EPTForGG joins oGs - Page 44
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Spuick
Norway357 Posts
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Tweleve
United States644 Posts
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
On October 01 2011 00:53 Tweleve wrote: It might be one more Terran but hopefully he can bring something to the table that the other Terrans don't Maybe he'll begin his first few Code S seasons by volunteering to knock out inferior terrans  | ||
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nimbus99
Canada194 Posts
hes gonna be terran? | ||
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Terranasaur
United States2085 Posts
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seRapH
United States9828 Posts
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Spinoza
667 Posts
fOrGG, like Boxer, NaDa and July, has gone through the most competitive e-sport ever - Broodwar - to win a major title, albeit in his case only once. My personal guess is the chemistry in KT Rolster did him in. This kid is however only 20yrs old or so, has one Major title to his resume (he killed Kal, Flash and Jaedong to get it) and played a lot of BW games against the very very best up until his retirement. If you think the Woongjin captain would feild MVP against fOrGG in a hypothetical series at that time when both were active, MVP would likely lose. A hypothetical universe has a foggy shape by its very nature, but is still interesting because all options can be explored with impunity: how would Brazilian Pele match up with Messi of Argentina say, or Superman vs Batman. The only telemetry we have to work with are the actual accomplishments of players. And this telemetry says that fOrGG is a genuinely more accomplished player in BW than MVP ever was irrespective of MVPs accomplishments in SC2. Conversely, MVP is the norm of accomplishment in SC2 while fOrGG has no norm at all in SC2 (not counting ladder). Well, are all accomplishments if existing, equal then? No, they are not. Recent accomplishments take precedence over distant ones. The similarity assumption underlies the next step: it is that qualities overlap such that "Similar experiences can guide future reasoning, problem solving and learning". In other words that if your "reasoning, problem solving and learning" can lead you to win Arena MSL in 2008, beating on the way as it were, Kal (protoss), Flash (terran) and Jaedong (Zerg), in that order, at the same time they could all be argued as the best of their respective races, then you should be regarded as a real contender in SC2 too. Why? Because of the similarity assumption, which is, I grant, an abstraction, but real much in the same way that shadows are real. But there is practical qualitative supporting evidence for this assumption too: all the GSL champions have had career's in BW previously, there are no GSL champions entirely absent a BW career, however limited it might seem after the fact. All the former BW burnouts past their prime, NaDa, July and Boxer are still making waves as solid A or S class players. There is clearly a shadow in play here. But also that recent accomplishments are more important than distant ones. However much I love SC2, the quantitative and qualitative data suggest there is a significant skill deficit versus top BW players assuming the similarity assumption ( I am repeating myself because this is important god damn it). fOrGG will be a datapoint to further our understanding of this complex issue. I highly doubt fOrGGs games will be boring though, given his BW record. GG HF GL Edit: There was a "without" within that I could do without, so I decided out with that and in with "with". | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225519¤tpage=127#2525 | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6667 Posts
On October 01 2011 03:53 Diamond wrote: He just signed up for the next Korean Weekly! 0_O http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225519¤tpage=127#2525 Wait like the Korean weekly that is going to be played in 6 hours??? Or the one after that? | ||
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Confuse
2238 Posts
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antilyon
Brazil2546 Posts
On October 01 2011 04:02 Necro)Phagist( wrote: Wait like the Korean weekly that is going to be played in 6 hours??? Or the one after that? The one after that, today is this week finals. | ||
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Mise
Finland580 Posts
