A major moment has happened in Starcraft history today as it was announced that the winner of the TL Map Contest, ESV's Cloud Kingdom will be an official map in the 2012 Season 1 GSL Map Pool.
This marks the first time ever that a Non-Korean map (ignoring Blizz maps) has EVER entered a Korean Starleague in either Brood War or Starcraft 2.
Cloud Kingdom is the work of one of the most prolific mapmakers in the scene, Superouman who is also the creator of ESV Sanshorn Mist AE (IPL TAC Map) and the ever famous Testbug, which helped paved the way for foreign mapmaking and advanced texturing.
With this move from GSL, expect foreign maps to become more and more common in tournaments, and this paves the way for more maps not made in Korea being used in Korean Starleagues!
i hope this doesnt turn out to be as shitty as testbug was :DDD (i know this map was used for quite some time, but lets be honest, most players didnt like it).
But honestly, this looks much better than testbug, im looking forward to the TvT in Code S on this map tomorrow.
On January 09 2012 10:27 DarKFoRcE wrote: i hope this doesnt turn out to be as shitty as testbug was :DDD (i know this map was used for quite some time, but lets be honest, most players didnt like it).
But honestly, this looks much better than testbug, im looking forward to the TvT in Code S on this map tomorrow.
Being they share no similar features or well anything I got to imagine Testbug's success will not dictate the success of this .
On January 09 2012 10:27 DarKFoRcE wrote: i hope this doesnt turn out to be as shitty as testbug was :DDD (i know this map was used for quite some time, but lets be honest, most players didnt like it).
But honestly, this looks much better than testbug, im looking forward to the TvT in Code S on this map tomorrow.
I hated playing on Testbug, but love watching pro games on it
This map is soo bad! almost impossible for Zerg to win on this versus either terran or protoss. There isn't one area on the whole map which isn't narrow making engaging a toss favourably impossible, and there are just ledges which scream siege tank abuse everywhere on top of being narrow being good for terran too.
On January 09 2012 10:31 Ziktomini wrote: This map is soo bad! almost impossible for Zerg to win on this versus either terran or protoss. There isn't one area on the whole map which isn't narrow making engaging a toss favourably impossible, and there are just ledges which scream siege tank abuse everywhere on top of being narrow being good for terran too.
Look to try and maybe abuse the near infinite attack angles. It is choked but at almost any point on the map you can hit from multiple directions.
Awesome news. I'm not too huge of a fan of the map after having played on it a few times. But it's great you guys are getting some recognition from GSL
I hope some more people choose to start following mapmakers on Twitter, sort of crazy the #1 foreign mapmaker only has 50 followers hehe. Will help them reach more people with their work in the future.
Also just not Superouman, even the Crux mappers and TPW guys could use some love also!
I haven't seen the map in action or anything like that, but it is great to see a map make it through to a big stage. Hopefully map making becomes a bigger deal, and tournaments seek out new maps. It gives the tournament a bit of promotion as well, just as this map is for the KSL.
You should add a link to the OP that has vods of some games played on this map as I am interested in seeing how it plays out and i am sure others are as well.
On January 09 2012 10:31 Ziktomini wrote: This map is soo bad! almost impossible for Zerg to win on this versus either terran or protoss. There isn't one area on the whole map which isn't narrow making engaging a toss favourably impossible, and there are just ledges which scream siege tank abuse everywhere on top of being narrow being good for terran too.
Holy crap! You might have to have more than one control group and flank? :O nonsense!
On January 09 2012 10:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: wow GSL starts tomorrow already?
Hope to see an epic TvT. I wonder what the different TvT styles will look like on this map!
It's like Xel Naga Caverns:
Bio can be really strong early on because of all the different ways to maneuver around the map, but as the tank number grows the chokes become really powerful, and help secure the foward positions/bases.
Except you have a natural you can actually defend, and splitting the map by the xel nagas is impossible because of all of the surface area you have to cover (plus that fucking roundabout route on the side expansions).
