EPTterran and toss can make a deathball where quantity doesnt count anymore it doesnt matter how many zerglings you run at a maxed out toss army hell hold out indefinently so the only way to counter it is with quality
Race Design vs. Game Design - Page 5
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
terran and toss can make a deathball where quantity doesnt count anymore it doesnt matter how many zerglings you run at a maxed out toss army hell hold out indefinently so the only way to counter it is with quality | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On January 06 2013 17:08 Forikorder wrote: the problem with Zerg consisting of a bunchg of fast cheap units in large numbers is the enemy jsut sits there deathball in one place and trades super cost effectively terran and toss can make a deathball where quantity doesnt count anymore it doesnt matter how many zerglings you run at a maxed out toss army hell hold out indefinently so the only way to counter it is with quality This... I'm not really surprised that this thread just turned into another Zerg whine thread really. Every other post is "Terran and Protoss are fine, Zerg is too good"... LOL.. I remember this game from Spring Championship at MLG, MKP vs DRG... They both open quick 3 bases, no blows are exchanged, DRG goes Muta/Ling, covers half of Cloud Kingdom in creep, and is trying to take a 4th as MKP moves out with his first army. He catches MKPs Marine/Tank/Medivac army on creep with Ling/Bling/Muta, absolutely crushes it, but 2 minutes later, MKP has another force of equal size at DRGs 4th, and DRG has to abandon it, to get time to have a big enough army to crush it. He sacs the 4th, taking the base on the other side, but absolutely crushes the push. That's 2 Terran armies crushed with all the mighty Zerg swarm can produce, but supplies are still almost even, when MKP moves out with his 3rd army.... DRG is now on 4 bases vs 3, and his creep is actually at MKPs 4th on Cloud Kingdom. He's building a 5th hatchery at the position where he had taken his 4th originally, and MKP denies it, they fight again, on creep, and this time, DRG barely kills MKPs push and falls behind in supply. We saw these games before in the GSL, again and again, until Zerg started using Infestor. Artosis used to call it the "SC style", where Terran built army after army and kept trading with the Zerg, until the cost inefficiency became insurmountable for the Zerg, no matter how many extra bases the Zerg had. By the time DRG and MKP played this game though, Infestors were part of the metagame, and just as DRG fell behind with Muta/Ling, he managed to squeeze out Infestor tech. MKP, who had been on 3 bases vs 4 the whole time, was unable to take a 4th, because DRGs insane creep spread denied it. That gave DRG enough time, to take yet another base, and get out Infestor/Ultra. The next time they fought, they were once again equal in supply but this time, DRG was actually cost efficient, thanks to fungals finally allowing banelings to do what they're supposed to do, trade cost efficiently with Terran bio. He finally crushed MKPs army without losing even more resources himself, and from there went on to win the game. I'm sorry so many Terrans miss those games, where Zerg would crush push after push only to run out of steam and eventually lose. I don't miss them one bit. | ||
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17Sphynx17
580 Posts
Technically, I feel the real problem I see with the Zerg race is no viable Air Army. This is my belief though so you may disagree with me. I kind of felt that from the get-go, the corrupter and brood lord should have been an evolution of the Mutalisk. No corrupter to broodlord. It just didn't make sense to me. You start off with massing up mutas if that is the point you can reach with your tech tree, then at tier 3, I would have believed the better design would have been to select an evolution for the mutalisk which is an air only attacker or a ground only attacker, thus buffing the units attack potential and hp. It might seem similar to that of brood war but the devourer never had a corruption ability which could be counted as an evolution for the dna strain. And the same goes for the broddlord, the bw unit wasn't technically a ground support as it never added to your ground army. So it wouldn't count as a reversal of evolution, which is the whole purpose of zerg. Swarm host are kind of meh for me at this point. From a spectator's stand point, I find them to be a game breaker, either for your end or the enemies. It just seems odd to me and I really imagined the swarm host to actually be an evolution from the infestor. And in terms of costs, then I just simply say the actual cost of making the infestor/mutalisk is deducted from the cost it takes to currently make broodlord/corrupter/swarm host. So its more of a time factor that is affected by the evolution again which is race specific to the zerg. My two cents only so you may agree or disagree with me. Cheers! | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
If you make the "swarmy race" too cheap and fast and easily controlled you will enable them to go everywhere in superior numbers so the "expensive and better units" of that other race will simply be overrun. We see this problem clearly when we compare SC2 to its predecessor and look at what has changed. This isnt the only example of where Blizzard "did too much" and many of the bad apples come from the general game "improvements" of SC2 over BW and not the racial design. Unlimited unit selection, forced super clumped movement and production speed boosts coupled with a higher economy all lead to too many units on the battlefield to the point where quality of a unit doesnt matter anymore and reproduction capability becomes very very VERY important. | ||
