Edit due to MLG Winter So, I really have to update this post, due to what happened at MLG. MLG has shown us, that not only ST_Legend is a good observer. The guy that does the observing on the central stream is doing a great job. BUT: Any subscriber will notice, that the observer on the alternative streams are just terrible. A few points to prove my point :D :
1. Missing a ton of action (not really on the topic, but still obvious) 2. Camera centration is terrible, most of the action is happening in the corners
3. Healthbars are on when selected, but the observer is lacking game sense. i.e. we have seen a ton of TvP, in which almost always there's pressure on the gates of the terran base. These fights include bunkers. Why would you not show bunker hp? Why would you not show hp of battlecruisers? Why would you not show hp of Nexi being attacked by drops? Why would you not show energy of HT's?
I think the essence of this thread is, that if there's a good observer, Healthbars on selected is the optimum, but if the observer isn't as good as Legend, they should be always on!
Please MLG, activate Healthbars or get better observers!
EDIT: So my first conclusion to your reactions is, that most of the people see my point and it is annoying to not have the information that could easily delivered by turning Healthbars on. Although there are some cons:
1. In Broodwar there werent Healthbars either...... OK, along time ago we used to play football with a brown leather ball on wooden goals
2. ST_Legend is doing a great job with Healthbars selected. I agree to this, he's doing an awesome job and everyone should observe like him, BUT most of the casters dont have a seperate observer and even if they had one he wouldn't be ST_Legend.
3. Most of the Viewers are casual viewers who would dislike to see healthbars rushing at each other in battle. My reply to this is, that people watch the games because of the competitive aspect of it. That is why people have followed sports since forever and i dont think that asthetics (which are important no doubt) are important enough to decline such a big load of information on who's winning.
Dear TL,
this is my first thread here, i'm lurking for a long time, but I really need to ask you a question.
Why on earth are most of the casters disabling healthbars?
There is one reason i can think off why you would choose healthbars off: Looks better with healthbars off but what the hell? Who cares, most of us are even playing Starcraft on low settings and i dont think that there are oh so many people watching the games because it looks so nice.
I just watched Sheth vs Killer in MLG NA qualifier, 28 Infestors vs 15 infestors, and the casters are only showing the energy on half of killers Infestors. Noone was able to say whos winning. Solution: Turn Healthbars on, it will help in any Mirrormatch to see whos winning micro wars.
Every lategame scenario involves highhp Units, you cant tell whos winning the fight unless you can see the hp bars. I even started watching GOM.tv with korean commentators because they always have the healthbars displayed....... Cmon Tastosis i love you but i NEED MY HEALTHBARS, I just want the information!!!!
So why would you turn them off?
Final Question: What does TL think about this?
Poll: Do you prefer Healthbars off or Healthbars on in broadcasted games?
Healthbars on (978)
79%
Healthbars off (255)
21%
1233 total votes
Your vote: Do you prefer Healthbars off or Healthbars on in broadcasted games?
I have been thinking about making a thread like this for a while, guess I won't have to.
I voted for healthbars on, information is important. that's why we have production/unit tabs. Not being able to see the health or energy especially of the armies in a big fight is rather annoying.
Health bars set to selected is best if the observer is talented, a la ST Legend. If the observer is bad, then health bars on is the next best. Off completely is never good.
Definitely on, having the health bars of just denies me so much information I feel. If health bars are always on you can see how close a dropship was to getting away or not. For example.
I like them on as well, it is a lot better for more details on whos really winning and whos not. Say a terran player with a bunch of totally red stimmed out bio, you'd never know from viewer point he wasnt doing good.
On February 19 2012 10:15 Gheed wrote: Health bars set to selected is best if the observer is talented, a la ST Legend. If the observer is bad, then health bars on is the next best. Off completely is never good.
I agree with this. ST Legend does a really good job of highlighting all of the important health bars but most observers won't do as well.
But outside of engagements, the health bars aren't really necessary and detract from the look of the game. I think that showing health bars should be a responsibility of the observer, he can decide when it's important to have that information displayed.
A LARGE LARGE LARGE part of any viewing audience and almost always the majority is the casual fan. The casual fan can not read the info given by that many health bars. Only higher level players or hardcore viewers will be able to pull info off of it.
Also mainly with Zerg you end up seeing a swarm of health bars, not units, which looks silly.
Edit: Just to clarify however, selected is the best. There is times where they should be flicked on, and a good observer will know what to select or in a pinch just just hit alt.
Always on please I hate it when it's off even in GSL and they have by far the best observer out of any tournament but there's still battles where I wish it was on and it isn't.
On February 19 2012 10:19 Diamond wrote: A LARGE LARGE LARGE part of any viewing audience and almost always the majority is the casual fan. The casual fan can not read the info given by that many health bars. Only higher level players or hardcore viewers will be able to pull info off of it.
Also mainly with Zerg you end up seeing a swarm of health bars, not units, which looks silly.
I'm not going to disagree that most people are stupid, but I think even stupid people can figure out that the side with more red bars is losing.
So much happens in the early game, especially in mirror matchups. A lot of decision making by both players revolves around those HP bars. Which zergling took the first hit? That SCV building a bunker there - How much life does it have left? 4 stalkers vs 4 stalkers, which ones are damaged? How do the players choose to micro the damaged ones?
there is SO MUCH GOING ON THERE. To have healthbars off would leave us all either clueless, or totally reliant on caster commentary.... And lets face it, even Tastosis misses stuff when they are joking around. I'd rather rely on my eyes.
Besides the bars are so fucking tiny. they don't cover up anything at all, or else they wouldn't be useful while playing.
Not having the health bars or the info tabs on makes things more exciting for me. I never get that moment anymore where after 8-12 minutes of crazy, constant battle/harass there are suddenly 12 broodlords or carriers or BC's on the field like I did in BW when those typically took you by surprise.
I like them on when I play but I don't want them on when I'm watching a professional match - they're distracting and clunky and block everything. It's almost always obvious what's going on anyway, unless you're extremely anal or just a casual player you probably don't need them.
i hate it when they turn the healthbars off, there is no reason to do it. None. But if you leave them on it is so much better, because even the best caster misses tons of stuff you could see on your own, you can judge micro, you can judge if the injects are spot on if the spellcasters were used efficiently and the list goes on forever.
I understand the argument against health bars that only l33t ppl really need them... zzzz... but every poll I've EVER seen has been overwhelmingly agreeing that they should be on. Whenever streamers have asked in tournaments b4 if the audience wants them on or off it is a guaranteed response of ON. Just sayin, it is much easier to follow correctly what's going on and who is winning the fights more accurately. Every player plays with them on because it's easier to see the truth of the game.
Edit: If casters or cameramen could just select the units during the fight that mattered and select those to show everyone that would be the best option IMO, but we all know that actually happens .. well, almost never.
Especially in zergling vs zergling battles or something like that, it makes it hard to see the zerglings and the green health bars just take up the entire battle. I think it would be better if there was some kinda modification in order to make the health bars smaller based on the unit size. It would make it easier for the viewer to see whats going on and be benefical to the players so they can as well see what is happening. Obviously im just spit balling here. I'm pretty sure its against the terms of use to even do that in the first place. It makes me wonder why blizzard would restrict such things that would be helpful to the tournament. I know that they support some mods, such as the stronger team color mod. So maybe it wouldn't be against the ToS to create a mod that would make the health bars look smaller based on which unit it is representing.
without hp bars, how can you tell what damage was done during an exchange in which everything hasnt died... how can u feel the excitement as a race between killing a cc/nexus vs killing off the units targeting it cloaked banshee running away from scan!!!! medivacs picking up and surviving by 1 stalker hit!!!!
so many other countless things id like to know when the hp bars are off i feel naked might as well have no production tab while youre at it
I prefer to have the healthbars off but have the observer either select key units and buildings during/after battles, or else use alt for the same purpose. As far as I'm concerned, if you're not getting the information you need with the healthbars not always displayed, it's something the observer should be working on...just turning them on all the time adds unnecessary clutter imo and makes the game a lot uglier for newer viewers, and I don't think it's that necessary.
There definitely is a third option which you don't seem to include. Which is that you should have health bars off by default, but show them when they are relevant. This includes things like battles, or just from time to time looking at the energy of a nexus, or units, or to check how the health/shields are on an idle army.
Turning on health bars ALL the time is just completely unnecessary, and just makes the stream very aesthetically displeasing. And turning off health bars ALL the time would obviously limit you very much on your understanding of what is going on.
Aside from laziness of the caster, I can't see why you'd accept either one of the extremes.
