On September 25 2011 16:20 Bonkerz wrote: Here we go spades being racist and physical threat how can be taken seriously with this stuff going on? http://imgur.com/TQKVz
On September 25 2011 17:02 Spades wrote: Hwangsin and I had a somewhat unfriendly series of games, and brought our argument to a chat channel, which in hindsight was obviously a bad idea. We went back and forth for a while, and I lost control and said something stupid. I've already talked to Scott(It's Gosu's manager) and there are no hard feelings, just a momentary case of bad judgement. I will personally apologize to HwangSin, and I will do my best not to act in an immature manner again.
Quote from Its Gosu Manager
On September 25 2011 17:13 RuMCaKe wrote: I have spoken with Spades, and as the manager of ItsGoSu, and a friend of RGN, and Spades as well. I know this is just a misunderstanding. Tempers flared, some wrong things were said, it happens. No hard feelings on our end, and I hope that people can let it go. People make mistakes, I know I sure do, and I am sure everyone else here does as well. No hard feelings!
Spades, lets have a beer at Orlando
What triggered this thread was that a semi pro/ high level terran on NA ladder on skype told me i should go kill myself which lead me to think about the question. The fact that we see pro players threatening each other when we as a community are still trying to gain legitimacy outside of the gaming world.
For our game what we love,to go to the next level, do we need people to mature. In other sports such as baseball or football, people dont say shit like this because it is a THREAT, and over the interenet it is no different, I doubt that anybody would come up to my face and tell me to kill myself.
Yeah sorry if this has been discussed but i feel it's worth a thread, What do you guys think?
Bonkerz
Well, while I have never heard a pro athlete tell someone to go kill themselves, pro sports in general are littered with extreme amounts of trash talk. Ever played football? When you line up before the hut, multitudes of some of the worst shit you have ever heard is said between the teams. Usually involving raping the other (lols) Hockey, boxing, mma etc. Infact the only sports I can think of where not to much trash talk is involved is tennis and baseball, and for obvious reasons. Trash talk is apart the sport, not to say I agree with someone telling another to go kill themselves, but trust me. I have heard much much worse.
But what players say between themselevs is one thing, but doing it publically is another...
"I don't Play top Players, nor will I in the near future, It clearly States that I'm mid masters, this isn't intended for GM players, this is intended for those who aren't as good as you. And I realize that the zergs I play aren't as GOOD as the zergs you play."
I don't see how that makes me butthurt. I got on your stream today to learn instead the second i log into chat you called me a fucking baddy and I will never be as good as you, before I even said a WORD to you. Then you constantly blame every loss you got on ladder on your stream viewers ( hence why you will only ever have 5) I mean this thread isn't even about you anymore, I just faced the fact that you probably have had a bad childhood or some other psychological issue which makes you think that everyone is out to get you and you make up for it acting tough online
GG
Anyway the discussion about the pro scene still is open imo.
I think you took this way too seriously, you also failed to see the bigger picture, society is the problem, not the gamers, the scene or the athletes.
Let me put it blunt, this society we live in is shit, people like to trash talk each other to make themselves feel good, to cover up superiority complexes and what not, or to just straight up mess with the other guys mind.
And this is the norm in professional sports where rivalry and lots of money is on the line, people trash talk each other in some of the worst ways possible. Don't be surprised its springing up a bit in SC2, actually be glad its quite small right now in SC2 compared to other activities.
What exact rules do you want to set up, to govern what? This is a natural byproduct of our somewhat twisted society, you can try to suppress the problem but it won't go away. So long as this doesn't lead to actual physical harm it is ok, if something like this happens and both parties feel it was a mistake and apologize it is not so bad. I do believe MLG, NASL, IPL and other big names do have rules in place to prevent this kind of trash talk, just so you know, I actually read the rules for signing up to MLG to make sure.
Almost all of the SC2 pro gamers are smart enough to know that trash talking doesn't do them much good, and they have the discipline to control themselves in tournaments and to not lash out.
The final question is, what would you want this "governing body" to protect "you" from? If its bad manner and trash talk, I'm sorry but that will always exist in society to some extend and regardless of medium, be it vocal or internet. If you try to protect your children from it, tough luck, trough school, games, sports they will pick it up. What you need to do is teach your kids that, they can be exposed to shit like this, but they shouldn't respond the same way, and make them understand that trash talking and being bad mannered won't help them in the long run in society.
A lot of people will think my point of view is very cynical, but this is, in my opinion, the true face of society, don't hide from it, learn to deal with it.
I go all out when it comes to cussing and wishing bad things for my opponent on the ladder. But I don't type it out because I know I shouldn't do it. For some people it's just a way to quickly vent their anger while playing the game rather than bottling it up and actually go through with typing out some ridiculous stuff.