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Big-t
Austria1350 Posts
Z remove infestor and BL P remove warp tech and FFs => buff or new gate way units | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 06 2013 19:29 Rabiator wrote: The thing is that race design is good as a concept, but there is only so far you can go with it to not make it terribly imbalanced. Too strong individual units can break the game as much as too fast or too cheap ones. If you make the "swarmy race" too cheap and fast and easily controlled you will enable them to go everywhere in superior numbers so the "expensive and better units" of that other race will simply be overrun. We see this problem clearly when we compare SC2 to its predecessor and look at what has changed. This isnt the only example of where Blizzard "did too much" and many of the bad apples come from the general game "improvements" of SC2 over BW and not the racial design. Unlimited unit selection, forced super clumped movement and production speed boosts coupled with a higher economy all lead to too many units on the battlefield to the point where quality of a unit doesnt matter anymore and reproduction capability becomes very very VERY important. Agreed. Though this is also a question of income/action ratio. (imagine very active units like hellions and mutas when the income would be halfed --> their value would go through the roof) Basically some racial identities (superswarmy zerg, superdefensive Terran) is what makes it so hard to get a metagame inwhich you can actually deal blows to an opponent. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On January 06 2013 19:49 Big J wrote: Agreed. Though this is also a question of income/action ratio. (imagine very active units like hellions and mutas when the income would be halfed --> their value would go through the roof) Basically some racial identities (superswarmy zerg, superdefensive Terran) is what makes it so hard to get a metagame inwhich you can actually deal blows to an opponent. The problem is that with super dense massive numbers of units you cant have super high damage attacks that really one-shot many units ... stuff like the Siege Tank or Reaver in BW. The same restriction - although in reverse order - probably applies to the thing you pointed out: super mobile units in a game with few units on the battlefield. Personally I dont think the "super mobile" way of doing things look that awesome (because as a spectator you have to be able to follow the battle) AND they have a much higher requirement on the controlling skill (the APM) of the user. With a slower game with more awkward movement system and limited unit control such as in BW the gap between people at the top and the bottom of the ladder probably isnt that big and the true skill difference also comes from the right strategic decisions of when to expand and when to attack. A BW pro could get maybe an extra 10% efficiency out of his Mutalisks or Carriers through micro, but an SC2 pro can get maybe an extra 50% more efficiency out of lack of micro from the opposing player when he rolls in his Banelings and good Forcefield and Blink control are practically REQUIRED to make Stalkers work in a straight up battle against a Zerg army in SC2. This "amount of active control required" is really important in game design and putting too much of it into the game makes it useless (=bad) for people who dont spend 3-4 hours every day practicing to become perfect or at least not to lose their skill. Thus it is my firm belief that SC2 has TOO MUCH STUFF and that this is one of the reasons why the game sucks for casuals who just want to play to have a good time. The whole "activatable units" thing in SC2 is geared totally towards pros and the customers who should be critical of it are defending this in the belief that you cant have fun without activated abilities. SC2 is designed solely for 1v1 pro gaming and BW was awesome at 8 people FFA as well. | ||
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CrtBalorda
Slovenia704 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3408 Posts
MULE: Scrappy Terran, don't really care about the expense, but just carelessly mines the planet dry for resources. They are usually lower on bases than others, due to low map control and being very reluctant to turtling, this works well with, as soon as they get a new defensive perimeter (a new expansion,) they wanna catch up as soon as they can and this is done by the MULE. Recall is another of such abilities, the Protoss race is very short on warriors and is in dire need to preserve everyone of them. They are also a nomad people, that live very scattered out from each other, so when a sector is in need of help, this is a great tool to summon reinforcements. The Creep Tumor that helps expand creep, enveloping entire planets, The Zerg is a race that always look for species to munch off of. They devour everything in their path, evolving themselves, using them for hosts etc. There are also others such as Medivacs/Banshees creating small hit squads that need to do