I know some of you have no appreciation of how things look, and seem content with viewing health bars, low graphics, stronger team colors on, but that is not very attractive to the more casual viewer. Especially not potential new viewers.
If the UI were improved and health bars were less extremely ugly, then maybe you could leave them on all game..
So much happens in the early game, especially in mirror matchups. A lot of decision making by both players revolves around those HP bars. Which zergling took the first hit? That SCV building a bunker there - How much life does it have left? 4 stalkers vs 4 stalkers, which ones are damaged? How do the players choose to micro the damaged ones?
there is SO MUCH GOING ON THERE. To have healthbars off would leave us all either clueless, or totally reliant on caster commentary.... And lets face it, even Tastosis misses stuff when they are joking around. I'd rather rely on my eyes.
Besides the bars are so fucking tiny. they don't cover up anything at all, or else they wouldn't be useful while playing.
ty for expressing my thoughts in a better language than i could :D
Off is preferable if the person controlling the camera is good (read: pro-gamers only) so they can do it selectively when it's important. If you don't have a dedicated cameraman who is extremely high level, leave them on.
So basically, only the GSL is allowed to leave them off for the most part.
I think casters should be skilled enough to always have the health bars on when it matters, but if they want to have it off sometimes, then that could be fine. All too often I think the casters are not providing the health bars enough though.
If it's just to be only on or only off, I'd much rather prefer only on.
I don't mind, when I'm playing. But I really hate especially when its all death-bally and I can see crap. I like GSL because they only show the health when the caster selects the unit.
I think we needcasters/observers to train to be as good as Legend. He leaves health bars off, but because he always selects exactly the right units, you see the important health bars that matter at the specific moment, and the unimportant ones don't clutter.
turn health bars off and make all casters learn how to observe like legend!
even Tastosis misses stuff when they are joking around. I'd rather rely on my eyes.
but Legend misses nothing. You can watch GSL streams muted and he tells you everything with his cursor.
you forgot the, casters with healthbars on camera man with healthbars off option. Trusting in the casters that they tell you when weak units get sniped. But like other people mentioned saying hardcore players will get informations out of the healthbars, while casuals won't. Someone really into sc2 shouldn't need healtbars to see if weakened units get focus fired, someone even more into sc2 would notice that its not the ai that targets the weakest unit in range, but actually the player does it.
That being said i like the gsl method, the camera man really knows to show you the crucial infos and give you the whole vision of a battle. I don't want to see stats blocking my vision over a battle seeing the stats before the battle is enough. (its not like they randomly change all of a sudden) Also as bonus show of zoom ins, pointing out that he has total map awareness.
So healthbars don't really show me something i don't already know (caster should show the health bars of the army when they are idle not when they are fighting), so healthbars on yes, permanently showing nope.
As for the person wanting glow , go on its not hard to mod this. Just have remodel the healthbars a bit, 2d effects can work in a 3d surrounding. (of course you could mod it onto the textures as well, but that would take effort). But i personally wouldn't like this, also don't like the teamcolor mod making lings look like they are made of play-doh.
I always prefer the health bars to be on. - It shows how close the battles actually are. - - Energy on caster units. - - How badly a player is at macro.
Professional casters leave this off so the target audience may believe the two players have comparable talent, while in reality they are not on the same tier. I REALLY HATE when a battle is commencing and the casters do not leave the production tab on. It helps tell if the upgrades are complete for the confrontation and if they can macro during the battle. Again, make the level of players appear even.
On. There is a reason why people play with health bars on, because it gives you so much information. You can't rely on the casters to give you information you can extract yourself with them on.
Definitely needs to be selected, because 99% of the time health bars are just a hindrance. In Sc2 we have tons of tabs and overlays and everything that takes away absolutely any element of surprise as it is, health bars look ugly and make battles 10x more obvious, and IMO less fun. I don't care to see the health bars of the starting 6 SCVs and Drones. Most of the time health bars are just useless and ugly to casual viewers. With selected the observer can highlight health bars when he wants and be like "OMG that Medivac had 4 health woah that was close!".
Any tourament organizers should ignore the topic creator and the poll created here. It only represents a small fraction of the viewers. The TC even states he thinks most plays with low settings. That is absurdly false.
Selected is always best. and it's up to observer to get it shown right.
Next best is always OFF. Casted games are meant for enjoyment, not learning. You don't need to how exactly it unfolds. You didn't watch BW with health bars on then. You don't need them now. It creates some suspense and tension in a way as well.
Worse is always ON. I play with health bars on but I cannot stomach that crap all over the screen when watching it as a spectator. It feels like shit.
I think there are times that they should be on, like when it is a proxy 2 gate and you are microing zealots. A lot of the time all one play might have more zealots but they are all really hurt and he is really behind. There are other situations like that but I am not really sure if you can turn health bars on and off in game.
On February 19 2012 10:30 L3g3nd_ wrote: I cant stand healthbars being off. One of the most frustrating things as a player, but i can see why casual viewers might prefer them off.
this
i wish at least during small-scale battles where the HP of the army as a whole is important, that observers would hit alt to show HP bars.
I just watched Sheth vs Killer in MLG NA qualifier, 28 Infestors vs 15 infestors, and the casters are only showing the energy on half of killers Infestors. Noone was able to say whos winning. Solution: Turn Healthbars on, it will help in any Mirrormatch to see whos winning micro wars.
The caster is doing a poor job then, select all the infestors.
To me the only correct answer to this is that "selected" mode should be on, and the observer will select relevant units, and if shit is getting too crazy they can hold alt.
So much happens in the early game, especially in mirror matchups. A lot of decision making by both players revolves around those HP bars. Which zergling took the first hit? That SCV building a bunker there - How much life does it have left? 4 stalkers vs 4 stalkers, which ones are damaged? How do the players choose to micro the damaged ones?
there is SO MUCH GOING ON THERE. To have healthbars off would leave us all either clueless, or totally reliant on caster commentary.... And lets face it, even Tastosis misses stuff when they are joking around. I'd rather rely on my eyes.
Besides the bars are so fucking tiny. they don't cover up anything at all, or else they wouldn't be useful while playing.
This. Seriously. First of all, a casual player should still be able to see a unit is low on health and go "damn that could have been sniped" or let's say for the select few who can't understand that, I don't think healthbars takes up much anyway. But they contain a lot of info and I'd hate to not be able to see unit health.
Always on imo. It's nice to see the times when the pros purposefully target-fire on low hp units, and on the opposite side, seeing players micro away the hurt units. It definitely adds to the viewing experience to me!
On February 19 2012 10:19 Diamond wrote: A LARGE LARGE LARGE part of any viewing audience and almost always the majority is the casual fan.
Why would you believe that? I'd consider most people who tune in to SC2 streams to be fans of the game.
Always on for me. It even makes me rage sometimes when there're units being hit and I cannot see their hp due to bad casters. I want all the information I can get and I don't see why a caster would deny this information.
On February 19 2012 11:27 RaiKageRyu wrote: Any tourament organizers should ignore the topic creator and the poll created here. It only represents a small fraction of the viewers. The TC even states he thinks most plays with low settings. That is absurdly false.
Selected is always best. and it's up to observer to get it shown right.
Next best is always OFF. Casted games are meant for enjoyment, not learning. You don't need to how exactly it unfolds. You didn't watch BW with health bars on then. You don't need them now. It creates some suspense and tension in a way as well.
Worse is always ON. I play with health bars on but I cannot stomach that crap all over the screen when watching it as a spectator. It feels like shit.
Lol "I don't agree with the poll so the poll should be ignored. Right.
I personally prefer it on, BUT, when I have friends over and I show them a game, I want the HP bar off. Makes it seem more like a movie/tv show.
Here's what I think can happen as a middle ground. One caster can see HP bar. Other caster's screen doesn't need it - the screen that is shown to the viewers. The caster responsible for technical analysis etc. can see the HP bar and make commentary on micro/energy etc.
Takes a little more effort for those who cast replays - like IPL (since they'd have to have two games running together and time it etc.), but not impossible.
Honestly there aren't many more annoying things in SC2 than having the screen dominated by a bunch of green bars. Yes, there are acceptable times to have them on, but imo I can't stand having "perfect information." A good observer can show the audience all that is required without having to rely on health bars, production tabs, army supply counts, ect. and it increases the excitement.
On February 19 2012 11:43 Champloo wrote: Why would you believe that? I'd consider most people who tune in to SC2 streams to be fans of the game.
Because it's true in every sport ever. The casuals always outweigh the hardcores. It's why Husky has 600k+ subs on Youtube and Day9 has 200k+.
