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On March 08 2012 23:52 krisss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 23:42 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 08 2012 23:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 08 2012 23:08 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 08 2012 23:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 08 2012 22:55 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 08 2012 22:48 marvellosity wrote:On March 08 2012 22:47 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 08 2012 22:40 marvellosity wrote:On March 08 2012 22:38 seiferoth10 wrote:
[quote]
It isn't. It's exactly the same, at least to this community. Unfortunately some people are trying to apply the definition used in the 1700s, and not the definition used in 2012 in the online gaming community. Which kinda makes it worse really, because the racism that is implied in the word 'nigger' is mostly (not completely) stamped out in the western world at least, whereas the homophobia implied in the word 'faggot' still runs much more rampant. Logically to me, it just makes the brouhaha here even worse :/ Nah, they don't carry the same weight as their root definitions. They're just general use derogatory terms in this community. Like "dickhead", do they actually mean your head is a penis? No. It's just a general use derogatory term. The root definitions being the bullying gay kids receive in school that black kids don't really anymore? To me, current issues carry more weight than past ones (however important!) Cool, you acknowledge the importance of time, now think about setting. If someone called you a faggot online, would you be offended? I think you would, but you shouldn't. It's impossible that they know you are actually homosexual, so they're not actually insulting an attribute associated with your person. They're frustrated and their only recourse is to throw out a general use derogatory term. The only way I could explain this simpler is on the internet these terms are like birdshot out of a shotgun, whereas if someone in real life who actually knew your situation used it on you, it would be like a sniper rifle. What does more damage, birdshot or a 50 cal bullet to the head? So calling every single person a slur online is okay, because the jerk can't *possibly* truly mean it, because he doesn't know their true identities? It only matters when they know you? What the hell is wrong with you? People need to be educated so that they know that even saying those things to strangers isn't acceptable. It doesn't change the fact that the jerk is using slurs offensively, which shows his intent to put you down using a slur. Since when are slurs used as compliments? How often are you playing a game of StarCraft, and your opponent says "gl hf, my fellow #$%(^# !  " Of course you don't see that. You're going to see slurs when your opponent is being a bad-mannered jackass. You're going to see "stfu $%^&*)" and that's that. You have a right to be offended at his terminology, but you may be able to brush it off because he's clearly just an ignorant, immature sore loser. Do you know what derogatory means? And, it's a general insult, not a personal insult. It's still an insult, but it's not a heat seeking missile insult directed at a quality of your person intended to offend you. They're using derogatory words. They're degrading and critical and belittling. Maybe I don't feel it as much as a black or gay person would, but obviously the lashing out is there, and the jerk feels it's appropriate to use certain slurs to offend people. And for you to think that only black people have a right to be insulted when the word "nigger" is spoken, or that only gay people should be insulted when the word "faggot" is spewed is- quite frankly- shocking. How would civil rights ever come about if not for the fact that *other people* stepped up and said "Hey, what we're doing and saying to this group of people is utter bullshit"? I'm offended when people say those things- not because I'm black or gay (I'm a straight white guy)- but because it's uneducated filth. And I'm going to be a teacher and a parent, so I have to be able to teach others why it's unacceptable as a collective. You don't get to *get away with it* just because you said it to a stranger, or to a white guy or a straight guy. So *you* don't get to tell other people "Nah don't worry about it; it wasn't meant to offend you." It should offend everyone, because it's hurting someone. Alright then, well good luck on your quest to uplift the world's vocabulary, that's truly a lofty goal. I'm merely explaining the context that people use these words in the online gaming community, if you're determined to be offended by it that's your prerogative. I still think you're too focused on the fact that the word is "nigger", and not on the fact that it is just a general insult used in the online gaming community (like nigger, faggot, dickhead, cunt, twat, bitch and whatever else tickles your fancy). This isn't real life, this is the internet. You can't police people's vocabulary on the internet. If someone calls me a "faggot" in real life my level of offendedness (is that a word? I might have meant "offense) would be 10/10, but if someone calls me a "faggot" on the internet, my level of offendedness would be 1/10. If someone insults me over the internet I wouldn't lose any sleep at night, unfortunately you're in for many sleepless nights with your sensitivity to internet slang. You right, there are a lot of idiots out there in the internet, calling each other nigger and faggot. We cant change that. But what we can do is chosing the casters for our tournaments wisely. My vote goes for a non-idiot. And most people would agree. So orb is the wrong choice.
Orb doesn't bm when he's casting at all. He'll make judgements like this is good that is bad but that's what casting is supposed to do. Fact is orb has shown considerable knowledge and talent for casting so go away.