hero missions for this inferior race to have a chance and of course the iconic Siege Tank to defend points at home and set up contains to make cost efficient trades with heavy hitting explosives. Terran units should have strengths as well as weaknesses, to make them feel like the inferior race, but it is the combination of setting up different set of strengths and abusing such mechanics that should give you wins using the Terran race. To master the Protoss race, you should be tenacious using spell casters and finding neat ways to out-maneuver your opponents to have ridiculous cost efficiency ie. Force Field donuts, Storm Drops, Force Fieldings ramps killing off stuff in the main, warping in stuff everywhere, all these little things that are by some, considered gimmicks. When I think of Protoss, there is a huge difference between low economy Protoss and high economy Protoss. The low economy is mostly the one I mentioned above, the other is insane huge fleets and colossi army compositions, with such cost efficiency that the opponent had wished he had done something to the economy or tech of the Protoss. Zerg is the map control race, with loads of fast units, big in numbers, in the open, it's Zergs court, but in smaller chokes, definitely not. There are many ways of playing Zerg, you can be low tier hyper aggressive, basically abusing your map control to full effect and using the information you have against the opponents, the opponent has no idea, is he mustering up units to come get me, or is something else lurking. The doubt is the biggest fear and with Mutas and constant ling run byes, how can you play other than defensive. Another way you might play it, is a turtle style. Think of a beehive, just doing your thing, gathering resources, living your colony. But then once the nest gets rattled all hell is broke lose and you will feel the full fury of the swarm. To fully master the swarm you must know how to fully exploit the strength of numbers by the use of Nydus Wurms, Overlord drops, Sacrificial units/Neural->If I trade one for one and I have more, I win; This is a much cooler way of displaying strength in numbers in comparison to units that just make more units: Infestor/Swarm Host/Broodlord. [Honestly I love the Queen/Spine Crawler/Infestor/Broodlord synergy, if skill was shown in position, instead of spawn infested terran click rate.] | ||
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TsGBruzze
Sweden1190 Posts
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Cuce
Turkey1127 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On January 06 2013 21:08 ejozl wrote: There are some things that are done really well and captures the feeling of the race, here are some examples: MULE: Scrappy Terran, don't really care about the expense, but just carelessly mines the planet dry for resources. They are usually lower on bases than others, due to low map control and being very reluctant to turtling, this works well with, as soon as they get a new defensive perimeter (a new expansion,) they wanna catch up as soon as they can and this is done by the MULE. Recall is another of such abilities, the Protoss race is very short on warriors and is in dire need to preserve everyone of them. They are also a nomad people, that live very scattered out from each other, so when a sector is in need of help, this is a great tool to summon reinforcements. The Creep Tumor that helps expand creep, enveloping entire planets, The Zerg is a race that always look for species to munch off of. They devour everything in their path, evolving themselves, using them for hosts etc. There are also others such as Medivacs/Banshees creating small hit squads that need to do hero missions for this inferior race to have a chance and of course the iconic Siege Tank to defend points at home and set up contains to make cost efficient trades with heavy hitting explosives. Terran units should have strengths as well as weaknesses, to make them feel like the inferior race, but it is the combination of setting up different set of strengths and abusing such mechanics that should give you wins using the Terran race. To master the Protoss race, you should be tenacious using spell casters and finding neat ways to out-maneuver your opponents to have ridiculous cost efficiency ie. Force Field donuts, Storm Drops, Force Fieldings ramps killing off stuff in the main, warping in stuff everywhere, all these little things that are by some, considered gimmicks. When I think of Protoss, there is a huge difference between low economy Protoss and high economy Protoss. The low economy is mostly the one I mentioned above, the other is insane huge fleets and colossi army compositions, with such cost efficiency that the opponent had wished he had done something to the economy or tech of the Protoss. Zerg is the map control race, with loads of fast units, big in numbers, in the open, it's Zergs court, but in smaller chokes, definitely not. There are many ways of playing Zerg, you can be low tier hyper aggressive, basically abusing your map control to full effect and using the information you have against the opponents, the opponent has no idea, is he mustering up units to come get me, or is something else lurking. The doubt is the biggest fear and with Mutas and constant ling run byes, how can you play other than defensive. Another way you might play it, is a turtle style. Think of a beehive, just doing your thing, gathering resources, living