Always on for me. It even makes me rage sometimes when there're units being hit and I cannot see their hp due to bad casters. I want all the information I can get and I don't see why a caster would deny this information.
That's why dedicated observers are needed in major tournaments. Also then you should encourage said caster to work on their obs'ing skills in a polite and constructive manner.
Off. The way units clump up battles look like big clusterfucks with health bars on. If the casters want to point out that a player has over stimmed a group of units or show the energy on a caster unit they can always just select them.
On February 19 2012 11:48 setzer wrote: Honestly there aren't many more annoying things in SC2 than having the screen dominated by a bunch of green bars. Yes, there are acceptable times to have them on, but imo I can't stand having "perfect information." A good observer can show the audience all that is required without having to rely on health bars, production tabs, army supply counts, ect. and it increases the excitement.
So you must want them to never hit D right? If you don't want perfect information, then go play another game really...
I prefer to view SC2 as a dramatic irony. Is dramatic irony bad?
On February 19 2012 10:15 Gheed wrote: Health bars set to selected is best if the observer is talented, a la ST Legend. If the observer is bad, then health bars on is the next best. Off completely is never good.
I much prefer them off because I find I cannot see the battle at all. I feel like I am watching a fight between health bars instead of an actual fight. Health bars get in the way. Especially for streams that I cannot get the highest quality.
When I am playing StarCraft they need to be on so I can see which units to micro more efficiently and which ones to target but when I am watching a stream I want them off, no need to see which ones are almost dead UNLESS it is a small skirmish or like queens versus voidrays.
Of course I play with health bars on, but I find them very distracting in broadcasts, especially when there's a ton of small units like lings, rines, or zealots. You literally can not even see the units because of all the health bars.
I cannot vote until Selected is an option. I agree with the general comments that in a lot of battles you really want it on, but this can be displayed by holding Alt and you most often don't need them otherwise. After an attack is held/fended off, a good observer could highlight the smaller group of units/static defence to show overall damage dealt (to what remains) and otherwise, you don't tend to need it on. Zergling swarms or sometimes large groups marines of marines can just look really messy with them all on all the time and I don't think it's really necessary to deal with, nor does it usually tell you much except whether a group of marines without medivacs have used stim before or not. Most often though, if they were always on, there wouldn't be much mess, so this might still be better than always off, unless the observer was very active about selecting units and using Alt where appropriate. It depends on observer skill really, but in an ideal world, people who are really bad at observing would not be allowed to.
I watch broadcasts to enjoy the beauty that is SC2 not to watch a fuck ton of little boxes that for the majority of the game are fully green. Playing is obviously a different matter. So only when selected would be my choice. With a competent observer it should always be off by default and using ALT and selecting units/buildings in battles to provide the information that is needed.
Every time I see a stream that leaves those Health Bars on all the time(obviously not player streams) gives me a clear indication that the observer isn't worth anything or is a lazy SOB. Good reasons to go watch something else.
On February 19 2012 10:12 BeHave wrote: I even started watching GOM.tv with korean commentators because they always have the healthbars displayed....... Cmon Tastosis i love you but i NEED MY HEALTHBARS, I just want the information!!!!
Pretty sure it's the same observer for both streams...
I REALLY hate having to count on an outstanding observer/caster to have to select units they think are important each battle to watch hp/energy. I definitely prefer to have them always on.
As mentioned casual fans may like it off, but who is watching more starcraft, who is buying more season passes and tuning in to your commercials? The casual fan or the starcraft player...
New people to the game: Off, so it doesn't confuse them, but most players are used to them being on, would apply to a bigger audience. In my opinion I would rather have it ON as it would make me understand and learn the game to a more complex level rather than just saying, why did he focus there etc.
On February 19 2012 10:12 BeHave wrote: I even started watching GOM.tv with korean commentators because they always have the healthbars displayed....... Cmon Tastosis i love you but i NEED MY HEALTHBARS, I just want the information!!!!
Pretty sure it's the same observer for both streams...
It's not ST_Legend is on Eng stream (most of the time) and there's another one on kr stream
I'd agree that they need to be on at all times, because I have yet to see (other than the GSL guy who does the screen capture for the games) someone who can be where the action is and have all of the relevant health bars open at the same time. If it progressed maybe a year into the future and casters/screen capturers(?) are able to see things on the mini-map and keep up with selecting all of the units that needed to be selected, then i'd be okay (like I am with the GSL) letting them keep them on selected only.
I understand and agree with points that when I play the game I need them on and that when I'm watching I'd prefer to have it more visual (less health bars everywhere) but with the current talent available to capture what we as spectators would like to know (who's really winning a battle), I'd prefer for them to just leave the health bars on. I can't watch Husky videos anymore because of his lack of awareness on the mini-map and not selecting the drones and hellions when there is a runby into an opponents base. (ex. at ~4:50 to ~5:35 when two hellions make their way out of Supernova's base and hellions get the surround, or do they?, while he's looking at mineral patches)
I always play with healthbars on, but for viewing actually match broadcasts I want healthbars off because it clutters the view terribly. I personally hated when broadcasters leave healthbars on all the time it takes away the aesthetics of the game from a viewer's perspective. The camera guy should just hold in the alt key when they think it's relevant to see unit health bars, otherwise most of the time it's irrelevant. We all know that progamers all use healthbars to see opposition HP. Well except for ForGG who only has it on for his own unit for some reason.
I am so disappointed in the community for wanting health bars. It seems people are forgetting/unaware of what made BW great. Hint: it wasn't audience omniscience. I want to see the fight, not stats. Thanks.
On February 19 2012 13:59 0neder wrote: I am so disappointed in the community for wanting health bars. It seems people are forgetting/unaware of what made BW great. Hint: it wasn't audience omniscience. I want to see the fight, not stats. Thanks.
Seems most of them don't watch the GSL. Then there's also the "I am HARDCORE, healthbars off is for CASUALS" superiority complex going on.
A lot of people seem to suggest that off is better for casuals, but why? They are not so casual that they don't understand that units have health and are unable to read a health bar. In addition it adds tons of excitement. Seeing low health colossus, prisms, medivacs, etc. trying to micro back, seeing how close a storm is to killing a group of marines, seeing ultras health diminish as mmm kite them, etc. is all very exciting and easily understandable.
Health bars adds crucial information that actually makes battles much easier to understand.
Energy may be a little hard to understand from the bar if you do not have a good grasp of how much of the bar represents one force field/storm/fungal/emp/etc. And in large zerglings battles it may slightly clutter the screen, but even when I was very casual I don't remember having any problem with this and have never felt health bars was a problem.
It should definitely be ON. With a talented observer selected may be an option, but besides in the GSL I'm not sure I have really seen anyone pull it off decently. Even in the GSL I fairly often want to know the health (/energy) of certain units which are not selected.
If we wish to keep selected as the default option people really need to put much more emphasis on observing skills. Even whens pros observe they do not know how to select the right units to pass along crucial information as they never practice observing, and I don't get the impression that many commentators put a whole lot of emphasis on improving their observing skills. Anyone who has watched a decent amount of proleague knows how much of an art form observing is and how much it can add to a cast (you watch a Korean cast and do not feel like you are missing anything significant). Good observing is just as important as good commentating, and if you keep health bars selected good observing is a must.
On February 19 2012 10:19 Diamond wrote: A LARGE LARGE LARGE part of any viewing audience and almost always the majority is the casual fan. The casual fan can not read the info given by that many health bars. Only higher level players or hardcore viewers will be able to pull info off of it.
Also mainly with Zerg you end up seeing a swarm of health bars, not units, which looks silly.
Edit: Just to clarify however, selected is the best. There is times where they should be flicked on, and a good observer will know what to select or in a pinch just just hit alt.
What? This concept of "casual viewer" is pretty much bullshit if you ask me. The average viewer is probably the midrange platinumplayer and someone like that should really be able to tell, that red = bad, green = good. I don't even see the point, why hide information?
On February 19 2012 14:02 L3gendary wrote: Healthbars always on should've never made it into the release of the game. It's terrible for an esport both aesthetically and skill wise.
On February 19 2012 10:19 Diamond wrote: A LARGE LARGE LARGE part of any viewing audience and almost always the majority is the casual fan. The casual fan can not read the info given by that many health bars. Only higher level players or hardcore viewers will be able to pull info off of it.
Also mainly with Zerg you end up seeing a swarm of health bars, not units, which looks silly.
Edit: Just to clarify however, selected is the best. There is times where they should be flicked on, and a good observer will know what to select or in a pinch just just hit alt.