On October 01 2011 03:24 Spinoza wrote:But there is practical qualitative supporting evidence for this assumption too: all the GSL champions have had career's in BW previously, there are no GSL champions entirely absent a BW career, however limited it might seem after the fact. This is false. Polt was a Warcraft 3 player and not even a notable one at that. | ||
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Spinoza
667 Posts
On October 01 2011 04:16 Mise wrote: This is false. Polt was a Warcraft 3 player and not even a notable one at that. I stand corrected! Exceptions are accepted in my model though, the pattern still holds. Thanks for the update. | ||
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sesmc
China61 Posts
On October 01 2011 03:24 Spinoza wrote: So the highest ranked BW pro to switch to sc2 to date is now confirmed as fOrGG. This could be either a switch of epic proportions or an equally epic fail. And how would we know? Given his stature, anything less than one or several major tournament titles is a disappointment, right? fOrGG, like Boxer, NaDa and July, has gone through the most competitive e-sport ever - Broodwar - to win a major title, albeit in his case only once. My personal guess is the chemistry in KT Rolster did him in. This kid is however only 20yrs old or so, has one Major title to his resume (he killed Kal, Flash and Jaedong to get it) and played a lot of BW games against the very very best up until his retirement. If you think the Woongjin captain would feild MVP against fOrGG in a hypothetical series at that time when both were active, MVP would likely lose. A hypothetical universe has a foggy shape by its very nature, but is still interesting because all options can be explored without impunity: how would Brazilian Pele match up with Messi of Argentina say, or Superman vs Batman. The only telemetry we have to work with are the actual accomplishments of players. And this telemetry says that fOrGG is a genuinely more accomplished player in BW than MVP ever was irrespective of MVPs accomplishments in SC2. Conversely, MVP is the norm of accomplishment in SC2 while fOrGG has no norm at all in SC2 (not counting ladder). Well, are all accomplishments if existing, equal then? No, they are not. Recent accomplishments take precedence over distant ones. The similarity assumption underlies the next step: it is that qualities overlap such that "Similar experiences can guide future reasoning, problem solving and learning". In other words that if your "reasoning, problem solving and learning" can lead you to win Arena MSL in 2008, beating on the way as it were, Kal (protoss), Flash (terran) and Jaedong (Zerg), in that order, at the same time they could all be argued as the best of their respective races, then you should be regarded as a real contender in SC2 too. Why? Because of the similarity assumption, which is, I grant, an abstraction, but real much in the same way that shadows are real. But there is practical qualitative supporting evidence for this assumption too: all the GSL champions have had career's in BW previously, there are no GSL champions entirely absent a BW career, however limited it might seem after the fact. All the former BW burnouts past their prime, NaDa, July and Boxer are still making waves as solid A or S class players. There is clearly a shadow in play here. But also that recent accomplishments are more important than distant ones. However much I love SC2, the quantitative and qualitative data suggest there is a significant skill deficit versus top BW players assuming the similarity assumption ( I am repeating myself because this is important god damn it). fOrGG will be a datapoint to further our understanding of this complex issue. I highly doubt fOrGGs games will be boring though, given his BW record. GG HF GL man, you really need to proof read, i do agree with your points though, looking forward to what he'll bring to the scene. one thing is for sure, he ain't no generic terran | ||
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spoolinoveryou
United States503 Posts
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RvB
Netherlands6322 Posts