your colony. But then once the nest gets rattled all hell is broke lose and you will feel the full fury of the swarm. To fully master the swarm you must know how to fully exploit the strength of numbers by the use of Nydus Wurms, Overlord drops, Sacrificial units/Neural->If I trade one for one and I have more, I win; This is a much cooler way of displaying strength in numbers in comparison to units that just make more units: Infestor/Swarm Host/Broodlord. [Honestly I love the Queen/Spine Crawler/Infestor/Broodlord synergy, if skill was shown in position, instead of spawn infested terran click rate.] More or less all you say about stuff being "in character for the race" is true, but sadly that is the only good thing to be said about them. The MULE gives Terrans an early boost in economy ... which they NEED to keep up with Warp Gate and Zerg extra hatcheries plus Queens finishing. Warp Gate is a cool and stylish reinforcement tool, BUT it takes out all positional play, because the units are built inside your base and thus there is no more front to defend. The same can basically be said about Blink. Creep tumors spread the map in creep and thus basically give Zerg who master the art of spreading them a map hack and remove the need to scout. your enemy. Terrans kinda "had to" get the Sensor tower to make up for this, but it takes out skill from the game. The price for these fun game mechanics is too high IMO and they make the game too easy to play and too fast and chief among them are the stylish production speed boosts ... which are again in character, but totally ruin the game with too many units. Sadly too few people try to look for the downside to "new stuff" ... EDIT: I just watched TLO "toy" with a clearly lesser opponent (Protoss) in the ZOTAC cup by using lots of Nydus worms. This super-mobility is pretty bad when it is only available to one race. Protoss have their own breed of it, but Terrans dont and this is going too far in the "different race design" concept. | ||
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Gurk92
7 Posts
On January 06 2013 06:55 decado90 wrote: They buffed the living shit out of hydras. Yet, they need more buffs. Your argument is invalid. On January 06 2013 19:35 Big-t wrote: T needs better/more space control, mines and tanks are by far not enough Z remove infestor and BL P remove warp tech and FFs => buff or new gate way units Zerg needs better AA. I don't wanna play boring games that will consist on always trying to end the game before a deathball hits(Skytoss, currently the unstoppable force in HoTS). The second time Protoss gets a deathball army, remember Mothership toilet? Zerg has only had the infestor+bl, but it's not impossible to avoid which in the Protoss case, it almost is. | ||
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Champi
1422 Posts
i dont feel like my units are worth their cost at all. and every time i lose something that costs gas like a collosus or a sentry im hating life because my disadvantage becomes HUGE since my warpgate units are so weak without their support. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
On January 06 2013 21:06 CrtBalorda wrote: It doesnt matter how cool and diverse the races are if the game is badly designed to begin with. actually the the race design is the game design Terran=the race of the compact Protoss= the race of the few but strong Zerg= the race of the many but weak | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On January 06 2013 23:29 Champi wrote: i agree with the OP for sure. Protoss just isnt the race i was addicted to in BW. i dont feel like my units are worth their cost at all. and every time i lose something that costs gas like a collosus or a sentry im hating life because my disadvantage becomes HUGE since my warpgate units are so weak without their support. taking the words out of my mouth. Hate beeing forced to get sentries, and still getting surrounded by speedlings due to the inability to get mapcontrol, thus never knowing if it is riskfree to move out. Imho Protoss just doesn't go well with upgrades, compared to Terran or Zerg. | ||
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
On January 06 2013 23:58 Garmer wrote: actually the the race design is the game design Terran=the race of the compact Protoss= the race of the few but strong Zerg= the race of the many but weak Simple yet precise | ||
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algue
France1436 Posts
If DB says "Zerg is now the cost efficient race of the game and protoss is the weak but numerous race" I'm fine with it as long as they really implement it in the game. At the moment the only sign of Blizzards racial philosophy that I can remember is their Race Overview (http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/game/guide/race-overview) where they clearly say that zerg is weak and numerous and protoss are few but powerful. And weirdly enough in HotS : - they give the swarm host and the viper to the zerg army, 2 cost effective units. - They give the oracle, a fast and weak unit, to the protoss army - But they also give a slow and strong unit, the tempest. To summarize, they try to make zerg become the cost efficient race and they try to make protoss a bit more mobile and fragile but not too much... I wish blizzard cool go back to the zerg and protoss roots  (Imo the terran race personnality is good) | ||
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