On June 22 2012 04:38 Cereb wrote: God I miss my days in War3 where it was common ettique among pro players not to complain about balance (Of course with a few exceptions but those were looked down upon). It gave everyone else something to look up to. It created this image that pros don't think balance, they think solutions.
I dunno why everyone has gotten so whiny in SC2 TT. There has litterally never been a periode where a big chunck of pros (+part of community, of course) didn't cry imba on the behalf of their race. First Zerg, then Toss and now even the Terrans have fallen.
MKP in particular is a little disappointing. Been watching his games, and amazing as they are, I get kinda frustrated watching how often he gets killed by a cheese just cause he tries to be greedy too often, and people have figured this out. Watching Symbol actually go one base vs him on Entombed should let him know it's time to play abit safer I feel :p He definitely has the skill to play safe and win.
Other than that, great interviews
The mentality behind his getting greedy is the fact that Zerg cannot be punished early game anymore because of the recent patch buffs.
Therefore, if Terran is unable to pressure Zerg, the only other option is to try and keep up with them in a macro game. And of course this is exploitable and appears "greedy", but it's the only way to win now against a half decent Zerg player.
That's why the patch was dumb - it took away one Terran's only TvZ advantages between the early game and the extended late game. Now, Terran has to try and get to the extended late game as fast as possible, but in the meantime Zerg has a 20 minute timing window to kill Terran. It's kind of sad.
And if MKP has only a 10% winrate doing that, something is wrong indeed.
I think violet got the closest to the problem in tvz right now. The terrans that do fine are the ones that just don't care about the 6 queens. While the zerg just has nothing in response to banshees or drops of any kind. I am sure terrans will find a solution again, that won't end up into being do or die. But i kinda fear that this time it will be to late and we will end up getting zerged up by Blizzard. In other words they buff us needlessly and we will be lazy like a zerg and won't bother finding new ways.
People always way undervalue the importance of mindgames and preparation in the GSL, general strength of the player/race is not as important as it is in a tournament where you can't prepare for an specific opponent, the GSL is when the better players shine through fighting against all odds, that and SuhoSin, Leenock and Sniper played very very badly(meh "opinionated", this is factual)
On June 22 2012 06:59 Cereb wrote: The fact that I'm getting more balance complaints as a respons to me being sad and tired of the pro's of every race in SC2 complaining about balance is kinda saddening.
Blizzard is definitely not a bunch of incompetent fools. Making the most balanced and successful RTS games of all time, with the second place not even being close to their ability to make amazing games. War3 pros definitely complained alot less. I followed that scene for many many years. Am I not allowed to comment on MKP's play? Is this right reserved for Terran players talking about how horrible every Zerg player who loses are? I am not talking about this 10% winrate that he apparantly has in practice unlike his tournament games. I just wish he wouldn't.
I long for the day when this game will no longer be patched. Maybe then people will feel that their complaints are fruitless unlike these times where people are acting like children begging their daddy (Blizzard) for stuff all the bloody time.
That's so untrue. UD and NE complained for years about tanks/towers which on a lot of maps was an unbeatable strat when plaid right. It eventually got patched.
Same thing about HU tower-rush.
Do you remember mass dryads back at the time they only were 40xp and that the tree of life buildtime was ridiculously low ? It got patched as well.
Also mass druid of the talons back when Orc SW were not resistant to cyclone was way too strong : all Orcs complained about it and it got patched.
Also gnollwood was considerd as a freewin for Orc, and LT a freewin for HU. That mattered a lot since War3 had only ~6-7 maps in its pool.
Plus, 80% of all the comment section of both replayers.com and wcreplays.com consisted in balance complains.
Everybody complained about balance in War3. Even when the game was dying, people were still complaining about balance, about the blademaster more precisely, and the fact that Orc was winning 3/4 of the tournaments.
You do make alot of good points. Unfortunately, people definitely complained alot then too, but I still feel like the actual pro players would be much more silent on the balance issue. Alot of them had adopted the "I don't comment/think about balance" kind of attitude.
But regardless of whether that's right or wrong (as it is only my perception), I guess it didn't really do much to decrease the amount of balance complaint from the regular player base, but I still find it admirable and nice that many pros stayed clear of balance talk.
I can't really force pro's to not talk about it, but I surely have alot of respect for those who are able to simply play with the tools they are given without having to complain about these publicly. We already have more than enough fuel on that particular fire without their remarks.