I barely watched the AoL KoK at all, so I never did catch this map... glad to hear it got picked up for the main tournament. It'll be fun to see top caliber players on this!
As a Zerg player, I hate that there is no obvious, easily defendable third base on this map, but as a spectator I think it will lead to a lot of interesting choices related to army composition, army movement, attack paths, etc, which will be very interesting!!
Or it will just become a complete 2 base all in map which is the last thing we need, guess we'll have to see how it plays out . Either way it is pretty awesome to have a foreign map in GSL =)
On January 09 2012 11:35 ApBuLLet wrote: As a Zerg player, I hate that there is no obvious, easily defendable third base on this map, but as a spectator I think it will lead to a lot of interesting choices related to army composition, army movement, attack paths, etc, which will be very interesting!!
Or it will just become a complete 2 base all in map which is the last thing we need, guess we'll have to see how it plays out . Either way it is pretty awesome to have a foreign map in GSL =)
I see nothing but 3/4+ base macro games on this map in the ESV Korean Weekly, TL Map Contest and GSL King of Kongs and I really don't see that changing a lot any time soon either
It's a really fun map to play on that allows for a lot of aggressive play for all races, while macro players at the same time have a good shot at getting their high econ builds through. And ofc. I personally have a thing for 1v1 maps, since they don't revolve around random spawn points and bad map symmetry etc. don't know if anybody feels this way. Not a big fan of the tileset though, I think the map gets a bit too dark, but that's all personal preference.
On January 09 2012 11:50 Chill wrote: One thing that history has taught me is that nobody can predict how maps will play out. So stop trying. The proof will be in the pudding soon enough.
Yes, but "the proof of the pudding is in the eating."
On January 09 2012 11:35 ApBuLLet wrote: As a Zerg player, I hate that there is no obvious, easily defendable third base on this map, but as a spectator I think it will lead to a lot of interesting choices related to army composition, army movement, attack paths, etc, which will be very interesting!!
Or it will just become a complete 2 base all in map which is the last thing we need, guess we'll have to see how it plays out . Either way it is pretty awesome to have a foreign map in GSL =)
I see nothing but 3/4+ base macro games on this map in the ESV Korean Weekly, TL Map Contest and GSL King of Kongs and I really don't see that changing a lot any time soon either
We will just have to see =) now that it is in GSL it will get a lot more attention and the map's "metagame" per se can change quickly when it has all the top players looking for clever ways to play on it. I think the way you play a map can be particularly advantageous when the map hasn't been played on a ton, in comparison to maps that have been figured out and everyone plays somewhat the same.
On January 09 2012 11:50 Chill wrote: ONE thing that history has taught me is that nobody can predict how maps will play out. So stop trying. The proof will be in the pudding soon enough.
Pretty much. As a BW mapper and SC2 mapper, you find that your maps never play out the way you expect them to. Even the best mappers can't predict what'll happen (cough, Battle Royal)
On January 09 2012 10:36 Diamond wrote: I hope some more people choose to start following mapmakers on Twitter, sort of crazy the #1 foreign mapmaker only has 50 followers hehe. Will help them reach more people with their work in the future.
Also just not Superouman, even the Crux mappers and TPW guys could use some love also!
I'm divided...I mean what will they tweet.
Otherwise, Hell yeah foreign map makers! the cool thing is gonna be when people make really cool tilesets with really balanced maps.
On January 09 2012 10:36 Diamond wrote: I hope some more people choose to start following mapmakers on Twitter, sort of crazy the #1 foreign mapmaker only has 50 followers hehe. Will help them reach more people with their work in the future.
Also just not Superouman, even the Crux mappers and TPW guys could use some love also!
I'm divided...I mean what will they tweet.
Otherwise, Hell yeah foreign map makers! the cool thing is gonna be when people make really cool tilesets with really balanced maps.