And it amazes me how people don't give people the benefit of the doubt, when I'm sure you've been in a position where someone has become very offended by what you said without context or being overly sensitive.
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On March 08 2012 23:25 kobrakai wrote:
Jesus Christ. (Does that offend every Christian in this thread?)
Never knew that the SC2 community was so sensitive.
Whether you like it or not, the words faggot and nigger are part of most young peoples vocabulary.
You can get all high and mighty about it if you want, but wont change that fact.
It wasn't being streamed it was in a private game.
Get over yourselves.
^ this
Everyone needs to drop the pitchforks.
As a player I sometimes rage pretty hard and say awful shit to my opponents.
Whether or not its deserved is irrelevant but I personally stopped because I decided that on the receiving end was another human being and that didn't make me feel good.
The reality is they are just words, yes we intentionally use them to degrade others...
Welcome to the real world, now go find something else better to do with yourselves than starting a witch hunt........
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On March 08 2012 23:42 seiferoth10 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 23:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 08 2012 23:08 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 08 2012 23:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 08 2012 22:55 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 08 2012 22:48 marvellosity wrote:On March 08 2012 22:47 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 08 2012 22:40 marvellosity wrote:On March 08 2012 22:38 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 08 2012 22:36 marvellosity wrote:
As a gay dude, I'm curious why the use of the word 'nigger' (racial biggotry) is infinitely worse than 'faggot' (sexuality biggotry).
We're supposed to sit there and take it, while one use of 'nigger' is world-ending? Nice guys, nice :/ It isn't. It's exactly the same, at least to this community. Unfortunately some people are trying to apply the definition used in the 1700s, and not the definition used in 2012 in the online gaming community. Which kinda makes it worse really, because the racism that is implied in the word 'nigger' is mostly (not completely) stamped out in the western world at least, whereas the homophobia implied in the word 'faggot' still runs much more rampant. Logically to me, it just makes the brouhaha here even worse :/ Nah, they don't carry the same weight as their root definitions. They're just general use derogatory terms in this community. Like "dickhead", do they actually mean your head is a penis? No. It's just a general use derogatory term. The root definitions being the bullying gay kids receive in school that black kids don't really anymore? To me, current issues carry more weight than past ones (however important!) Cool, you acknowledge the importance of time, now think about setting. If someone called you a faggot online, would you be offended? I think you would, but you shouldn't. It's impossible that they know you are actually homosexual, so they're not actually insulting an attribute associated with your person. They're frustrated and their only recourse is to throw out a general use derogatory term. The only way I could explain this simpler is on the internet these terms are like birdshot out of a shotgun, whereas if someone in real life who actually knew your situation used it on you, it would be like a sniper rifle. What does more damage, birdshot or a 50 cal bullet to the head? So calling every single person a slur online is okay, because the jerk can't *possibly* truly mean it, because he doesn't know their true identities? It only matters when they know you? What the hell is wrong with you? People need to be educated so that they know that even saying those things to strangers isn't acceptable. It doesn't change the fact that the jerk is using slurs offensively, which shows his intent to put you down using a slur. Since when are slurs used as compliments? How often are you playing a game of StarCraft, and your opponent says "gl hf, my fellow #$%(^# ! " Of course you don't see that. You're going to see slurs when your opponent is being a bad-mannered jackass. You're going to see "stfu $%^&*)" and that's that. You have a right to be offended at his terminology, but you may be able to brush it off because he's clearly just an ignorant, immature sore loser. Do you know what derogatory means? And, it's a general insult, not a personal insult. It's still an insult, but it's not a heat seeking missile insult directed at a quality of your person intended to offend you. They're using derogatory words. They're degrading and critical and belittling. Maybe I don't feel it as much as a black or gay person would, but obviously the lashing out is there, and the jerk feels it's appropriate to use certain slurs to offend people. And for you to think that only black people have a right to be insulted when the word "nigger" is spoken, or that only gay people should be insulted when the word "faggot" is spewed is- quite frankly- shocking. How would civil rights ever come about if not for the fact that *other people* stepped up and said "Hey, what we're doing and saying to this group of people is utter bullshit"? I'm offended when people say those things- not because I'm black or gay (I'm a straight white guy)- but because it's uneducated filth. And I'm going to be a teacher and a parent, so I have to be able to teach others why it's unacceptable as a collective. You don't get to *get away with it* just because you said it to a stranger, or to a white guy or a straight guy. So *you* don't get to tell other people "Nah don't worry about it; it wasn't meant to offend you." It should offend everyone, because it's hurting someone. Alright then, well good luck on your quest to uplift the world's vocabulary, that's truly a lofty goal. I'm merely explaining the context that people use these words in the online gaming community, if you're determined to be offended by it that's your prerogative. I still think you're too focused on the fact that the word is "nigger", and not on the fact that it is just a general insult used in the online gaming community (like nigger, faggot, dickhead, cunt, twat, bitch and whatever else tickles your fancy). This isn't real life, this is the internet. You can't police people's vocabulary on the internet. If someone calls me a "faggot" in real life my level of offendedness (is that a word? I might have meant "offense) would be 10/10, but if someone calls me a "faggot" on the internet, my level of offendedness would be 1/10. If someone insults me over the internet I wouldn't lose any sleep at night, unfortunately you're in for many sleepless nights with your sensitivity to internet slang.