What? This concept of "casual viewer" is pretty much bullshit if you ask me. The average viewer is probably the midrange platinumplayer and someone like that should really be able to tell, that red = bad, green = good. I don't even see the point, why hide information?
It's not hiding information, it's preventing an overload of information as well as keeping a sense of immersion. On top of all that, it the game simply looks better without a bunch of green bars running all over the place.
I think its a balance. Starcraft2 looks much nicer without healthbars, and is more palatable for the viewer in many respects (imo). That said, in situations as the OP described where you just NEED TO KNOW who/what has health it absolutely needs to be turned on. But leaving hp bars on all the time is just f*cking ugly and unnecessary, especially toward the end of games when armies are maxed and there is little action.
On February 19 2012 14:02 rasnj wrote: A lot of people seem to suggest that off is better for casuals, but why? They are not so casual that they don't understand that units have health and are unable to read a health bar. In addition it adds tons of excitement. Seeing low health colossus, prisms, medivacs, etc. trying to micro back, seeing how close a storm is to killing a group of marines, seeing ultras health diminish as mmm kite them, etc. is all very exciting and easily understandable.
Health bars adds crucial information that actually makes battles much easier to understand.
Energy may be a little hard to understand from the bar if you do not have a good grasp of how much of the bar represents one force field/storm/fungal/emp/etc. And in large zerglings battles it may slightly clutter the screen, but even when I was very casual I don't remember having any problem with this and have never felt health bars was a problem.
It should definitely be ON. With a talented observer selected may be an option, but besides in the GSL I'm not sure I have really seen anyone pull it off decently. Even in the GSL I fairly often want to know the health (/energy) of certain units which are not selected.
If we wish to keep selected as the default option people really need to put much more emphasis on observing skills. Even whens pros observe they do not know how to select the right units to pass along crucial information as they never practice observing, and I don't get the impression that many commentators put a whole lot of emphasis on improving their observing skills. Anyone who has watched a decent amount of proleague knows how much of an art form observing is and how much it can add to a cast (you watch a Korean cast and do not feel like you are missing anything significant). Good observing is just as important as good commentating, and if you keep health bars selected good observing is a must.
On February 19 2012 10:19 Diamond wrote: A LARGE LARGE LARGE part of any viewing audience and almost always the majority is the casual fan. The casual fan can not read the info given by that many health bars. Only higher level players or hardcore viewers will be able to pull info off of it.
Also mainly with Zerg you end up seeing a swarm of health bars, not units, which looks silly.
Edit: Just to clarify however, selected is the best. There is times where they should be flicked on, and a good observer will know what to select or in a pinch just just hit alt.
What? This concept of "casual viewer" is pretty much bullshit if you ask me. The average viewer is probably the midrange platinumplayer and someone like that should really be able to tell, that red = bad, green = good. I don't even see the point, why hide information?
What defines a casual viewer is generally different from person to person. Though my definition of a "casual" or "average" viewer is anyone that plays Starcraft. I was a low Gold league player when I started watching streams. Now I'm high platinum, and watch them more than ever. When I was gold, I didn't understand much of what was going on unless the game was casted itself. Over time I learned more and now am able to understand most of what is going on. Though the more strategical and analytic parts are still beyond me to a certain extent.
The health bars really are crucial in this game, whether your playing yourself or your watching someone else play. Honestly, it doesn't bother me at all. Sometimes I don't even notice they are there until a battle commences, and then I pay attention to crucial moments like when a high templar tries to use storm on a Terran bioball or when infestors use fungal growth. I think most can agree they would like to see the health bars at this point, just to be able to see how much damage was inflicted, if any at all.
Healthbars really ought to be off most of the time for the sake of visual presentation. You gotta remember that when tournaments are streamed, they are trying to cater to not only the hardcore sc2 fans, but also the masses.
Having said that, selecting the units or using alt to turn on health bars during key moments is very important so that people have an idea of what is going on - it can allow even the casual observer to appreciate blink micro, target firing, the effect of spells such as fungal and storm on clumps of units, etc.
Personally for me, I like to see as much information as possible, so having healthbars "on" is always the way to go.
However, I do understand the feeling of a casual player seeing 100 healthbars running at eachother thinking it looks ridiculous. When there's a huge 200/200 army battle you don't need to see the health of every unit, so selected can work out as long as the observer is capable.
I think it's all down to the skill of the observer. Selected can be ok, but I've watched a bunch of games where there are small micro battles going on and not being able to see healthbars is very frustrating.
you argue this because better players can make sense of everything going on. but health bars cover the majority of units and animations/effects during large battles. so as a viewing experience having health bars on especially during 200 vs 200 is actually quite a lot of pixel pollution for casual audiences I would imagine. combined with maxed graphics I can easily see why health bars should be off. But as a caster you simply hold down the 'Alt' key and health bars for everything show up so long as you hold 'Alt' down.
Therefore in certain situations you can find a lot of info or provide info to viewers simply by holding 'Atl' for a few seconds. Learning to do this multiple times during a game or after key engagements between large or small armies, most complaints about health bars can be taken care of.
What casters currently do that isn't very effective, even for casters, is the casters select an individual unit or building to see health bars or unit production bars.
Casters aren't good enough at observing to do the selection method properly, not a single one of them are. I do not fault them for it, I'm sure it is hard.
HP bars, energy bars, building progress, training progress, upgrade progress are all VITAL to understand the current game state, which in a game of starcraft at the highest level is everything.
For what it's worth I voted in the poll, but I doubt anything will change.
On February 19 2012 10:19 Diamond wrote: A LARGE LARGE LARGE part of any viewing audience and almost always the majority is the casual fan. The casual fan can not read the info given by that many health bars. Only higher level players or hardcore viewers will be able to pull info off of it.
Also mainly with Zerg you end up seeing a swarm of health bars, not units, which looks silly.
Edit: Just to clarify however, selected is the best. There is times where they should be flicked on, and a good observer will know what to select or in a pinch just just hit alt.
What? This concept of "casual viewer" is pretty much bullshit if you ask me. The average viewer is probably the midrange platinumplayer and someone like that should really be able to tell, that red = bad, green = good. I don't even see the point, why hide information?
It's not hiding information, it's preventing an overload of information as well as keeping a sense of immersion. On top of all that, it the game simply looks better without a bunch of green bars running all over the place.
I would make the daring assumption, that higher level players are overrepresented in the tourneyviewership...
Of course it's hiding information o_O I can understand it when you say, that you don't like the looks of it but I'd much rather know wtf is going on in the game.
Casters aren't good enough at observing to do the selection method properly, not a single one of them are. I do not fault them for it, I'm sure it is hard.
If that's the case, tournaments should consider the possibility of using dedicated observers, because what ST_Legend's observing has done for the GSL has been absolutely incredible. Everyone hated on him on day one for not showing the twenty kill banshee, but since then there have been no complaints and tons of praise for him. I'm sure it took a bit of getting used to for the casters as well, but the overall product got more awesome.
They NEED to be on. The difference between a ZvT where the Zerg has a massive flock of mutas and a similar game where the Zerg has a huge flock of mutas in the red is massive. It's not even the same game. Without health bars you can't see how many fungals, snipes, or storms units will get. You cannot tell if the terran has over-stimmed his marines. There is a near endless list of things that you miss out on if you disable health bars. The screen can be a mess sometimes, but deal with it.
If obs would do it well i guess i wouldnt have a problem but they just don't. In reality, you actually have to be quite a good observer to always have the right units selected. Mabey it is because i play a lot more starcraft than i watch, but I don't see what is ugly about health bars on. And they shouldnt be confusing to newer viewers, they are freaking colorcoded.
I just watched Sheth vs Killer in MLG NA qualifier, 28 Infestors vs 15 infestors, and the casters are only showing the energy on half of killers Infestors. Noone was able to say whos winning.
And your solution to this was Healtbars On?
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I always leave Healtbars Off during the cast. Why would I want to show healthbars of units & buldings that not mather? It only clumps up the screen making it look ugly.
The duty of the caster besides doing the "bla bla bla" is also to be an observer if there isn't a dedicated observer. As an observer you need to show healthbars/energy/drone-count when it matters and not always. Good observers will always show you that. They will always tell you the drone count BEFORE the Hellions arrive in the Zerg base. They will show you always how many drones are left.
Terrible casters or casters paired with bad observers can use it as a crutch. Single casters it's fine. Two casters + observer with one caster having a screen apart from observer (is he researching blink, Artosis?), off off off
i like them on while watching casts cus I like to make calls during the game like whether they should/shouldn't engage, who'll win if they did engage, etc. just to compare what the pros would do vs what I would do type of thing.
