.
First of all, googling "azubu clauf" or reading this TL thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=401488¤tpage=5), we can find out clauf is subsidiary or something of Azubu Europe.
I looked up korean address of Clauf. No one has ever heard of Clauf in Korea. There was company that was doing the same business in Korea at the same address. http://www.idoflux.com/index
idoflux.com It's pretty old and small company since 2003 or something. Idoflux's CEO Donghyun Kim is listed as COO of Clauf and there is new CEO in Clauf. Idoflux = Clauf. Maybe Azubu bought out Idoflux and put new CEO in charge. Anyway, it's like azubu's real address in korea being gamebook korea's address. Same company, just different named used.
I went to fpskorea.com and saw at the bottom it's owned by idoflux. Years ago, I knew playxp.com was run by an individual. To check the ownership of playxp.com, I asked around in their forum http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=4567381 . Someone who knew history of playxp.com well told me that playxp.com was taken over by idoflux year ago. However, they didn't know that idoflux is actually clauf.com which is subsidiary of Azubu. No where in playxp site it mentions to which company it belongs to.
Anyway, if you are not korean and don't go to playxp.com, it's not big news. Personally, I feel like shit...to find out the community I love was secretly taken over by azubu.
Damn, I think azubu is the real esports illuminati! They're everywhere hidden behind 100s of paper companies! I think azubu has their hooks in every esports organization. TL, EG, MLG, ESL, etc....you name it and they'll be a trail of paper companies leading back to azubu. I think we should start protecting azubu guys now and stop asking questions. If azubu goes down, global esports goes down with them!!!!!
On June 14 2013 02:52 Canucklehead wrote: Damn, I think azubu is the real esports illuminati! They're everywhere hidden behind 100s of paper companies! I think azubu has their hooks in every esports organization. TL, EG, MLG, ESL, etc....you name it and they'll be a trail of paper companies leading back to azubu. I think we should start protecting azubu guys now and stop asking questions. If azubu goes down, global esports goes down with them!!!!!
On June 14 2013 02:52 Canucklehead wrote: Damn, I think azubu is the real esports illuminati! They're everywhere hidden behind 100s of paper companies! I think azubu has their hooks in every esports organization. TL, EG, MLG, ESL, etc....you name it and they'll be a trail of paper companies leading back to azubu. I think we should start protecting azubu guys now and stop asking questions. If azubu goes down, global esports goes down with them!!!!!
Is this sarcasm? I am not sure anymore.
Hey, we do what we have to to keep eSports alive. What about that do you find hard to take seriously?
-flashes secret Azubu ring casually and glares at you-
This was apparently scrapped because the Koreans, i.e. the staff, especially the bosses couldn't understand the articles. As I said in a previous post, there were some Americans there initially to help out with the English, direct the content, but they either quit or were fired.
Many moons ago, the mysterious Dr. Kim had a brilliant idea: one part sweet games media, one helping of a cool gamer community, smothered in tangy style sauce and wrapped ever-so-gently in a tortilla of social networking awesomeness.
Hm, it took us pretty long to figure out who was standing behind azubu :D
journalist from inven.co.kr already accused clauf.com+playxp for secretly being related to Azubu. The COO of clauf.com made official comment that they have no connection to Azubu, which turned out to be complete lie. They said they will send official statement to inven.co.kr but it didn't happen yet.
The entry for the Handelsregister, which is listed at the bottom of the clauf.com page is real, BUT if you try to google "Clauf GmbH" there is NOTHING in return. So they are obviously a HUGE company which has done an awful lot ...
That office address is prime real estate and would fetch the highest rent. That building has been built after the unification and is quite modern and it doesnt look as shabby as the last one near Friedrichstraße. Sadly the housing management page doesnt list the companies (Why not?) who have rented a space there.
If they were real about Clauf they would have made an effort with that internet page. It is ugly and one looooooooonnnnggg scroll down page design filled with a whole lot of bubblkes of emptiness, which anyone knows is highly impractical. The location maps would usually be on a subpage titled "contact" ... and so on. So it is quite clear that it is another load of nothing.
anyway gomsnowbird works there now, for what thats' worth
Man, the best GOM employee got sucked in to the AZUBU black hole? That's sad, was just wondering what happened to him
Yeah last I heard he said he was moving back to germany and would announce his plans soon. That was months ago and never heard what he was up to since. Looks like he got sucked into azubu web too. Poor guy.
MAYBE Azubu and Clauf just happen to have the same investors and that's it? Clauf's website indicates a new office address, so they might just about to be starting their business. This would explain their shitty homepage and why there's not much on the web yet.
On June 20 2013 17:11 He4dsh0t wrote: MAYBE Azubu and Clauf just happen to have the same investors and that's it? Clauf's website indicates a new office address, so they might just about to be starting their business. This would explain their shitty homepage and why there's not much on the web yet.
I really like naive thinking like this ... NOT.
If you are SERIOUS about a business you DONT release a shitty website, you test it first and then release it. You should also make an effort of getting some "meat" behind your claims and actually do something ... which you can put as achievements on that website. This is not the case and the whole thing reads like "we intend to do this and that" ... so basically it is in a really really early "alpha state" for the company OR it is a scam for the most gullible fools in the "I have too much money and want to invest in something cool" business.
I bet it would the same story as for the azubu offices if I went there to check up, but since I am a lazy git and dont really get into the center of the city that often I wont do it.
Oh and in case you didnt notice ... the managers seem to be exactly the same too between the companies.
A "GmbH" is a company type, where the owner of the company only has to cover up to 50.000 € (maybe even less than that) in losses. You need 25.000 € of "founding capital" and the company is liable with that money ... but nothing more and the owners personal funds are untouchable iirc. Sooo they could scam some investors, transfer the money to azubu and then claim those as losses and pay that limited amount of money back to get a clean bill ... and then shut "Clauf GmbH" down.
A GmbH is usually a good type of company for small to medium businesses, because you - the owner - arent liable with your personal property, but in this case it seems a bit shady since the money involved could be a lot bigger.
EPT