On October 01 2011 03:24 Spinoza wrote: So the highest ranked BW pro to switch to sc2 to date is now confirmed as fOrGG. This could be either a switch of epic proportions or an equally epic fail. And how would we know? Given his stature, anything less than one or several major tournament titles is a disappointment, right? fOrGG, like Boxer, NaDa and July, has gone through the most competitive e-sport ever - Broodwar - to win a major title, albeit in his case only once. My personal guess is the chemistry in KT Rolster did him in. This kid is however only 20yrs old or so, has one Major title to his resume (he killed Kal, Flash and Jaedong to get it) and played a lot of BW games against the very very best up until his retirement. If you think the Woongjin captain would feild MVP against fOrGG in a hypothetical series at that time when both were active, MVP would likely lose. A hypothetical universe has a foggy shape by its very nature, but is still interesting because all options can be explored without impunity: how would Brazilian Pele match up with Messi of Argentina say, or Superman vs Batman. The only telemetry we have to work with are the actual accomplishments of players. And this telemetry says that fOrGG is a genuinely more accomplished player in BW than MVP ever was irrespective of MVPs accomplishments in SC2. Conversely, MVP is the norm of accomplishment in SC2 while fOrGG has no norm at all in SC2 (not counting ladder). Well, are all accomplishments if existing, equal then? No, they are not. Recent accomplishments take precedence over distant ones. The similarity assumption underlies the next step: it is that qualities overlap such that "Similar experiences can guide future reasoning, problem solving and learning". In other words that if your "reasoning, problem solving and learning" can lead you to win Arena MSL in 2008, beating on the way as it were, Kal (protoss), Flash (terran) and Jaedong (Zerg), in that order, at the same time they could all be argued as the best of their respective races, then you should be regarded as a real contender in SC2 too. Why? Because of the similarity assumption, which is, I grant, an abstraction, but real much in the same way that shadows are real. But there is practical qualitative supporting evidence for this assumption too: all the GSL champions have had career's in BW previously, there are no GSL champions entirely absent a BW career, however limited it might seem after the fact. All the former BW burnouts past their prime, NaDa, July and Boxer are still making waves as solid A or S class players. There is clearly a shadow in play here. But also that recent accomplishments are more important than distant ones. However much I love SC2, the quantitative and qualitative data suggest there is a significant skill deficit versus top BW players assuming the similarity assumption ( I am repeating myself because this is important god damn it). fOrGG will be a datapoint to further our understanding of this complex issue. I highly doubt fOrGGs games will be boring though, given his BW record. GG HF GL forgg isn't nearly as good as he was in his league run. By stating it like you are it looks like he could beat jaedong and flash consistently while he really wasn't close to that. | ||
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scDeluX
Canada1341 Posts
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Altern
United States1053 Posts
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On October 01 2011 05:18 RvB wrote: forgg isn't nearly as good as he was in his league run. By stating it like you are it looks like he could beat jaedong and flash consistently while he really wasn't close to that. fOrGG record vs Jaedong : 4-1 + 10-04-27 Shinhan09-10 Proleague Roadrunner Win + 09-03-22 Shinhan 2009 Winners .. Medusa Loss + 08-07-26 Arena MSL Tiamat Win + 08-07-26 Arena MSL Othello Win + 08-07-26 Arena MSL Colosseum Win vs Flash : 4-6 + 10-08-12 Bigfile MSL Polaris Rhapsody Loss + 10-08-12 Bigfile MSL Odd-Eye 3 Loss + 10-08-05 Bigfile MSL Fighting Spirit Loss + 09-02-08 Shinhan 2009 Winners .. Rush Hour 3 Loss + 08-07-17 Arena MSL Colosseum Win + 08-07-17 Arena MSL Othello Loss + 08-07-17 Arena MSL Tiamat Win + 08-07-17 Arena MSL Athena Win + 08-07-01 Shinhan08 Proleague Othello Win + 07-10-27 Shinhan07 Proleague R2 Python Loss vs Bisu : 6-3 + 10-10-16 Shinhan10-11 Proleague Circuit Breaker Loss + 08-08-08 WCG2008 Korea Blue Storm Win + 08-08-08 WCG2008 Korea Othello Win + 07-03-10 2007 2nd KeSPA Cup Tau Cross Win + 06-12-23 SKY2006 Proleague R2 Longinus Win + 06-11-29 ODT2006-2 Sin Peaks of Baekdu Win + 06-06-28 2006 Summer ODT Prelims Sin Pioneer Period Loss + 06-06-28 2006 Summer ODT Prelims 815 III Loss + 06-06-28 2006 Summer ODT Prelims Rush Hour 3 Win vs Stork : 2-9. So a combined 16-19 against TaekBangLeeSsang ?! And 14-10 against Bisu/JD/Flash ? YES he could beat Flash and JD consistently, please check your facts before supposing anything. Right it might be a few years ago... but name some players having a 50% record against TBLS please ? | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
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