Actually there's a very nice hotkey for it (I believe it's h?) which will let you turn on health bars immediatly. Do this at every major battle maybe? I don't mind them not being on during macrotime, but I do mind it when they're off in big battles.
I'm torn on this subject. On the one hand, the game looks nicer w/o the healthbars, on the other, when there are no healthbars, it just doesnt feel right for me.
I cant stand not seeing the healthbars either, I have a massive urge to know what is happening straight away rather than wait for the units to die or someone to select the unit and see its hp. I do see why some people dont like it though, but it's become like second nature to me so I always have to see it.
Healthbars are the reason I cannot watch the majority of games being cast. Having them always on ruins the experience for me. Together with the clumping of units, I consider healthbars to be the reason I haven't been able to get into the SC2 proscene.
Casters, please please please learn to only show them during battles. PLEASE.
Edit: This is also a major obstacle in getting new people interested in the game. Having them always on is only for the benefit of those that have played the game a lot previously, but it's a complete turn off for anyone else wanting to see what all the fuss is about. There is no reason to have them on where there is no battle going on. I would argue that always off is the correct way for a spectator sport. On only in battles is the minimum I can tolerate and I am not alone.
The poll is a reflection of the preferences of players, which is fine, but consider the future of the esport if all spectators are expected to be players. I thought we wanted to have a SPECTATOR sport with as wide a fan base as possible.
I think if this habit is not changed it will alienate a large population of potential fans. I will probably be one of them.
Do as they do at the GSL, simple. The observer is so gosu...showing only what's mandatory at all point in time.
And to all of you who don't know what's happening without bars, play a bit more Starcraft 2, anyone who plays the game can tell roughly the amount of damage the units are taking in a battle without having to look at the bars. And it does look better and clearer without those on. Who the fuck wants to know the HP of a zergling when the guy have 100+ of them.
In game when playing, obviously you want to know exactly what the unit's HP are to micro, that's different. Although fOrGG have them off for some reason haha, and he always remembers which unit he has already damaged, like a boss.
Health bars always on! GSL is ok with only selected, but that's only because ST_Legend is probably the best observer in the world. I'd still prefer it with always on. And please always have production tab open! Switching to other tabs every now and then is a good thing, but for the majority of the game the production tab should be shown.
Newer people to the game are likely to be put off by the hundreds of health bars that clog up the screen. After playing/spectating for a while we learn to 'Notice the bars without seeing them'. But for a noobie that's difficult.
Yes I love the selected health bars of ST_Legend, its a shame every tournament doesn't have a observer like him. But if a tournaments observer isn't able to focus on their job like Legend, then I think health bars should just be kept off.
Those who are Not new to Starcraft 2 would mostly prefer them on of course, but those of us experienced in the game should be able to gauge most outcomes by looking at unit numbers and positioning. When it comes down to low unit micro battles, most casters are likely to give health numbers anyway. Even if not, it does make the eventual outcome more of a surprise.
NO ONE wants to see a "Battle of the HP-Bars". In lategame battles (Broodlord/Ling especially) you can't even see the units. HP-Bars for Broodlings/Creep Tumors etc are just ridiculous! HP BARS OFF (selected)
This whole "newbies to SC2 prefer to have HP bars off" is false. Some of us actually played BW for years and had to deal with manually clicking or memorizing weaker enemy units. It's pointless to have it on all the time as a viewer of a match and makes the game seem cluttered and ugly to watch, especially later on in the game with massive amount of units. We already know that good progamers make the decision to retreat or target lower hp units by looking at enemy hp bars. It's very simple for the game observer to show hp bars only when it's relevant, such as after or during hellion harassment or seeing muta/stalker HP. There is a reason why there is a HOTKEY to allow it to be turned on and off, observers need to use it. They are getting paid to be game observers for a reason.
When I am watching commentated games I prefer visible when selected. But it is really annoying when the casters don't select stalkers that are doing blink micro or similar. Though I see that as a caster mistake like not seeing a drop happening.
It is really nice not to have them visible all the time, so you can see the army compositions easier. Otherwise you just see a big load of health bars moving around, which just ruin the information gaining for the viewers, since we do not look at the armies all the time, so it is nice to quickly being able to read it.
just like so many other things in sc2, healthbars on makes the game just so much easier... I actually think the game would require more skill without healthbars.. players finding the rights units to target? SURE!
On February 19 2012 21:18 rehagel wrote: NO ONE wants to see a "Battle of the HP-Bars". In lategame battles (Broodlord/Ling especially) you can't even see the units. HP-Bars for Broodlings/Creep Tumors etc are just ridiculous! HP BARS OFF (selected)
how can u say something when the pool says 80% want healthbars? (writing bold is very cool! maybe I should ADD SOME CAPSLOCK TOO!!!)
I want them, I want to see how low broodlords are, how good the zerg transfuses them etc. I dont care about the 5 marines I dont see because of the healthbars
On February 19 2012 22:09 Full.tilt wrote: Why isn't there an option for on when selected?
Always on makes no sense late game when there can 40-60 or more units fighting on screen. I hate always on HP bars.
No vote, bad poll.
Pretty much.
Like most of us, I always play with health bars on. But in broadcasted matches I prefer them off, if the observer is able to selects relevant units or building to show how low its health is. If he is not able to do that, then yeah I want them on. I mean, Starcraft has beautiful units and animations, I want to see them without useless bars on them. I'm not interested in the health of depots or overlords, so having always health bars on just give the viewer too much useless informations.
So, off, with the observer showing relevant health informations.
For me it doesn't matter. I think it looks much better with only selected health bars like in BW and WC3 but most observers are so bad that they never show you the HP of something when it's needed so they are better off with them on always.
But late game zerg swarming around with alot of zerglings with health bars on is fucking ugly in casted games. It also takes away some tension when you have HP information ALL the time.
i cant stand healthbars being off the whole time and i dont like it with selected either
if you are a good observer you can do it with pressing alt to show the healthabars (some wc3 players even play like this for example hasuobs) but if you are not then just leave them on the whole time...
i prefer them on at all times, but if the general preference is for them to be off, then i think casters/observers should turn them on (via holding alt by default, i think) based on the situation. eg, big battles with psi storms or dropships barely getting away.
On February 19 2012 16:12 Danglars wrote: Healthbars on PRODUCTION/TABS OFF.
Terrible casters or casters paired with bad observers can use it as a crutch. Single casters it's fine. Two casters + observer with one caster having a screen apart from observer (is he researching blink, Artosis?), off off off
no idea why you'd want the observer tabs off. they let you gain information about the game on the fly. sounds like you are trying to test the caster's ability to cast instead of enjoying the game and letting the caster add to your enjoyment -_-
A lot of people are saying that ST_Legend does a great job with them, but tbh i disagree (only with healthbars, he's awesome at the rest). PvP is probably the matchup where it's most frustrating to not see the bars. In low unit count scenarios (i.e. most of pvp) the health of individual units makes a huge difference to the battle, and while the observers can do a decent job highlighting the important unit's hp, they never catch everything that you want to know.
just like so many other things in sc2, healthbars on makes the game just so much easier... I actually think the game would require more skill without healthbars.. players finding the rights units to target? SURE!
yeah and playing with one hand tied behind your back would make the game harder too. Let's all do that to show how 1337 we are!
I played without health bars for a long time because they take away from the experience graphic wise in my opinion. I played significantly better when I turned them on, but I still prefer them off while spectating.
On February 19 2012 22:07 qwertzi wrote: just like so many other things in sc2, healthbars on makes the game just so much easier... I actually think the game would require more skill without healthbars.. players finding the rights units to target? SURE!
When I see this message I can't help but think that many participants misunderstood the poll. It's "Health bars On/Off when watching a casted game", not when playing. Obviously for playing the consensus is health bars always On, there should be no doubt.
I don't really get the whole "shows more information" thing either, that is relevant only early game during small fights and when micro plays a huge part and for seeing energy bars. I'll be ignoring the people saying crap like "noobs/casuals want to see the pretty graphics"
During big battles you'd get more information by being able to see what is dying, what is being microed and general positioning of units. Having HP bars covering a 3rd of the units is no help if it covers up any of these three things, including when stim runs out, burrow micro, baneling bombs + other types of drops etc etc
Having 100 hp bars on screen actually means we see less information regarding the battle and what is happening.
All this without even going into the speed of battles and how soon the decisive moment is in a lot of engagements rendering being able to see HP bars even less relevant.
I'd rather be able to see well placed emp's, storms, fungals, corruption, feedback, neural parasites etc clearly than just seeing shields on the HP bars disappearing or HP dropping.