About new maps they are making, life, first world problems, basically what everyone uses it for?
On January 09 2012 10:31 Ziktomini wrote: This map is soo bad! almost impossible for Zerg to win on this versus either terran or protoss. There isn't one area on the whole map which isn't narrow making engaging a toss favourably impossible, and there are just ledges which scream siege tank abuse everywhere on top of being narrow being good for terran too.
I wonder what race you play....rofl.
Grats Pat, glad to see the map team getting recognition. <3
On January 09 2012 10:24 Diamond wrote: This marks the first time ever that a Non-Korean map (ignoring Blizz maps) has EVER entered a Korean Starleague in either Brood War or Starcraft 2.
There's only one Korean "Starleague" and it still hasn't used a foreign map.
On January 09 2012 10:24 Diamond wrote: This marks the first time ever that a Non-Korean map (ignoring Blizz maps) has EVER entered a Korean Starleague in either Brood War or Starcraft 2.
There's only one Korean "Starleague" and it still hasn't used a foreign map.
Actually found out about this after, but even from Bill's own description the iTV was a "for fun" league, not really a Star League. Also you will find that most people lump up things like MSL into the term "Star League" (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236).
So yea I learned a bit today but I still feel like this is fair.
On January 09 2012 10:24 Diamond wrote: This marks the first time ever that a Non-Korean map (ignoring Blizz maps) has EVER entered a Korean Starleague in either Brood War or Starcraft 2.
There's only one Korean "Starleague" and it still hasn't used a foreign map.
On January 09 2012 10:24 Diamond wrote: This marks the first time ever that a Non-Korean map (ignoring Blizz maps) has EVER entered a Korean Starleague in either Brood War or Starcraft 2.
There's only one Korean "Starleague" and it still hasn't used a foreign map.
Cloud Kingdom is featured in tonight's GSL code S game.
The "SL" in GSL stands for "Starcraft II League". Diamond is correct in that other leagues are often lumped together as "starleagues" by non-Koreans, and for that reason I think his usage of the term is fair, but technically there is only one Starleague and that's the Ongamenet Starleague.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that Ongamenet has trademarked "Starleague"
On January 09 2012 10:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: wow GSL starts tomorrow already?
Hope to see an epic TvT. I wonder what the different TvT styles will look like on this map!
It's like Xel Naga Caverns:
Bio can be really strong early on because of all the different ways to maneuver around the map, but as the tank number grows the chokes become really powerful, and help secure the foward positions/bases.
Except you have a natural you can actually defend, and splitting the map by the xel nagas is impossible because of all of the surface area you have to cover (plus that fucking roundabout route on the side expansions).
Ah, thank you :D. Cloud Kingdom is more vertical too, meaning sensor towers will be better, which will help mech as well :D
On January 09 2012 10:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: wow GSL starts tomorrow already?
Hope to see an epic TvT. I wonder what the different TvT styles will look like on this map!
It's like Xel Naga Caverns:
Bio can be really strong early on because of all the different ways to maneuver around the map, but as the tank number grows the chokes become really powerful, and help secure the foward positions/bases.
Except you have a natural you can actually defend, and splitting the map by the xel nagas is impossible because of all of the surface area you have to cover (plus that fucking roundabout route on the side expansions).
Ah, thank you :D. Cloud Kingdom is more vertical too, meaning sensor towers will be better, which will help mech as well :D
I personally never thought about that in relation to mech/sensor towers, interesting.
I'm guessing this map has been included because it's FUCKING AWESOME. This is actually one of the best custom maps I've played on. I don't know what makes this map so frickin' good, but more maps need to be like this. The best 2-player map I've played on in SC2 to date.
I enjoy seeing any map that has wildly different features than your basic maps. As for balance i tend to trust the koreans and the gsl. they dont just pick their maps at random so im sure this was tested and found to be passable. only time will tell but at least they are trying out different things!