On a side note: They nerfed tower rushes?! When was this ? What a treat, I hated those! hehe
Also that is very true CakeSauc3. Good points! But I still feel stuff like failing to wall in scan or scout and also going for CC first in many many games is just taking it abit too far...As we saw in Taeja's games today vs Leenoch - If you have excellent building placement you can pretty much nolify those early game roach bane attacks which I would love to see more of from MKP just cause he effing smashes 95% of his opponents once he survives the early game attacks
On June 22 2012 06:59 Cereb wrote: The fact that I'm getting more balance complaints as a respons to me being sad and tired of the pro's of every race in SC2 complaining about balance is kinda saddening.
Blizzard is definitely not a bunch of incompetent fools. Making the most balanced and successful RTS games of all time, with the second place not even being close to their ability to make amazing games. War3 pros definitely complained alot less. I followed that scene for many many years. Am I not allowed to comment on MKP's play? Is this right reserved for Terran players talking about how horrible every Zerg player who loses are? I am not talking about this 10% winrate that he apparantly has in practice unlike his tournament games. I just wish he wouldn't.
I long for the day when this game will no longer be patched. Maybe then people will feel that their complaints are fruitless unlike these times where people are acting like children begging their daddy (Blizzard) for stuff all the bloody time.
That's so untrue. UD and NE complained for years about tanks/towers which on a lot of maps was an unbeatable strat when plaid right. It eventually got patched.
Same thing about HU tower-rush.
Do you remember mass dryads back at the time they only were 40xp and that the tree of life buildtime was ridiculously low ? It got patched as well.
Also mass druid of the talons back when Orc SW were not resistant to cyclone was way too strong : all Orcs complained about it and it got patched.
Also gnollwood was considerd as a freewin for Orc, and LT a freewin for HU. That mattered a lot since War3 had only ~6-7 maps in its pool.
Plus, 80% of all the comment section of both replayers.com and wcreplays.com consisted in balance complains.
Everybody complained about balance in War3. Even when the game was dying, people were still complaining about balance, about the blademaster more precisely, and the fact that Orc was winning 3/4 of the tournaments.
You do make alot of good points. Unfortunately, people definitely complained alot then too, but I still feel like the actual pro players would be much more silent on the balance issue. Alot of them had adopted the "I don't comment/think about balance" kind of attitude.
But regardless of whether that's right or wrong (as it is only my perception), I guess it didn't really do much to decrease the amount of balance complaint from the regular player base, but I still find it admirable and nice that many pros stayed clear of balance talk.
I can't really force pro's to not talk about it, but I surely have alot of respect for those who are able to simply play with the tools they are given without having to complain about these publicly. We already have more than enough fuel on that particular fire without their remarks.
On a side note: They nerfed tower rushes?! When was this ? What a treat, I hated those! hehe
Also that is very true CakeSauc3. Good points! But I still feel stuff like failing to wall in scan or scout and also going for CC first in many many games is just taking it abit too far...As we saw in Taeja's games today vs Leenoch - If you have excellent building placement you can pretty much nolify those early game roach bane attacks which I would love to see more of from MKP just cause he effing smashes 95% of his opponents once he survives the early game attacks
The only people who SHOULD be discussing balance is the pros. It is their livelihood, and a balanced game that rewards skill regardless of race is of primary importance, not the misplaced respect you have for people who are 'above' balance discussion. If there is an imbalance, it SHOULD be discussed. Balance discussion is only taboo because there are idiots in gold and plat league who are clueless and complain about things that are perfectly fine. There is certainly nothing wrong with it when done by professionals who understand the game at a much deeper level.
On June 22 2012 06:59 Cereb wrote: The fact that I'm getting more balance complaints as a respons to me being sad and tired of the pro's of every race in SC2 complaining about balance is kinda saddening.
Blizzard is definitely not a bunch of incompetent fools. Making the most balanced and successful RTS games of all time, with the second place not even being close to their ability to make amazing games. War3 pros definitely complained alot less. I followed that scene for many many years. Am I not allowed to comment on MKP's play? Is this right reserved for Terran players talking about how horrible every Zerg player who loses are? I am not talking about this 10% winrate that he apparantly has in practice unlike his tournament games. I just wish he wouldn't.
I long for the day when this game will no longer be patched. Maybe then people will feel that their complaints are fruitless unlike these times where people are acting like children begging their daddy (Blizzard) for stuff all the bloody time.
If Blizzard didn't feel the need to push out a patch without testing it in depth and screw over the professional players maybe they wouldn't have to complain about it. Everyone is saying " lol no need to patch it let the terrans figure it out "
Why did we need the patch in the first place if balance should not be changed via patches, we should have let the zergs " figure it out " instead. People defending this situation just blows my mind. I guess It's okay to force one race to adapt to a patch but not the other ones. Same shit happened with the Blue Flame nerf because Zergs didn't use building walls and sim city like other races to prevent the damage, they started doing it after the nerf already happened.