I want them, I want to see how low broodlords are, how good the zerg transfuses them etc. I dont care about the 5 marines I dont see because of the healthbars
The observer can select the main-units (infestor/broodlord etc) manually. Too bad 99% of the observers are retarded scrubs who are too stupid to manual select units. The GSL ovservers are the only ones who select units intelligently to show the most useful info. All HP-Bars on all the time is a NO-GO!. Manual selecting is the way to go.
if an observer would do it nearly perfect, selected could be better than on yes. but no observer is that good (not even the gsl one) so healthbars on all the time on is a MUST
I cant believe you are saying its a no go if 80% are the exact opposite opinion^^
They should only be on during battles...not all the time......or during microbattles... IMO it really ruins the viewing experience having them on all the time during casts......
On February 19 2012 23:14 Full.tilt wrote: I don't really get the whole "shows more information" thing either, that is relevant only early game during small fights and when micro plays a huge part and for seeing energy bars. I'll be ignoring the people saying crap like "noobs/casuals want to see the pretty graphics"
During big battles you'd get more information by being able to see what is dying, what is being microed and general positioning of units. Having HP bars covering a 3rd of the units is no help if it covers up any of these three things, including when stim runs out, burrow micro, baneling bombs + other types of drops etc etc
Having 100 hp bars on screen actually means we see less information regarding the battle and what is happening.
All this without even going into the speed of battles and how soon the decisive moment is in a lot of engagements rendering being able to see HP bars even less relevant.
I'd rather be able to see well placed emp's, storms, fungals, corruption, feedback, neural parasites etc clearly than just seeing shields on the HP bars disappearing or HP dropping.
Watch GSL, in fight ST_Legend is selecting everything and u still see emps, storm etc...
If the observer is a Legend(see what I did thar) who can manually select all the important units while in a battle then it is best for HP bars to be on when selected, if the observer is shit though then I would prefer always on.
I think there's a clear correlation between preferring health bars on and one's playing skill. More casual players like big battles and explosions, more experienced players like additional information and seeing micro of injured units and so on. I think overall tournaments should clearly prefer health bars on, because it also gives the casters something additional to talk about, like the excitement of a red health Banshee or the over-stimming of units.
I prefer healthbar off when I'm watching a broadcasted game. Healthbar are nice for micro but not necessary when you are watching a game. A good broadcaster will select the units, or temporary press alt if there is an eavy micro battle. Seeing 80 healthbar on a screen is more annoying than useful.
If the observer is a Legend(see what I did thar) who can manually select all the important units while in a battle then it is best for HP bars to be on when selected, if the observer is shit though then I would prefer always on.
Is this poll serious? I hate viewing with health bars turned on, it makes everything look so ugly and cluttered. I didn't expect this result at all, in stream chat too you always hear people complain about health bars being on.
I actually resent all the options to trade visuals for competitive advantage in SC2, and in modern games in general. In certain sports if there weren't rules for face protecting helmets the majority of players would go without them, trading their own safety for better visibility. That doesn't mean they don't value their safety though, just that they feel obligated to prioritize competitiveness.
The analogy might seem ridiculous since nobody's safety is at stake by having healthbars set to on, but that isn't the point. Healthbars on is also a sacrifice, trading visual clarity for more information. And maybe it's because I still watch Brood War, but despite information having a probable competitive advantage and feeling obligated to set healthbars to on when I play, I still value clarity higher subjectively. Especially when watching. Giant churning blobs of healthbars battling healthbars is just completely off-putting to me. The information is still conveyed visually as well, just sometimes it has to be inferred after a unit dies. As a player this is bad but as a spectator it's fine. Nothing in the game functions differently depending on its health. There are no luck-based damage ranges like in Warcraft 3. As long as there's an observer to show you where each army is before a battle starts it's all there for you to see.
Visual clarity is forfeited by the way. Nestea uses select only healthbars and I assure you it's not because he's a casual. Attempts to frame this argument as casuals vs. non-casuals are disingenuous.
If the observer is good (any major tournament should have a good observer) then the settings should be set to "select only". However if I have to choose between A or B, I'd rather have HP bars ON. I watch a lot (and cast a few) smaller EU daily type tournaments and I'm pretty use to seeing HP always on.
I would like to see it so that Selected units have healthbars on. I think it adds to the game to be able to see, for example a muta cluster's health, but when we're talking mobs of Marine Tank vs. ling bane, everything but the tanks just turns into a mob of health bars, and they die suddenly rather then going slowly down in health (either the banes hit and kill marines, or the tanks hit and kill the banes.) In that scenario, it would be nice to see the tanks; it would be nice to see repaired thors, etc.
I guess I mean that health bars are a good thing, but there's a point where they become too much.
Like almost everyone else: ON unless the obs is really, really good. Watching any non-GOM stream drives me insane when it's not set to ON, because it's really hard with most observers to tell if there's any clutch zergling/zealot micro, who is winning the fight, and when that MMM ball is overstimmed.
On ofc... Many times there are "close" battles that depends on micro ... and u just look... and see nothing... cause u cant see whos dying and whos winning especially in pvp ...
I do not understand how can be winning "Always ON". For the viewer is a residue that 99% of the time you don't need. If you ever need to see them, you press Alt and there is no problem.
It's like saying that in a football game I want to see the stats for shots, fouls, corners, yellow cards, the changes have been made, and the current standings in the league ... its stupid, honestly I hate the fact that in many tournaments the "Always ON" is a MUST because of the viewers. First because Blizzard has failed to implement in an elegant bars, second because 99% of the time are NOT necessary and third because most part of the screen are these fucking 100% green or yellow bars moving.
Personally I like playing with the bars always active, but I know the difference when I am SPECTATOR and when I am PLAYER.
On February 20 2012 02:27 Forikorder wrote: i dont like healthbars on during huge battles
but aside from big engagements i like them on
That's the thing. In smaller engagements, it's REALLY helpful to have them. However, when you got 100 zerglings and 50 banelings being dropped from 15 overlords along with a bunch of mutas fighting dozens of marines and tanks and shit, there is already so much going on that having all those healthbars only makes it more difficult to decipher what the fuck is happening.
On February 20 2012 01:56 Derity wrote: i don't need to see the healthbar of 100 zerglings running into some tankfire. i prefer selected only...
Very well put!
I think healthbars are best turned off in broadcasted games. I mean, when you have a huge engagement the healthbars just jobble up everything and create a mess. Now don't get me wrong, I think they should often be toggled to see the healthbars of a small number of units in the early/mid-game because the small fights are very much easy to track via HP.
But like I said, late-game with diminishing stream quality and bunched up units, the engagements are usually over so fast the HP bars don't really matter.
On February 20 2012 01:49 Grumbels wrote: Is this poll serious? I hate viewing with health bars turned on, it makes everything look so ugly and cluttered. I didn't expect this result at all, in stream chat too you always hear people complain about health bars being on.
On February 20 2012 02:38 HaXXspetten wrote: Always on of course, also ok if the casters show them during battles, but still better to just have them on all the time.
Personally, healthbars on selected is on some occasions better even when playing for me, there a few pros that play like that also (ForGG comes to mind).
It makes it harder to tell the already too weak team colors, especially in ZvZ where the heath bars are bigger than the units.
I prefer the immersion to the information. It's easier to get lost in the game with the health bars off.
The post above me is great too, "does anyone also think that healthbars should be smaller?" I'd like to see what they look like, literally, 1 pixel wide. lol
Can't believe so many people "like" the health bars.
I think it should be off for the whole game and when there is an engagement/battle the caster should hold alt. what is the point of health bars in the in beginning of a game anyway.
edit: as someone said above me, it's annoying to see health bars on and not be able to see unit compositions when the armies are idle.
Having healthbars turned on permanently is not pleasant to watch. Everytime i see a caster turn healthbars on while observing a protoss deathball with stalkers, colossus, immortals and sometimes phoenix, i am about to puke. You cant distinguish at all which units are in that deathball.
i dont know where i stand on this. i can only play with them on, but it adds a level of surprise if casters have them turned off, but then again i want to see these 1hp dropships or voidrays for myself too =S
And heyyyy I have an idea (for blizzard^^). (I know ideas isn't the topic here, but I want to share it!).
Blizzard could add a simple function like this: you activate a function while watching a replay and it makes health bars appear when the unit gets hit, and it stays on for a couple of seconds. An example would be marines getting near the zerg hatch and they hit the queen. Right when they do that the queen health bar automatically appears for a while (like 2-3sec) and if nothing happens it just disappear again. I think this would be the best way to watch a game : D
i have to bump this thread because i was just so pissed of by the IPL games casted right now. So protoss pushes and forcefields the ramp comentary was "if he can forcefield ramps bla" doesn't show the sentrys energy. Also never selects any important units (voidrays vs queen etc.) or roaches when he was microing vs the cannons early.