Pretty weird thing to do now that I think about it. What do you guys think? I'm basically sitting in my chair on skype with my friends telling them how I wish my opponent got hit by a car or accidentally runs over their 5 yr-old kid and vile stuff of that extent. I actually play better because my feelings aren't bottled up and I feel more motivated to try harder in the game. But at the same time I am not typing out ANY of it to my opponent so he'll never know.
I'm a nice guy irl too, I just know that you have to be an asshole at some point to get anywhere in life.
On September 25 2011 16:20 Bonkerz wrote: Here we go spades being racist and physical threat how can be taken seriously with this stuff going on? http://imgur.com/TQKVz
On September 25 2011 17:02 Spades wrote: Hwangsin and I had a somewhat unfriendly series of games, and brought our argument to a chat channel, which in hindsight was obviously a bad idea. We went back and forth for a while, and I lost control and said something stupid. I've already talked to Scott(It's Gosu's manager) and there are no hard feelings, just a momentary case of bad judgement. I will personally apologize to HwangSin, and I will do my best not to act in an immature manner again.
Quote from Its Gosu Manager
On September 25 2011 17:13 RuMCaKe wrote: I have spoken with Spades, and as the manager of ItsGoSu, and a friend of RGN, and Spades as well. I know this is just a misunderstanding. Tempers flared, some wrong things were said, it happens. No hard feelings on our end, and I hope that people can let it go. People make mistakes, I know I sure do, and I am sure everyone else here does as well. No hard feelings!
Spades, lets have a beer at Orlando
What triggered this thread was that a semi pro/ high level terran on NA ladder on skype told me i should go kill myself which lead me to think about the question. The fact that we see pro players threatening each other when we as a community are still trying to gain legitimacy outside of the gaming world.
For our game what we love,to go to the next level, do we need people to mature. In other sports such as baseball or football, people dont say shit like this because it is a THREAT, and over the interenet it is no different, I doubt that anybody would come up to my face and tell me to kill myself.
Yeah sorry if this has been discussed but i feel it's worth a thread, What do you guys think?
Bonkerz
Well, while I have never heard a pro athlete tell someone to go kill themselves, pro sports in general are littered with extreme amounts of trash talk. Ever played football? When you line up before the hut, multitudes of some of the worst shit you have ever heard is said between the teams. Usually involving raping the other (lols) Hockey, boxing, mma etc. Infact the only sports I can think of where not to much trash talk is involved is tennis and baseball, and for obvious reasons. Trash talk is apart the sport, not to say I agree with someone telling another to go kill themselves, but trust me. I have heard much much worse.
But what players say between themselevs is one thing, but doing it publically is another...
@jedigamer, you are the most immature and rude person i have ever met. If you guys actually go to my thread : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254879¤tpage=4 I respond to jedigamers response by saying "I don't Play top Players, nor will I in the near future, It clearly States that I'm mid masters, this isn't intended for GM players, this is intended for those who aren't as good as you. And I realize that the zergs I play aren't as GOOD as the zergs you play." I don't see how that makes me butthurt. I got on your stream today to learn instead the second i log into chat you called me a fucking baddy and I will never be as good as you, before I even said a WORD to you. Then you constantly blame every loss you got on ladder on your stream viewers ( hence why you will only ever have 5) I mean this thread isn't even about you anymore, I just faced the fact that you probably have had a bad childhood and you make up for it acting tough online
GG
Anyway the discussion about the pro scene still is open imo.
This whole entire thread is like one big personal vendetta and you stirring up a bunch of drama for no reason just because of your own personal beliefs, do you honestly think it is right of you to be the judicature of manner between pro / semi pro players? Why do you even let yourself care so much? IMO this thread has gone on to long and in my opinion it was just meant to stir up drama / put forth your own personal vendetta. GL but this is absolutely pointless beyond the spades / hwangsin drama that you happened to bring up.
As for this: Well I could go on and on but I´d prefer if players kept this out of the public eye. I mean I am by no means offended by this or anything but if they want to be seen as professionals worth of respect they should act like one instead of children. But oh well.
On September 25 2011 16:20 Bonkerz wrote: Here we go spades being racist and physical threat how can be taken seriously with this stuff going on? http://imgur.com/TQKVz
On September 25 2011 17:02 Spades wrote: Hwangsin and I had a somewhat unfriendly series of games, and brought our argument to a chat channel, which in hindsight was obviously a bad idea. We went back and forth for a while, and I lost control and said something stupid. I've already talked to Scott(It's Gosu's manager) and there are no hard feelings, just a momentary case of bad judgement. I will personally apologize to HwangSin, and I will do my best not to act in an immature manner again.