The Snipe nerf is just as silly. Terran has been constantly getting nerfed over time while Zerg has been buffed ( fungal patch, now this ) and now It's finally been tipped over the edge of ridiculousness where Zerg is favored in all phases of the game in ZvT.
On June 22 2012 09:58 Itsmedudeman wrote: Let's just bring back steppes of war.
You could also think of it this way, pros put their careers and livelihood at risk by playing esports in general, and when you have a patch as game changing as the queen range buff suddenly come out of nowhere without warning forcing you to rethink your entire playstyle, I would get pretty mad and whine all the time too. This is why I get mad at the people that just say "LOL TERRAN LEARN TO PLAY". Tell that to the korean pros who took the risk of doing esports as their career and tell them to learn to play. The buffs literally came out of nowhere with no input from any of the pros, changed the metagame entirely and have even made it to the point to where terrans cannot even compete at the same level as protoss and zerg for a month and people just say they have no right to complain and they should just "figure things out over time"? If this was any other sport everyone would be asking for a change in management but since this is SC2, people are just happy about terran getting "justice" .
On June 22 2012 06:59 Cereb wrote: The fact that I'm getting more balance complaints as a respons to me being sad and tired of the pro's of every race in SC2 complaining about balance is kinda saddening.
Blizzard is definitely not a bunch of incompetent fools. Making the most balanced and successful RTS games of all time, with the second place not even being close to their ability to make amazing games. War3 pros definitely complained alot less. I followed that scene for many many years. Am I not allowed to comment on MKP's play? Is this right reserved for Terran players talking about how horrible every Zerg player who loses are? I am not talking about this 10% winrate that he apparantly has in practice unlike his tournament games. I just wish he wouldn't.
I long for the day when this game will no longer be patched. Maybe then people will feel that their complaints are fruitless unlike these times where people are acting like children begging their daddy (Blizzard) for stuff all the bloody time.
That's so untrue. UD and NE complained for years about tanks/towers which on a lot of maps was an unbeatable strat when plaid right. It eventually got patched.
Same thing about HU tower-rush.
Do you remember mass dryads back at the time they only were 40xp and that the tree of life buildtime was ridiculously low ? It got patched as well.
Also mass druid of the talons back when Orc SW were not resistant to cyclone was way too strong : all Orcs complained about it and it got patched.
Also gnollwood was considerd as a freewin for Orc, and LT a freewin for HU. That mattered a lot since War3 had only ~6-7 maps in its pool.
Plus, 80% of all the comment section of both replayers.com and wcreplays.com consisted in balance complains.
Everybody complained about balance in War3. Even when the game was dying, people were still complaining about balance, about the blademaster more precisely, and the fact that Orc was winning 3/4 of the tournaments.
You do make alot of good points. Unfortunately, people definitely complained alot then too, but I still feel like the actual pro players would be much more silent on the balance issue. Alot of them had adopted the "I don't comment/think about balance" kind of attitude.
But regardless of whether that's right or wrong (as it is only my perception), I guess it didn't really do much to decrease the amount of balance complaint from the regular player base, but I still find it admirable and nice that many pros stayed clear of balance talk.
I can't really force pro's to not talk about it, but I surely have alot of respect for those who are able to simply play with the tools they are given without having to complain about these publicly. We already have more than enough fuel on that particular fire without their remarks.
On a side note: They nerfed tower rushes?! When was this ? What a treat, I hated those! hehe
Also that is very true CakeSauc3. Good points! But I still feel stuff like failing to wall in scan or scout and also going for CC first in many many games is just taking it abit too far...As we saw in Taeja's games today vs Leenoch - If you have excellent building placement you can pretty much nolify those early game roach bane attacks which I would love to see more of from MKP just cause he effing smashes 95% of his opponents once he survives the early game attacks
The only people who SHOULD be discussing balance is the pros. It is their livelihood, and a balanced game that rewards skill regardless of race is of primary importance, not the misplaced respect you have for people who are 'above' balance discussion. If there is an imbalance, it SHOULD be discussed. Balance discussion is only taboo because there are idiots in gold and plat league who are clueless and complain about things that are perfectly fine. There is certainly nothing wrong with it when done by professionals who understand the game at a much deeper level.
There are idiots among pros that do it too, watch sotg 71.
I think Violet hit the nail on the head. Terran are so worried about the queens that they aren't playing like they should/usually would.
On the flip side of things, I believe the queen patch helped to stabilize ZvZ immensely (sorry Terran, the world doesn't revolve around you :/) which is why he prefers mirror matchups over vT.