I'm certainly not as offended as if I witness racism in person, and I don't lose sleep over StarCraft BM either, but I'm not going to condone the behavior- or even say it's acceptable- because it's not. I'm well aware that tracking down frustrated virtual losers who throw out bigoted remarks as general insults won't do any good (especially if they can ignore you on StarCraft), but you don't shrug it off when you see the consequences and you can actually talk to someone who'll listen.
Apparently you think that just because you said it over the internet means that you can get away with saying anything, which is utterly ridiculous. Calling someone a slur online as "internet slang" still has very real repercussions (as we see here with orb). You don't get to say anything you want *because* it's the internet. A lot of the time you'll get away with it, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable for you to be a jackass. Obviously, it's fantastic to understand that people enjoy saying things they don't mean and having looser lips, because you can't take everything personally, but that doesn't exempt people from the responsibility of their own words and actions.
Plenty of adult jobs advise their employees to be incredibly careful with what they say or post online (e.g. on Facebook or public forums) because you *don't* get a free pass *just because it's the internet*. Try being a teacher and posting a status about how you hate "niggers and faggots", even if there aren't any black or gay students in your school. Just a general insult right? Not aimed at anyone in particular? See how much longer you have a job. I don't think you quite understand how the real world works, if you think people shouldn't care about what's posted on the internet simply by virtue of it *not being real life*. The internet is part of real life, sorry buddy.
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On March 08 2012 23:25 kobrakai wrote:
Jesus Christ. (Does that offend every Christian in this thread?)
Never knew that the SC2 community was so sensitive.
Whether you like it or not, the words faggot and nigger are part of most young peoples vocabulary.
You can get all high and mighty about it if you want, but wont change that fact.
It wasn't being streamed it was in a private game.
Get over yourselves.
But then he lies about it, telling his employer and the community that it was someone else. That's the really ugly part and the point of no return in my opinion. I don't think that a person with that character has a place here (especially not when including his general behavior like calling others "retard", "mentally deficient" and whatnot in streams and on forums to that). We need to weed this shit out.
On March 08 2012 23:58 avc wrote:I've never had anything against Orb and even after 'orbgate' began I was just waiting for him to come out with a statement like this: + Show Spoiler +"Like many of you, I've raged at people on the ladder, I've said things I am not proud of and I've behaved in an inconsiderate and immature way. This particular event happened before I was employed by EG and whilst I cannot change what I said, I can apologise for my actions and make the promise to reform my character as I'm now in a privileged position that demands I show respect and maturity. I've had a discussion with EG's management and while they aren't thrilled, they recognise this was in the past and as long as I continue to demonstrate that I have changed, no action will be taken against me.
Once again, I'm sorry to everyone I have offended with the comments I made, I hope you can agree to judge me on my current actions and not my past."
A statement like that would have shut down most of the issues right away. Yes, people would still be raging over it, but most would understand that it was in the past and that change has been promised. They'd be watching to wait for you to screw up again perhaps, but they'd drop the issue pretty damn quickly and you could get on with your life.
Unfortunately what happened was a series of misguided excuses and lies. I believe it's these that have seen what could have been a simple blip in Orb's career, turn into a long term witch hunt which likely wont be dropped any time soon.
Orb chose to try and lie his way out of it and even attempted to destroy the evidence of his wrong doing. It's this that has most people up in arms. Everyone can recognise that people have made mistakes in the past, we've all done it, apologies generally have to be accepted and second chances given. If you choose the path of lies and deceit to try and avoid admitting your wrongs then you're going to be in for a world of hassle, because people really do not like brazen lies in such situations.