Just turn the healthbars on, or i will turn your stream off because it is so annyoing to not get the important information.
I was thinking no health bars at all simply because it looks like a mass of healthbars. Seriously, it just looks bad. Especially when you combine it with group clumping.
But I think switching it to healthbar when selected is a better alternative. What would be best is if Blizzard went switched the healthbars to under the unit. It was a much more muted thing that didn't get in the way near so much and made for a much better viewing experience. What exactly was the theory on putting the healthbar on top?
Well, my eyes are trained to watch with health bars on at this point. Definitely leave them on. I like to be able to see the units that are low on health in intense engagements, and I don't want to have to rely on the casters to select those units for me. Aesthetically, they don't bother me at all either, though they might bother casual viewers, idk.
I always play with healtbars on since that information is vital to me as a player, that information is not vital to me as an observer and it serves for the most part only to clutter up the scene.
Not only that but I feel battles are more exciting when not all the information is readily available to me.
Healthbars selected is the best by far. Having them always on is just a complete mess (when observing, not playing). Plus I could see casual fans getting a bit turned off by having them always on.
On February 22 2012 10:17 DrVegetables wrote: I prefer health bars on just when important.
And heyyyy I have an idea (for blizzard^^). (I know ideas isn't the topic here, but I want to share it!).
Blizzard could add a simple function like this: you activate a function while watching a replay and it makes health bars appear when the unit gets hit, and it stays on for a couple of seconds. An example would be marines getting near the zerg hatch and they hit the queen. Right when they do that the queen health bar automatically appears for a while (like 2-3sec) and if nothing happens it just disappear again. I think this would be the best way to watch a game : D
health bars are really essential for me. Very disturbing not to be able to see how teh unit composition is looking health wise before a major battle starts, and not to follow it either through the whoel battle is equally frustrating
i still think the only reason to see healthbars is so that !you! can micro better. if you're not the one playing and just a spectator, they don't add anything at all ..
On February 22 2012 10:17 DrVegetables wrote: I prefer health bars on just when important.
And heyyyy I have an idea (for blizzard^^). (I know ideas isn't the topic here, but I want to share it!).
Blizzard could add a simple function like this: you activate a function while watching a replay and it makes health bars appear when the unit gets hit, and it stays on for a couple of seconds. An example would be marines getting near the zerg hatch and they hit the queen. Right when they do that the queen health bar automatically appears for a while (like 2-3sec) and if nothing happens it just disappear again. I think this would be the best way to watch a game : D
That's a great idea actually!
I can imagine that looking completely horrible during battles, it'd only be massively distracting.
just remove hp bars for broodlings/creep tumors (observer only). Lategame TvZ with Healthbars always on is ridiculous. You can't see any units because there are 500 broodling hp-bars on the screen.
On February 19 2012 10:30 L3g3nd_ wrote: I cant stand healthbars being off. One of the most frustrating things as a player, but i can see why casual viewers might prefer them off.
High masters Zerg here (so not really casual player)...I actually prefer them off most of the time, and then to have to observer turn them on when the situation calls for it (drop, something being sniped, battle, etc). Visually the game looks so much better without HP bars
On March 25 2012 22:14 akalarry wrote: just turn on health bars (holding alt) whenever there is any action going on. it's that simple.
Whenever there's action that would turn on a unit/structure's health. [Storms. Baserace. Zergling vs Zealot earlygame. Not sure kills or one sided battles]
Health bars always turned on. Any other choice is a complete failure and is totally ruining the viewing experience for me and for everyone who cares what is going to happen in the game, not just watch some movie or whatever.
Typically the game is casted on Ultra, which just makes everything distractingly shiny, at the default gama which is way too dark. I guess the same pinheads who decided that looked good are the ones who thought "health bars are just clutter".
Presumably the same people who say "don't pan too fast or our audience won't know where we are on the map," or "don't leave the production tab up all the time, the newbie viewers don't like it."
I wanna know, who are these newbie viewers? Who are these people who don't know enough about the game to appreciate micro, let alone build orders and timings, who bother to tune in to watch this game? It's as absurd as ESPN casting chess for the Friday Night Football fans.
it is so annoying that like 1000 people in this thread write "selected" would be better. The poll means OFF = selected no caster ever turns them off completly and it should be obvious to anyone that read some posts that OFF means healthbars are off but highlighted units have a healthbar.
But yeah all these "dumb" posts made me think that always on but turned off in huge battles is probably the best solution, the only time i don't like healthbars is when there are 200supply armys crushing into another. But yeah that is like 10 seconds that probably can be turned off by pressing alt.
Other than this there is no reason to turn healthbars off really, i recently noticed that casters miss a lot more stuff when healthbars are off. A banshee that has 5 hp will probably never be indentified as a low hp banshee because a caster doesn't click on it, then it dies and the opportunity to "hype" the low hp banshee is gone and the cast is less exciting. Same happens to a lot of stuff, a emp hits but if there are no healthbars you can't really tell how much units it hit and even if you turn on healthbars after a big emp hit you can't really tell if it hit 10 templars with max energy or if they had low energy anyways.So the caster can only say "good emp" but he can't really tell if it was a crucial emp and a possible game winning move or just some medicore emp.
On March 25 2012 23:04 BurgerAce wrote: Typically the game is casted on Ultra, which just makes everything distractingly shiny, at the default gama which is way too dark. I guess the same pinheads who decided that looked good are the ones who thought "health bars are just clutter".
Presumably the same people who say "don't pan too fast or our audience won't know where we are on the map," or "don't leave the production tab up all the time, the newbie viewers don't like it."
I wanna know, who are these newbie viewers? Who are these people who don't know enough about the game to appreciate micro, let alone build orders and timings, who bother to tune in to watch this game? It's as absurd as ESPN casting chess for the Friday Night Football fans.
agree. most of the people that watch the game play the game themselves. is it ignorance or arrogance that leads some to believe, that everyone else is too stupid too understand, that ceteris paribus red=bad?
Best option would be healthbars off if there is a really good observer. I wish we could duplicate ST_Legend and have him observe every single tournament match. Most observers miss a ton of stuff, so in that case healthbars should be always on. It happened so often that I almost got angry because I caught something the casters/observer missed but I couldn't even see the healthbar of whatever that was.
This is actually something that I really hate. Only time I ever want healthbars off are in these gianourmous battles superlate, then all the units look cool and give a good enough overview themselves. But God damn it those times when you can't see the HP on a fleeing Void Ray or Medivacs, or experience the extreme microbattles to the max. Seriously agree with op.
Maybe Blizzard should add a third option for health bars- just a small unobtrusive single square next to each unit that goes from green to red/dim red, so you can roughly tell health without taking up much of the screen.
Spectating is mainly for entertainment purposes. Spectators professional or casual don't need that much information. Would you like to have health bars shown during the battle between optimus prime and megatron in a Transformers movie? No.
On February 19 2012 10:19 Diamond wrote: A LARGE LARGE LARGE part of any viewing audience and almost always the majority is the casual fan. The casual fan can not read the info given by that many health bars. Only higher level players or hardcore viewers will be able to pull info off of it.
Also mainly with Zerg you end up seeing a swarm of health bars, not units, which looks silly.
Edit: Just to clarify however, selected is the best. There is times where they should be flicked on, and a good observer will know what to select or in a pinch just just hit alt.
Pretty much sums it up right there, while quite a large majority of TL posters are the more 'hardcore fans' and I have no doubt (on) will win. The actual majority of viewers probably just won't enjoy all the additional information as much.
Speaking from my own experience doing some MLG's, z33k, Midwest Meltdown, and more. I know I don't tend to miss a lot observing and casting at the same time, but that's taken a LONG time to get used to doing. I can 100% say though that being the observer while casting is not optimal. I know for certain I don't obs as well when i'm casting, nor do I cast as well when I'm obsing. It's just one of those deals where one or the other will suffer when you are having to multitask your brain to to do both effectively.
Plus you have to consider the potential for fatigue into it when you are obsing and casting games at the same time.
Now should there be a move to dedicated obs across the board on tournaments over time. Sure as people can afford to pay observers I think you'll see that happen more and more. Which will quell a lot of the problems people are voicing in my opinion.
On March 26 2012 07:55 Avril_Lavigne wrote: Spectating is mainly for entertainment purposes. Spectators professional or casual don't need that much information. Would you like to have health bars shown during the battle between optimus prime and megatron in a Transformers movie? No.