On June 22 2012 06:59 Cereb wrote: The fact that I'm getting more balance complaints as a respons to me being sad and tired of the pro's of every race in SC2 complaining about balance is kinda saddening.
Blizzard is definitely not a bunch of incompetent fools. Making the most balanced and successful RTS games of all time, with the second place not even being close to their ability to make amazing games. War3 pros definitely complained alot less. I followed that scene for many many years. Am I not allowed to comment on MKP's play? Is this right reserved for Terran players talking about how horrible every Zerg player who loses are? I am not talking about this 10% winrate that he apparantly has in practice unlike his tournament games. I just wish he wouldn't.
I long for the day when this game will no longer be patched. Maybe then people will feel that their complaints are fruitless unlike these times where people are acting like children begging their daddy (Blizzard) for stuff all the bloody time.
That's so untrue. UD and NE complained for years about tanks/towers which on a lot of maps was an unbeatable strat when plaid right. It eventually got patched.
Same thing about HU tower-rush.
Do you remember mass dryads back at the time they only were 40xp and that the tree of life buildtime was ridiculously low ? It got patched as well.
Also mass druid of the talons back when Orc SW were not resistant to cyclone was way too strong : all Orcs complained about it and it got patched.
Also gnollwood was considerd as a freewin for Orc, and LT a freewin for HU. That mattered a lot since War3 had only ~6-7 maps in its pool.
Plus, 80% of all the comment section of both replayers.com and wcreplays.com consisted in balance complains.
Everybody complained about balance in War3. Even when the game was dying, people were still complaining about balance, about the blademaster more precisely, and the fact that Orc was winning 3/4 of the tournaments.
You do make alot of good points. Unfortunately, people definitely complained alot then too, but I still feel like the actual pro players would be much more silent on the balance issue. Alot of them had adopted the "I don't comment/think about balance" kind of attitude.
But regardless of whether that's right or wrong (as it is only my perception), I guess it didn't really do much to decrease the amount of balance complaint from the regular player base, but I still find it admirable and nice that many pros stayed clear of balance talk.
I can't really force pro's to not talk about it, but I surely have alot of respect for those who are able to simply play with the tools they are given without having to complain about these publicly. We already have more than enough fuel on that particular fire without their remarks.
On a side note: They nerfed tower rushes?! When was this ? What a treat, I hated those! hehe
Also that is very true CakeSauc3. Good points! But I still feel stuff like failing to wall in scan or scout and also going for CC first in many many games is just taking it abit too far...As we saw in Taeja's games today vs Leenoch - If you have excellent building placement you can pretty much nolify those early game roach bane attacks which I would love to see more of from MKP just cause he effing smashes 95% of his opponents once he survives the early game attacks
It is hard to adopt that kind of attitude, if blizzard is so eager (and daring) with patching. :-/
If anyone can find a breakthrough, it'd be the SlayerS Terran roster. Doesn't guarantee anything though.
On June 21 2012 21:51 Dodgin wrote: I wonder how many S class Terran players opinions it takes to get a Queen buff reverted.
Blizzard believes that all pro players are so biased, its barely worth listening to them, regardless of game knowledge. Almost all of the balance "discussions" are internal.
2:30
I exaggerated slightly, but listening to his entire opinion on community polling for balance makes it appear that they really don't want input on what they're doing, regardless of skill tier.
Ryung: "But I haven't played alot of TvZ yet, yet I feel zerg is so strong in NA bnet, that's enough to prove that the race is the most unbalanced in history. But conversely, if someone can make a good show in vZ, he would be a big star. I was thinking that way too. During this difficult times if you make a break through you will definitely leave a large print (image) for everyone. I also talk about it with my team. If we can find some new strategy before the Ro16 I think I can make a breakthrough."
what the fuck? zerg is so imbalanced yet he hopes to make a "breakthrough" in ro16 already (if tvz)? stop the fucking whining already. fucking hell so sick of it
On June 30 2012 04:52 PredY wrote: Ryung: "But I haven't played alot of TvZ yet, yet I feel zerg is so strong in NA bnet, that's enough to prove that the race is the most unbalanced in history. But conversely, if someone can make a good show in vZ, he would be a big star. I was thinking that way too. During this difficult times if you make a break through you will definitely leave a large print (image) for everyone. I also talk about it with my team. If we can find some new strategy before the Ro16 I think I can make a breakthrough."
what the fuck? zerg is so imbalanced yet he hopes to make a "breakthrough" in ro16 already (if tvz)? stop the fucking whining already. fucking hell so sick of it
I read and reread and reread your comment. I have no idea what you're trying to say.
EPT
.