Personally I can forgive Orb's trash talk and rage from ladder play, as Wheat has said, it's something almost all of us have done at least once or twice in our gaming careers. What I'm not comfortable with is the way he decided to brazenly try to lie his way out of it, even though there was proof that he did it. You simply can't walk between "someone is impersonating me", "it wasn't me, it was my friend on my account", "I was drunk, it was late at night" and "he called me the n-word first" and expect people to drop the issue without giving you some serious hassle over it.
Those who are defending Orb for what he said in the past, I think the majority of the community is in agreement that it was in the past and it should be dropped. The issue now is how he has repeatedly tried to lie his way out of it and cover it up, rather than admitting it and moving on.
This. Great post.
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There's so many kids in this thread who've never lived in the real world and worked a real job as a professional person so somehow they've developed the bizzare idea that using language like this is mainstream and okay.
It's not. Grow up.
ESports will never ever be mainstream when it's infested with people like this.
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imo, whenever you call someone fag or nigger, you're saying that it's bad to be either homosexual or black, and that the person you're insulting is one of them. some people get upset at this because
1. they feel insulted that someone would want to insult them
2. they get upset because they disagree that being these things is bad and that the person saying these words is a terrible human being or
3. they are racist/homophobic and genuinely feel that it's derogatory.
i dunno. i don't take offense if anyone calls me these words in order to get me mad, but i'd definitively wouldn't want anything to do with anyone using them in any sort of serious context. so yeah, if you're in any way aspiring to be a public figure like orb is you should not say stuff like this. look at politicians, they get screwed if they have a parking ticket, here at least...
that being said, this thread has devolved into a hate-fest with peeple hating on orb, people hating on people hating on orb, people hating people who hates the word nigger, people hating people who hates people who hates the word nigger etc. just calm down. he made a mistake, whether that be streaming while drunk, streaming while angry or lending his account over to someone else, and then he lied about it. it was a idiotic mistake and it wasn't very well handled, i'll agree, but, at least try to keep the discussion civil..
knowing this community, this will die down in like a day or two though, unless some kind of further information is provided.
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What is all this proof people keep mentioning? I saw a screenshot of him watching some replay with no actual chat log or player names, coupled with a low quality 30-second fraps'd clip of a vod of him talking to an EG member on skype with a replay paused in the background. Aside from that, everyone's just shouting about this "proof", calling him a virgin, and saying he should relinquish his right to exist. Total witch hunt.
I've watched orb since the very beginning of beta and I've loved his stream for the content AND the rage, and I can honestly say I don't disbelieve his story about his friend using the account for several reasons. The chat log that I read sounds somewhat like what orb would say, but I've never heard him ever lose his cool (hear me out). He rages after losses, yeah, ok. But he vents, moves on, sometimes he tilts but that's it. He never flies off the handle and says he would 100% legitimately like to see someone die and call them a nigger.
I guarantee most orb fans would agree with me on this, and all the people that are part of this witch hunt are just jumping on the bandwagon and either A) Don't watch his stream and only see his casting, B) Have never seen any of his content but have heard his name throughout the community, or C) Just have no clue whatsoever but are trying to justify picking up their pitchforks with the rest of TL/Reddit
This is honestly one of the most ignorance-fueled, waste-of-space, overhyped topics I've ever seen on TL. Orb's tried for so long to get in a good spot in the TL/SC2 community and has provided a lot for us along the way, so my message to all the sub-100 posters getting up in a tiff about the sanctity of YOUR internet forum, chill.the.fuck.out
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On March 09 2012 00:14 Stropheum wrote:
What is all this proof people keep mentioning? I saw a screenshot of him watching some replay with no actual chat log or player names, coupled with a low quality 30-second fraps'd clip of a vod of him talking to an EG member on skype with a replay paused in the background. Aside from that, everyone's just shouting about this "proof", calling him a virgin, and saying he should relinquish his right to exist. Total witch hunt.
I've watched orb since the very beginning of beta and I've loved his stream for the content AND the rage, and I can honestly say I don't disbelieve his story about his friend using the account for several reasons. The chat log that I read sounds somewhat like what orb would say, but I've never heard him ever lose his cool (hear me out). He rages after losses, yeah, ok. But he vents, moves on, sometimes he tilts but that's it. He never flies off the handle and says he would 100% legitimately like to see someone die and call them a nigger.