On January 09 2012 14:39 mapthesoul wrote: I dislike the tile set and color scheme. : (
It's the same as calm before the storm.
Could've been due to the low quality SQ stream, but the map was extremely 'foggy' on Arena of Legends and way worse to watch on than Calm before the Storm.
On January 09 2012 10:27 DarKFoRcE wrote: i hope this doesnt turn out to be as shitty as testbug was :DDD (i know this map was used for quite some time, but lets be honest, most players didnt like it).
But honestly, this looks much better than testbug, im looking forward to the TvT in Code S on this map tomorrow.
the map-maker himself admitted that testbug was a bad map, but he also said that it was the map that he learned the most from, and now has a much better understanding of the relationship between the natural and the third.
Congrats! I love seeing games on this map, so beutiful, and I realy feel that the smarter player can do more on this map, as it gives so many opportunities with the chokes and high grounds.
On January 09 2012 14:39 mapthesoul wrote: I dislike the tile set and color scheme. : (
It's the same as calm before the storm.
Could've been due to the low quality SQ stream, but the map was extremely 'foggy' on Arena of Legends and way worse to watch on than Calm before the Storm.
We've actually already released a new version that should be a lot better. It was actually something we did not think of as it's always been used only on HQ streams.
If it's still not suitable, we will modify further if needed. I saw the new version though and it should be fine, I will actually be watching the SQ on my TV and comp tonight to see how it looks.
A map that Cloud can finally beat Goody on (since its his kingdom ^^). On serious note. Big congratulations. Getting theirs map to the best tournament ever is like the code S win for mapmakers.
At first impression, it looks like a bad map for Zerg. Watching Nerchio vs WhiteRa on it, it looks extremely weak for Zerg. Then again, Nerchio played horribly against WhiteRa, so who knows. It definitely looks like Entombed Valley though, only difference being that there is no wide open space in the middle, less space behind bases for muta, and no rocks between nat and third.
Yeah, definitely looks imbalanced for Zerg, but we'll have to wait and see.
On January 09 2012 19:15 Tobberoth wrote: At first impression, it looks like a bad map for Zerg. Watching Nerchio vs WhiteRa on it, it looks extremely weak for Zerg. Then again, Nerchio played horribly against WhiteRa, so who knows. It definitely looks like Entombed Valley though, only difference being that there is no wide open space in the middle, less space behind bases for muta, and no rocks between nat and third.
Yeah, definitely looks imbalanced for Zerg, but we'll have to wait and see.
As someone that switched to Zerg I still have to imagine the advantage of lots and lots of ground flanking routes outweighs the hard to take 3rd. I feel like muta might be a bad choice on the map, something like Bane/Line/Infestor or Ling/Roach/Infestor or whatever.
I don't have an opinion about the maps gameplay, but aesthetically looks good although maybe too cloudy/foggy in the center. The fogginess reduces clarity, which is important for an esport. Might look too foggy only because i watched the game 360p. The map is full of strong colors and plenty of contrast (purple/orange), which might make important stuff harder to spot. What do you guys think?
On January 09 2012 20:05 Snettik wrote: I don't have an opinion about the maps gameplay, but aesthetically looks good although maybe too cloudy/foggy in the center. The fogginess reduces clarity, which is important for an esport. Might look too foggy only because i watched the game 360p. The map is full of strong colors and plenty of contrast (purple/orange), which might make important stuff harder to spot. What do you guys think?
Yeah we updated it, it appears the GSL either got the wrong version or did no update yet. It's been scaled back already.
On January 09 2012 20:05 Snettik wrote: I don't have an opinion about the maps gameplay, but aesthetically looks good although maybe too cloudy/foggy in the center. The fogginess reduces clarity, which is important for an esport. Might look too foggy only because i watched the game 360p. The map is full of strong colors and plenty of contrast (purple/orange), which might make important stuff harder to spot. What do you guys think?