What a terrible comparison. Those things are not in any way similar.
I prefer them off, it takes up way too much space if they're on. The battle rarely hinges on units being hurt and most times that's early game or expensive units late which a good spec will pickup anyway.
I'm really surprised at the number of people that want them on, it's usually fairly obviously which units are pretty beatup.
Doing an informal poll of my casual friends, they all preferred health bars off. However, the few competitive friends I have prefer them on. Even though I prefer them on myself, I would still vote for them off as I see the casual friendly view to be of more importance than being able to see health for the minority.
Yes! Someone else did the work I was going to try to do. To me it's becomes the Battle of the Health Bars and it's a Blizzard design issue.
Take a look at the difference:
Current
Potential Now you could tweak it a bit because I think the second one is a little too hard to see with the workers' healthbars, but I think it's the right idea.
See the problem is any army with depth, the overlap that you see is just more healthbars where the actual unit is hidden. This is further exacberated with unit clumping. I think it also has to do with our tendency (at least in English) to read from the top of the page to the bottom. I'm pretty sure we perceive what's on top before what's on bottom.
With it on top, it just looks way too busy and it's hard to register the individual parts you are seeing as it just becomes a mass of green, yellow, and red lights, combined with attack animation.
I've never figured out why people don't like health bars on. You can't see the condition of a flock of Mutalisks or how heavily those Stalkers are getting munched up by Zerglings. The inability to see when a unit is going to die takes away a large element of spectating IMHO; I wish casters had health bars on all the time. Would make for a better experience if you could actually know the condition of an army.
This drove me mad over the course of this weekends MLG. So much missing information in so many games that really takes away from the enjoyment of watcing SC2. Part of me wonders if the people that don't like them on simply don't realize just how much they are missing out on since they don't give it a chance.
This has always been a big pet peeve to me. The way I look at it is that its similar to the overlaying markers in football. How much would it suck if we couldn't see the first down line?
I always play with them on, but while watching it might be better for the masses to have less clutter on the screen. I agree with the current healthbars off in casted games.
I've always preferred health bars on even when playing or when watching a game. You could argue that a casual viewer would be overloaded with too much info, but I think that unless the observer is really good at knowing what parts of the battle he should show, health bars should always be on so we don't randomly see buildings blowing up and go "What just happened?". Too often the observers or casters will miss the action - having health bars on will allow them to quickly zoom into the more important parts of the battle rather than trying to box random clumps of units to see which is better to show.
On February 19 2012 10:30 L3g3nd_ wrote: I cant stand healthbars being off. One of the most frustrating things as a player, but i can see why casual viewers might prefer them off.
This, i used to play that way, never again *shiver*
On March 26 2012 12:44 Jdorty wrote: This has always been a big pet peeve to me. The way I look at it is that its similar to the overlaying markers in football. How much would it suck if we couldn't see the first down line?
There is a difference between one line and hundreds of green lines that obscure the actual units and action. I have no problems with healthbars on select. If they are on all the time they are useless 99% of the time because I don't need to see that units are 100% for the majority of the game. Maybe Blizzard will be motivated to make an option that allows Healthbars to automatically come on when a units gets <75%, <50%, <25% and allow you to choose. But I cannot stand just seeing hundreds of green bars while SPECTATING that are useless 99% of the time.
I'm really disappointed in the community on this vote. I want to see Starcraft, not healthbars. They weren't needed in BroodWar, and they are not needed in SC2. Omniscience is boring.
EDIT: and a nice bonus to actually fixing unit spacing and not having them overlap each other would be that healthbars are more legible (but I'm still against them except for manually selected units).
On February 19 2012 16:12 Danglars wrote: Healthbars on PRODUCTION/TABS OFF.
Terrible casters or casters paired with bad observers can use it as a crutch. Single casters it's fine. Two casters + observer with one caster having a screen apart from observer (is he researching blink, Artosis?), off off off
no idea why you'd want the observer tabs off. they let you gain information about the game on the fly. sounds like you are trying to test the caster's ability to cast instead of enjoying the game and letting the caster add to your enjoyment -_-
I say not, I want the observer tabs off. Sometimes, it can give the nice useful information like Caster A saying, "Hey look, MKP has 20 tanks and MVP only has 15!" The production tab in particular lessens the enjoyment of watching a game with excitement. Have you heard of suspense in third party narration? I call on you to think about that as a method of enjoying the game. I put my trust in the caster/observer team, or 2 casters + observer team, to not suddenly miss an entire army getting built and only show it halfway in through a fight.
Yeah, if I'm there with my starcraft notebook I'll appreciate it. As a cast observer, I want the suspense. I want to be drawn in like a movie to a plot. I'll see them when they're made and researched. I'll rely on the exciting voice telling me, "HE'S HATCHING 20 MUTAS" and not squiting at a number in the upper left.
You're free to disagree with me on that, and I won't be mad. Just giving you the idea as to why the production tab being off is a good thing. Why I'm not trying to test the caster's ability (If its just you, and you gotta talk and observe, there will be too much going on at some point and its a necessary tool). Why I'm getting enjoyment for gasping at the sudden units out on the field rather than expecting them from a little icon and bar in a corner.
On March 26 2012 08:27 Falling wrote: Yes! Someone else did the work I was going to try to do. To me it's becomes the Battle of the Health Bars and it's a Blizzard design issue.
Take a look at the difference:
Current
Potential Now you could tweak it a bit because I think the second one is a little too hard to see with the workers' healthbars, but I think it's the right idea.
See the problem is any army with depth, the overlap that you see is just more healthbars where the actual unit is hidden. This is further exacberated with unit clumping. I think it also has to do with our tendency (at least in English) to read from the top of the page to the bottom. I'm pretty sure we perceive what's on top before what's on bottom.
With it on top, it just looks way too busy and it's hard to register the individual parts you are seeing as it just becomes a mass of green, yellow, and red lights, combined with attack animation.
Those are interesting pics but the second one seems a bit more zoomed-out? It seems to me another big difference is the lack of lines in the health bars of the second pic, making less noise. Agree that Blizzard should have thought of alternative hp/energy bar design with less noise.
Personally i don't like how casters treat the audience as being retarded or knowing nothing about the game. Yes, there are a lot of people who watch tournaments but don't really play SC, but frankly if the casts were generally aimed a bit higher they might be inspired to actually the play the damn game to get an understanding of what's going on. The fact is the better you get at starcraft, the more interesting it becomes.
Like to quote the guy above me,
I'll rely on the exciting voice telling me, "HE'S HATCHING 20 MUTAS" and not squiting at a number in the upper left.
To anyone who plays this game past like platinum, these things are not a surprise, and are not what makes the game interesting. "Omg he's hatching 20 mutas!!111". Well yes, that's why he built the spire and is banking 2k/2k. Or "omg he's making soo many banelings right now!" Yep. It's a baneling bust.
I watch starcraft games to learn (and also to admire the skill of some great players) but I feel that withholding information from the viewer really hurts that. When you look at a bunch of marines with no healthbars, it's really not that interesting. All we know is that there are some marines there. We all know what marines look like and have seen them before. Knowing how much hp they have tells us their potential to do damage to the opponent, how well they are being micro'd, how much they've stimmed. This is why the healthbars are so big ingame. Starcraft is ultimately a game of maths - can i mine enough numbers of resources to make enough numbers of units and use them in such a way that i lose less numbers than you?
One definition of art is that it's the expression of imagination/concepts/thoughts through some kind of media. I believe that starcraft can be raised to a level where it becomes an art form. Certainly i have watched some games by Julyzerg that were frankly beautiful. And when it comes to art, i want to see the whole picture.
I voted off because you are voting for them on generally to compensate for a crap observer.
Really you need good observers ... which usually means someone who is really good at the game and practises observing.
I got the feeling that dj wheat was obsing in one of the mlg finals - whilst casting. Each caster should have their own screen and the obs should be independant - but the casters need to be able to see the obs's screen.
pretty sure you can just hold down a key and have em all pop up
or clean them up a bit ... i really like the dota2 health bars (graduated in 200hp and 1000 hp) - they tell u how much is left relativley and absolutley at a glance... combien that with above and you have a great feature imo.
Really i guess the ideal is a more interactive vod .. when you as an obs can get context off the stream by hovering over ...that would be cool
I like healthbars on selected units.In large scale battles it would be imporant units like Ghosts, Templar, Infestor, Colossi and such stuff. In lower numbers (like 10vs10 units), healthbar on everything is ok.
EPT
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