I guarantee most orb fans would agree with me on this, and all the people that are part of this witch hunt are just jumping on the bandwagon and either A) Don't watch his stream and only see his casting, B) Have never seen any of his content but have heard his name throughout the community, or C) Just have no clue whatsoever but are trying to justify picking up their pitchforks with the rest of TL/Reddit
This is honestly one of the most ignorance-fueled, waste-of-space, overhyped topics I've ever seen on TL. Orb's tried for so long to get in a good spot in the TL/SC2 community and has provided a lot for us along the way, so my message to all the sub-100 posters getting up in a tiff about the sanctity of YOUR internet forum, chill.the.fuck.out
He already admitted it was him, those were all lies. Which seems to be a theme, concede as much as he must and lie about the rest. It's not working out too well though
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/qmvdb/orb_really_loves_the_n_word_on_ladder/c3yvceg
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On March 09 2012 00:08 Seraphone wrote:
There's so many kids in this thread who've never lived in the real world and worked a real job as a professional person so somehow they've developed the bizzare idea that using language like this is mainstream and okay.
It's not. Grow up.
ESports will never ever be mainstream when it's infested with people like this.
He wasn't working.
It was in private.
I bet you say things every day that offend some people.
It's a personal choice whether to be offended or not by a word.
People are so fucking sensitive.
Oh also do I have to link you to the tweets of PROFESSIONAL footballers who are contracted to clubs like Manchester Utd/ Liverpool etc who have used homophobic and racist vocabulary on their twitters?
Having people who use such language is not preventing e sports going mainstream.
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On March 09 2012 00:23 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 00:14 Stropheum wrote:
What is all this proof people keep mentioning? I saw a screenshot of him watching some replay with no actual chat log or player names, coupled with a low quality 30-second fraps'd clip of a vod of him talking to an EG member on skype with a replay paused in the background. Aside from that, everyone's just shouting about this "proof", calling him a virgin, and saying he should relinquish his right to exist. Total witch hunt.
I've watched orb since the very beginning of beta and I've loved his stream for the content AND the rage, and I can honestly say I don't disbelieve his story about his friend using the account for several reasons. The chat log that I read sounds somewhat like what orb would say, but I've never heard him ever lose his cool (hear me out). He rages after losses, yeah, ok. But he vents, moves on, sometimes he tilts but that's it. He never flies off the handle and says he would 100% legitimately like to see someone die and call them a nigger.
I guarantee most orb fans would agree with me on this, and all the people that are part of this witch hunt are just jumping on the bandwagon and either A) Don't watch his stream and only see his casting, B) Have never seen any of his content but have heard his name throughout the community, or C) Just have no clue whatsoever but are trying to justify picking up their pitchforks with the rest of TL/Reddit
This is honestly one of the most ignorance-fueled, waste-of-space, overhyped topics I've ever seen on TL. Orb's tried for so long to get in a good spot in the TL/SC2 community and has provided a lot for us along the way, so my message to all the sub-100 posters getting up in a tiff about the sanctity of YOUR internet forum, chill.the.fuck.out He already admitted it was him, those were all lies. Which seems to be a theme, concede as much as he must and lie about the rest. It's not working out too well though http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/qmvdb/orb_really_loves_the_n_word_on_ladder/c3yvceg
Huh. That's a pretty good honest apology right there. What is this issue again? Is this apology not good enough? Seriously, what is the deal here?
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On March 09 2012 00:25 kobrakai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 00:08 Seraphone wrote:
There's so many kids in this thread who've never lived in the real world and worked a real job as a professional person so somehow they've developed the bizzare idea that using language like this is mainstream and okay.
It's not. Grow up.
ESports will never ever be mainstream when it's infested with people like this. He wasn't working. It was in private. I bet you say things every day that offend some people. It's a personal choice whether to be offended or not by a word. People are so fucking sensitive. Oh also do I have to link you to the tweets of PROFESSIONAL footballers who are contracted to clubs like Manchester Utd/ Liverpool etc who have used homophobic and racist vocabulary on their twitters? Having people who use such language is not preventing e sports going mainstream.
Do you not understand that someone contracted by a team represents that team at all times? And sponsors?
Being offended is a choice? Yeah man, blame the victims, not the bullies.
Footballers who use slurs should be penalized just the same as anyone else, and athletes have been in the past. Football is already WAY mainstream, as opposed to SC2 which is barely getting off the ground. You can't compare an established sport to a new e-sport in terms of some people being unprofessional and it hurting the image greatly.
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On March 09 2012 00:29 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 00:23 floor exercise wrote:On March 09 2012 00:14 Stropheum wrote:
What is all this proof people keep mentioning? I saw a screenshot of him watching some replay with no actual chat log or player names, coupled with a low quality 30-second fraps'd clip of a vod of him talking to an EG member on skype with a replay paused in the background. Aside from that, everyone's just shouting about this "proof", calling him a virgin, and saying he should relinquish his right to exist. Total witch hunt.