Yeah we updated it, it appears the GSL either got the wrong version or did no update yet. It's been scaled back already.
The new one looks, better, great map to play on, hope to see it on ladder.
Cool looking map but terrible for spectating imo. Keep the fog to the outer edges where ground units don't walk on. The textures need to be more solid instead of complex too. It was night and day how clearly visible units were when the GSL games switched over to Blizzard maps which use cleaner solid textures for terrain, a thousand times less doodads and special effects. Clarity over super fancy distracting looking maps. The game should be about the units fighting and doing their thing, but some of these 3rd party maps kinda steal a bit from that with distracting bloated eye candy.
On January 09 2012 11:50 Chill wrote: ONE thing that history has taught me is that nobody can predict how maps will play out. So stop trying. The proof will be in the pudding soon enough.
Pretty much. As a BW mapper and SC2 mapper, you find that your maps never play out the way you expect them to. Even the best mappers can't predict what'll happen (cough, Battle Royal)
And Protoss4ever is awesome.
What's up with those stats? I never followed broodwar or anything, but 0 PvPs and 71 ZvZs? huh?
I'm curious, do mapmakers get money for these maps? If so, about how much can one get? Obviously it's a great honor to have the map featured in these kinds of tournaments. I'm just wondering. Edit: There was one epic game on this map from today's GSL right? I forgot who was playing (BoxeR maybe), but I remember the game being good.
On January 09 2012 23:07 Roberi wrote: I'm curious, do mapmakers get money for these maps? If so, about how much can one get? Obviously it's a great honor to have the map featured in these kinds of tournaments. I'm just wondering. Edit: There was one epic game on this map from today's GSL right? I forgot who was playing (BoxeR maybe), but I remember the game being good.
No tournaments do not pay anything T_T. Hope some tournaments take it upon themselves to correct this in 2012.
On January 09 2012 19:15 Tobberoth wrote: At first impression, it looks like a bad map for Zerg. Watching Nerchio vs WhiteRa on it, it looks extremely weak for Zerg. Then again, Nerchio played horribly against WhiteRa, so who knows. It definitely looks like Entombed Valley though, only difference being that there is no wide open space in the middle, less space behind bases for muta, and no rocks between nat and third.
Yeah, definitely looks imbalanced for Zerg, but we'll have to wait and see.
As someone that switched to Zerg I still have to imagine the advantage of lots and lots of ground flanking routes outweighs the hard to take 3rd. I feel like muta might be a bad choice on the map, something like Bane/Line/Infestor or Ling/Roach/Infestor or whatever.
I wouldn't want to ZvT or ZvP on a map that has a lot of choke points, makes mutas nonviable, and has a hard to defend third* even if I could flank. I mean you can flank on any map.
edit: *honestly, as a zerg player, those are the primary reasons I would thumbs down any given map (aside from rush distance).
I'd have to play the map to really form my opinion, but if what you're saying is true, it at least sounds like a bad map for Z.
--------------- Anyways, great to see this in the GSL. It's good for zerg if you have a 200/200 crackling fetish. Aside from that it is noticeably Zerg disadvantaged compared to P or T.
It's P favoured for P v Terran Bio however because it's forcefield-friendly everywhere on the map.
That being said, I don't feel it's that racially imbalanced compared to the other maps in that competition.
I am not gonna spoil anything, but the first GSL game played on this map (code S), was just epic. and the map looks stunning and solid. Hope that the players find it balanced and it would be exposed to international tournaments too.
I feel like air play will be pretty weak on this map because of the direct paths to enemy and lack of space behind , but I don't know if that's bad for any particular race, it might just promote more styles.
On January 09 2012 11:50 Chill wrote: ONE thing that history has taught me is that nobody can predict how maps will play out. So stop trying. The proof will be in the pudding soon enough.