Quote from Its Gosu Manager
On September 25 2011 17:13 RuMCaKe wrote: I have spoken with Spades, and as the manager of ItsGoSu, and a friend of RGN, and Spades as well. I know this is just a misunderstanding. Tempers flared, some wrong things were said, it happens. No hard feelings on our end, and I hope that people can let it go. People make mistakes, I know I sure do, and I am sure everyone else here does as well. No hard feelings!
Spades, lets have a beer at Orlando
What triggered this thread was that a semi pro/ high level terran on NA ladder on skype told me i should go kill myself which lead me to think about the question. The fact that we see pro players threatening each other when we as a community are still trying to gain legitimacy outside of the gaming world.
For our game what we love,to go to the next level, do we need people to mature. In other sports such as baseball or football, people dont say shit like this because it is a THREAT, and over the interenet it is no different, I doubt that anybody would come up to my face and tell me to kill myself.
Yeah sorry if this has been discussed but i feel it's worth a thread, What do you guys think?
Bonkerz
Well, while I have never heard a pro athlete tell someone to go kill themselves, pro sports in general are littered with extreme amounts of trash talk. Ever played football? When you line up before the hut, multitudes of some of the worst shit you have ever heard is said between the teams. Usually involving raping the other (lols) Hockey, boxing, mma etc. Infact the only sports I can think of where not to much trash talk is involved is tennis and baseball, and for obvious reasons. Trash talk is apart the sport, not to say I agree with someone telling another to go kill themselves, but trust me. I have heard much much worse.
But what players say between themselevs is one thing, but doing it publically is another...
@jedigamer, you are the most immature and rude person i have ever met. If you guys actually go to my thread : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254879¤tpage=4 I respond to jedigamers response by saying "I don't Play top Players, nor will I in the near future, It clearly States that I'm mid masters, this isn't intended for GM players, this is intended for those who aren't as good as you. And I realize that the zergs I play aren't as GOOD as the zergs you play." I don't see how that makes me butthurt. I got on your stream today to learn instead the second i log into chat you called me a fucking baddy and I will never be as good as you, before I even said a WORD to you. Then you constantly blame every loss you got on ladder on your stream viewers ( hence why you will only ever have 5) I mean this thread isn't even about you anymore, I just faced the fact that you probably have had a bad childhood and you make up for it acting tough online
GG
Anyway the discussion about the pro scene still is open imo.
This whole entire thread is like one big personal vendetta and you stirring up a bunch of drama for no reason just because of your own personal beliefs, do you honestly think it is right of you to be the judicature of manner between pro / semi pro players? Why do you even let yourself care so much? IMO this thread has gone on to long and in my opinion it was just meant to stir up drama / put forth your own personal vendetta. GL but this is absolutely pointless beyond the spades / hwangsin drama that you happened to bring up.
It isn't even about jedi anymore i really tried to clarify that on the 3rd or 4th page some people can't read, what the real issue is that pro players even think that it's okay to say anything remotely close to each other in any type of public setting. How can that not worry you? Again from an outside perspective how does it look if grown men who are supposed to be professionals at the sport/game are giving each other threats when they lose. How stable do we look?
The game starts. Build a worker, split your workers properly, hotkey your main, type gl hf, press f11 and block communication.
That is how every game should start, unless you are playing with good friends. It doesn't matter if you're playing against Sheth or Combatex, that is what you do. Nothing good ever comes from talking trash in the game or in chats. Nothing.
There are a lot of immature people out there who are insecure. Don't be one of them and don't feed them.
On September 26 2011 00:20 BronzeKnee wrote: The game starts. Build a worker, split your workers properly, hotkey your main, type gl hf, press f11 and block communication.
That is how every game should start. Nothing good ever comes from talking trash in the game or in chats. Nothing.
There are a lot of immature people out there who are insecure. Don't be one of them.
On September 26 2011 00:21 Bonkerz wrote: Read the fucking thread.
On September 26 2011 00:20 BronzeKnee wrote:. There are a lot of immature people out there who are insecure.
Do I really need to say anything else?
This garbage feeds off attention. It is an attention based behavior. If you give it attention in anyway shape or form, you feed it. This thread is attention itself.
Is it ok for people to do that? Of course not, it isn't ok at all. Why did you even ask, it is a rhetorical question? But a lot of people out there are trash, dead beats, cheaters, and liars. The SC2 scene isn't any different. But the way you respond them to should be the same.
On September 26 2011 00:20 BronzeKnee wrote:. There are a lot of immature people out there who are insecure.
Do I really need to say anything else?
This garbage feeds off attention. It is an attention based behavior. If you give it attention in anyway shape or form, you feed it. This thread is attention itself.
Is it ok for people to do that? Of course not, it isn't ok at all. Why did you even ask, it is a rhetorical question. But a lot of people out there are trash, dead beats, cheaters, and liars. The SC2 scene isn't any different. But the way you respond them to should be the same.