I've watched orb since the very beginning of beta and I've loved his stream for the content AND the rage, and I can honestly say I don't disbelieve his story about his friend using the account for several reasons. The chat log that I read sounds somewhat like what orb would say, but I've never heard him ever lose his cool (hear me out). He rages after losses, yeah, ok. But he vents, moves on, sometimes he tilts but that's it. He never flies off the handle and says he would 100% legitimately like to see someone die and call them a nigger.
I guarantee most orb fans would agree with me on this, and all the people that are part of this witch hunt are just jumping on the bandwagon and either A) Don't watch his stream and only see his casting, B) Have never seen any of his content but have heard his name throughout the community, or C) Just have no clue whatsoever but are trying to justify picking up their pitchforks with the rest of TL/Reddit
This is honestly one of the most ignorance-fueled, waste-of-space, overhyped topics I've ever seen on TL. Orb's tried for so long to get in a good spot in the TL/SC2 community and has provided a lot for us along the way, so my message to all the sub-100 posters getting up in a tiff about the sanctity of YOUR internet forum, chill.the.fuck.out He already admitted it was him, those were all lies. Which seems to be a theme, concede as much as he must and lie about the rest. It's not working out too well though http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/qmvdb/orb_really_loves_the_n_word_on_ladder/c3yvceg Huh. That's a pretty good honest apology right there. What is this issue again? Is this apology not good enough? Seriously, what is the deal here?
Did you even get as far as the first reply where the opponent refutes basically all of his excuses. How is that an honest apology at all? In what world is an apology full of made up excuses honest
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hypocrites everywhere, where do they all come from?
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On March 09 2012 00:31 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 00:29 DoubleReed wrote:On March 09 2012 00:23 floor exercise wrote:On March 09 2012 00:14 Stropheum wrote:
What is all this proof people keep mentioning? I saw a screenshot of him watching some replay with no actual chat log or player names, coupled with a low quality 30-second fraps'd clip of a vod of him talking to an EG member on skype with a replay paused in the background. Aside from that, everyone's just shouting about this "proof", calling him a virgin, and saying he should relinquish his right to exist. Total witch hunt.
I've watched orb since the very beginning of beta and I've loved his stream for the content AND the rage, and I can honestly say I don't disbelieve his story about his friend using the account for several reasons. The chat log that I read sounds somewhat like what orb would say, but I've never heard him ever lose his cool (hear me out). He rages after losses, yeah, ok. But he vents, moves on, sometimes he tilts but that's it. He never flies off the handle and says he would 100% legitimately like to see someone die and call them a nigger.
I guarantee most orb fans would agree with me on this, and all the people that are part of this witch hunt are just jumping on the bandwagon and either A) Don't watch his stream and only see his casting, B) Have never seen any of his content but have heard his name throughout the community, or C) Just have no clue whatsoever but are trying to justify picking up their pitchforks with the rest of TL/Reddit
This is honestly one of the most ignorance-fueled, waste-of-space, overhyped topics I've ever seen on TL. Orb's tried for so long to get in a good spot in the TL/SC2 community and has provided a lot for us along the way, so my message to all the sub-100 posters getting up in a tiff about the sanctity of YOUR internet forum, chill.the.fuck.out He already admitted it was him, those were all lies. Which seems to be a theme, concede as much as he must and lie about the rest. It's not working out too well though http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/qmvdb/orb_really_loves_the_n_word_on_ladder/c3yvceg Huh. That's a pretty good honest apology right there. What is this issue again? Is this apology not good enough? Seriously, what is the deal here? Did you even get as far as the first reply where the opponent refutes basically all of his excuses. How is that an honest apology at all? In what world is an apology full of made up excuses honest
Made up excuses? Where? He specifically says that certain items are not to be taken as excusing his actions.
I read the replies. They don't actually address anything he says. They just keep berating him with insults.
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if the first comment in your opinion doesn't directly address some of the myriad reasons why he had to refer to his opponent as a dumb nigger then you are basically just reading what you want to read, which I can't and won't argue with. I don't know how I can possibly respond to you when your arguments are seemingly based on your own version of reality.
I concede, you win. Left is right, lies are honesty, and Orb is a victim
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On March 09 2012 00:41 floor exercise wrote:
if the first comment in your opinion doesn't directly address some of the myriad reasons why he had to refer to his opponent as a dumb nigger then you are basically just reading what you want to read, which I can't and won't argue with. I don't know how I can possibly respond to you when your arguments are seemingly based on your own version of reality.