Pretty much. As a BW mapper and SC2 mapper, you find that your maps never play out the way you expect them to. Even the best mappers can't predict what'll happen (cough, Battle Royal)
And Protoss4ever is awesome.
What's up with those stats? I never followed broodwar or anything, but 0 PvPs and 71 ZvZs? huh?
The only way to win as the other races would be to cheese. Even Flash lost to a mediocre Zerg on that map.
On January 10 2012 05:02 SeaSwift wrote: I feel like air play will be pretty weak on this map because of the direct paths to enemy and lack of space behind , but I don't know if that's bad for any particular race, it might just promote more styles.
Yep TvP air for me is like impossible The main is really well tucked in and like you said there's so many ground paths and not much air units can use to abuse the terrain.
On January 09 2012 23:07 Roberi wrote: I'm curious, do mapmakers get money for these maps? If so, about how much can one get? Obviously it's a great honor to have the map featured in these kinds of tournaments. I'm just wondering. Edit: There was one epic game on this map from today's GSL right? I forgot who was playing (BoxeR maybe), but I remember the game being good.
No tournaments do not pay anything T_T. Hope some tournaments take it upon themselves to correct this in 2012.
Would that actually be allowed by Blizzard?
It wouldn't suprise me if that was against the terms of use or whatever... :s
On January 09 2012 23:07 Roberi wrote: I'm curious, do mapmakers get money for these maps? If so, about how much can one get? Obviously it's a great honor to have the map featured in these kinds of tournaments. I'm just wondering. Edit: There was one epic game on this map from today's GSL right? I forgot who was playing (BoxeR maybe), but I remember the game being good.
No tournaments do not pay anything T_T. Hope some tournaments take it upon themselves to correct this in 2012.
Would that actually be allowed by Blizzard?
It wouldn't suprise me if that was against the terms of use or whatever... :s
What I like about this map is that there's land that actually FILLS the entire map and not have stupid big extra space where ground units can't reach. Most maps these days have those stupid big spaces and that's what makes the maps much smaller than they should be.
On January 09 2012 23:07 Roberi wrote: I'm curious, do mapmakers get money for these maps? If so, about how much can one get? Obviously it's a great honor to have the map featured in these kinds of tournaments. I'm just wondering. Edit: There was one epic game on this map from today's GSL right? I forgot who was playing (BoxeR maybe), but I remember the game being good.
No tournaments do not pay anything T_T. Hope some tournaments take it upon themselves to correct this in 2012.
How much would you expect to be paid per map for a tournament, just out of interest?
On January 09 2012 23:07 Roberi wrote: I'm curious, do mapmakers get money for these maps? If so, about how much can one get? Obviously it's a great honor to have the map featured in these kinds of tournaments. I'm just wondering. Edit: There was one epic game on this map from today's GSL right? I forgot who was playing (BoxeR maybe), but I remember the game being good.
No tournaments do not pay anything T_T. Hope some tournaments take it upon themselves to correct this in 2012.
How much would you expect to be paid per map for a tournament, just out of interest?
He can sell his ability to make maps. He can't sell the map per say.
On January 09 2012 23:07 Roberi wrote: I'm curious, do mapmakers get money for these maps? If so, about how much can one get? Obviously it's a great honor to have the map featured in these kinds of tournaments. I'm just wondering. Edit: There was one epic game on this map from today's GSL right? I forgot who was playing (BoxeR maybe), but I remember the game being good.
No tournaments do not pay anything T_T. Hope some tournaments take it upon themselves to correct this in 2012.
How much would you expect to be paid per map for a tournament, just out of interest?
He can sell his ability to make maps. He can't sell the map per say.
EULA.
As you know large tournaments get special licenses that break many parts of the EULA. They can pay I am sure of that.
As for how much, idk, but currently the going price of $0 seems a tad low.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JBE6C.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fF4sb.jpg)
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The main is really well tucked in and like you said there's so many ground paths and not much air units can use to abuse the terrain.