I concede, you win. Left is right, lies are honesty, and Orb is a victim
No it really doesn't. Saying that all other casters have dealt with their issues is not really an argument. Orb never said anything about that. Casting is a job, and it's not at all fair to destroy someone's job by pointing out issues with their private life unless it actually affects what they're doing. He explicitly says that it is not affecting his casting so his job is irrelevant in that respect.
Referring to destiny and spades is not meant as an excuse. He even explicit says so. He's pointing out a blatant double standard that people refuse to address and instead ignore so they berate him with more insults. Maybe people expected him to beg for forgiveness?
Come on. Do you really think orb is racist? Really?
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On March 09 2012 00:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 23:42 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 08 2012 23:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 08 2012 23:08 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 08 2012 23:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 08 2012 22:55 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 08 2012 22:48 marvellosity wrote:On March 08 2012 22:47 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 08 2012 22:40 marvellosity wrote:On March 08 2012 22:38 seiferoth10 wrote:
[quote]
It isn't. It's exactly the same, at least to this community. Unfortunately some people are trying to apply the definition used in the 1700s, and not the definition used in 2012 in the online gaming community. Which kinda makes it worse really, because the racism that is implied in the word 'nigger' is mostly (not completely) stamped out in the western world at least, whereas the homophobia implied in the word 'faggot' still runs much more rampant. Logically to me, it just makes the brouhaha here even worse :/ Nah, they don't carry the same weight as their root definitions. They're just general use derogatory terms in this community. Like "dickhead", do they actually mean your head is a penis? No. It's just a general use derogatory term. The root definitions being the bullying gay kids receive in school that black kids don't really anymore? To me, current issues carry more weight than past ones (however important!) Cool, you acknowledge the importance of time, now think about setting. If someone called you a faggot online, would you be offended? I think you would, but you shouldn't. It's impossible that they know you are actually homosexual, so they're not actually insulting an attribute associated with your person. They're frustrated and their only recourse is to throw out a general use derogatory term. The only way I could explain this simpler is on the internet these terms are like birdshot out of a shotgun, whereas if someone in real life who actually knew your situation used it on you, it would be like a sniper rifle. What does more damage, birdshot or a 50 cal bullet to the head? So calling every single person a slur online is okay, because the jerk can't *possibly* truly mean it, because he doesn't know their true identities? It only matters when they know you? What the hell is wrong with you? People need to be educated so that they know that even saying those things to strangers isn't acceptable. It doesn't change the fact that the jerk is using slurs offensively, which shows his intent to put you down using a slur. Since when are slurs used as compliments? How often are you playing a game of StarCraft, and your opponent says "gl hf, my fellow #$%(^# ! " Of course you don't see that. You're going to see slurs when your opponent is being a bad-mannered jackass. You're going to see "stfu $%^&*)" and that's that. You have a right to be offended at his terminology, but you may be able to brush it off because he's clearly just an ignorant, immature sore loser. Do you know what derogatory means? And, it's a general insult, not a personal insult. It's still an insult, but it's not a heat seeking missile insult directed at a quality of your person intended to offend you. They're using derogatory words. They're degrading and critical and belittling. Maybe I don't feel it as much as a black or gay person would, but obviously the lashing out is there, and the jerk feels it's appropriate to use certain slurs to offend people. And for you to think that only black people have a right to be insulted when the word "nigger" is spoken, or that only gay people should be insulted when the word "faggot" is spewed is- quite frankly- shocking. How would civil rights ever come about if not for the fact that *other people* stepped up and said "Hey, what we're doing and saying to this group of people is utter bullshit"? I'm offended when people say those things- not because I'm black or gay (I'm a straight white guy)- but because it's uneducated filth. And I'm going to be a teacher and a parent, so I have to be able to teach others why it's unacceptable as a collective. You don't get to *get away with it* just because you said it to a stranger, or to a white guy or a straight guy. So *you* don't get to tell other people "Nah don't worry about it; it wasn't meant to offend you." It should offend everyone, because it's hurting someone. Alright then, well good luck on your quest to uplift the world's vocabulary, that's truly a lofty goal. I'm merely explaining the context that people use these words in the online gaming community, if you're determined to be offended by it that's your prerogative. I still think you're too focused on the fact that the word is "nigger", and not on the fact that it is just a general insult used in the online gaming community (like nigger, faggot, dickhead, cunt, twat, bitch and whatever else tickles your fancy). This isn't real life, this is the internet. You can't police people's vocabulary on the internet. If someone calls me a "faggot" in real life my level of offendedness (is that a word? I might have meant "offense) would be 10/10, but if someone calls me a "faggot" on the internet, my level of offendedness would be 1/10. If someone insults me over the internet I wouldn't lose any sleep at night, unfortunately you're in for many sleepless nights with your sensitivity to internet slang. I'm certainly not as offended as if I witness racism in person, and I don't lose sleep over StarCraft BM either, but I'm not going to condone the behavior- or even say it's acceptable- because it's not. I'm well aware that tracking down frustrated virtual losers who throw out bigoted remarks as general insults won't do any good (especially if they can ignore you on StarCraft), but you don't shrug it off when you see the consequences and you can actually talk to someone who'll listen. Apparently you think that just because you said it over the internet means that you can get away with saying anything, which is utterly ridiculous. Calling someone a slur online as "internet slang" still has very real repercussions (as we see here with orb). You don't get to say anything you want *because* it's the internet. A lot of the time you'll get away with it, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable for you to be a jackass. Obviously, it's fantastic to understand that people enjoy saying things they don't mean and having looser lips, because you can't take everything personally, but that doesn't exempt people from the responsibility of their own words and actions. Plenty of adult jobs advise their employees to be incredibly careful with what they say or post online (e.g. on Facebook or public forums) because you *don't* get a free pass *just because it's the internet*. Try being a teacher and posting a status about how you hate "niggers and faggots", even if there aren't any black or gay students in your school. Just a general insult right? Not aimed at anyone in particular? See how much longer you have a job. I don't think you quite understand how the real world works, if you think people shouldn't care about what's posted on the internet simply by virtue of it *not being real life*. The internet is part of real life, sorry buddy.
Facebook is like the anti-internet. It's a collection of real life friends that you can interact with on the internet. Also, there is a distinction between your professional life and your casual life. Even if you used that terminology in your casual life (calling your buddies "faggot" when they prank you, or whatever situation you want), why would you post that where your professional life can retrieve it? That's not posting on the internet, that's like sending a letter to your real life contacts.
Also, I never said that it was okay. I said it was a 1/10 on a 10 scale. There is still offense there, but it's not nearly anywhere deserving of the resulting witch hunt it garnered.
And, I like your underhanded comments of what you perceive is my inexperience in life. It's okay, it is the internet after all, I'm not offended. Or I should say, I'm 1/10 offended on a 10 scale.
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On March 09 2012 00:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 00:25 kobrakai wrote:On March 09 2012 00:08 Seraphone wrote:
There's so many kids in this thread who've never lived in the real world and worked a real job as a professional person so somehow they've developed the bizzare idea that using language like this is mainstream and okay.
It's not. Grow up.
ESports will never ever be mainstream when it's infested with people like this. He wasn't working. It was in private. I bet you say things every day that offend some people. It's a personal choice whether to be offended or not by a word. People are so fucking sensitive. Oh also do I have to link you to the tweets of PROFESSIONAL footballers who are contracted to clubs like Manchester Utd/ Liverpool etc who have used homophobic and racist vocabulary on their twitters? Having people who use such language is not preventing e sports going mainstream. Do you not understand that someone contracted by a team represents that team at all times? And sponsors? Being offended is a choice? Yeah man, blame the victims, not the bullies. Footballers who use slurs should be penalized just the same as anyone else, and athletes have been in the past. Football is already WAY mainstream, as opposed to SC2 which is barely getting off the ground. You can't compare an established sport to a new e-sport in terms of some people being unprofessional and it hurting the image greatly.
Even before they're under contract? The proof people are posting shows his webcam in his house in MD, not in the EG lair. This took place significantly before he was under contract with anybody or affiliated with sponsors.
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I think everyone here knows this is more about jealousy and getting orb fired than getting offended by the "n" word.
Really can't believe some of you, him writing the "n" word 1 time is so bad that you want to get him fired from casting ? That will ruin it for about 50 000 viewers that love his casting.
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The problem with this situation is, that a lot of us actually don't realize that there are people out there that would condone and even support this kind of behaviour, straight up. You can see them in this thread, trying to downplay it by saying it was just ladder or he didn't mean it that way, or some other bullshit excuse like that. There is absolutely no point in debating these people, they should just be ignored.
Not only is this behaviour unacceptable professionally, but highly undesirable in every other sense as well. I'm not prude, but I know the difference between a healthy rage and that disgusting tirade that orb showcased. That EG is not doing anything about this is really baffling. It doesn't matter if was on his stream or under private circumstances or whatever, you will not want to associate with a person like this.
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EPT