Ignore them.
It's not about me, we are talking about the scene as a whole see the big red text at the bottom of the OP, read it...
On September 26 2011 00:21 Bonkerz wrote: Read the fucking thread.
On September 26 2011 00:20 BronzeKnee wrote:. There are a lot of immature people out there who are insecure.
Do I really need to say anything else?
This garbage feeds off attention. It is an attention based behavior. If you give it attention in anyway shape or form, you feed it. This thread is attention itself.
Is it ok for people to do that? Of course not, it isn't ok at all. Why did you even ask, it is a rhetorical question. But a lot of people out there are trash, dead beats, cheaters, and liars. The SC2 scene isn't any different. But the way you respond them to should be the same.
Ignore them.
It's not about me, we are talking about the scene as a whole see the big red text at the bottom of the OP, read it...
I didn't say it was. But I did say you weren't ignoring these people, because that is the proper response. You are giving them attention by asking the rhetorical question wondering if it ok to say extreme things. Obviously it isn't ok to behave like that, and should not be tolerated, but it exists.
Incontrol talks about this in regard to Combatex and explains it well:
On September 26 2011 00:21 Bonkerz wrote: Read the fucking thread.
On September 26 2011 00:20 BronzeKnee wrote:. There are a lot of immature people out there who are insecure.
Do I really need to say anything else?
This garbage feeds off attention. It is an attention based behavior. If you give it attention in anyway shape or form, you feed it. This thread is attention itself.
Is it ok for people to do that? Of course not, it isn't ok at all. Why did you even ask, it is a rhetorical question. But a lot of people out there are trash, dead beats, cheaters, and liars. The SC2 scene isn't any different. But the way you respond them to should be the same.
Ignore them.
It's not about me, we are talking about the scene as a whole see the big red text at the bottom of the OP, read it...
I didn't say it was. But I did say you weren't ignoring these people, because that is the proper response. You are giving them attention by asking a rhetorical question. Obviously it isn't ok to behave like that, and should not be tolerated, but it exists.
Incontrol talks about this in regard to Combatex and explains it well:
iNcontroL explains it well, but I'm not trying condone / give popularity to these types of people but rather don't we as a community need to take a stand against stuff like this from comming out of a pro players mouth, again I'll reiterate that we will NOT as a sport/game/community ever be taken seriously from an outside perspective until stuff like this stops happening.
Whatever Spades just has to lie low for a month or two and this won't even be a big deal. He will get probably spoken to by his manager to watch it and so forth.
On September 26 2011 00:21 Bonkerz wrote: Read the fucking thread.
On September 26 2011 00:20 BronzeKnee wrote:. There are a lot of immature people out there who are insecure.
Do I really need to say anything else?
This garbage feeds off attention. It is an attention based behavior. If you give it attention in anyway shape or form, you feed it. This thread is attention itself.
Is it ok for people to do that? Of course not, it isn't ok at all. Why did you even ask, it is a rhetorical question. But a lot of people out there are trash, dead beats, cheaters, and liars. The SC2 scene isn't any different. But the way you respond them to should be the same.
Ignore them.
It's not about me, we are talking about the scene as a whole see the big red text at the bottom of the OP, read it...
I didn't say it was. But I did say you weren't ignoring these people, because that is the proper response. You are giving them attention by asking a rhetorical question. Obviously it isn't ok to behave like that, and should not be tolerated, but it exists.
Incontrol talks about this in regard to Combatex and explains it well:
iNcontroL explains it well, but I'm not trying condone / give popularity to these types of people but rather don't we as a community need to take a stand against stuff like this from comming out of a pro players mouth, again I'll reiterate that we will NOT as a sport/game/community ever be taken seriously from an outside perspective until stuff like this stops happening.
Not trying and not doing are two different things. The community already doesn't put up with over the top "I'll shoot you" or any type of racial or people saying they should kill themselves. The community on the other hand understands that sometimes we type stuff that we don't mean at a later date...and an apology and some type of action is taken against that person. (not only action from teams and sponsors but their reputation being harmed).
Esports will legitimize itself if it has two legs to stand on and a strong community. One or two incidents of people saying stupid shit and trash talking other pros doesn't equal people not taking us serious. In the end these small things that seem big actually don't matter. You are making this something that it isn't.
Edit: What is your plan for stopping someone for expressing their opinion of another progamer? Where do you draw the line? We don't have the ability to foresee the future and stop them from committing the crimes you don't want them to, so any type of action is going to be reactive instead of proactive about the issue at hand.
I didn't believe in temporary insanity until just in the last couple years. Lately, I've seen normal rational fun loving people just go absolutely nuts for no "real" reason. I mean there will always be trolls and haters but I've seen what I consider decent human beings just go plain ape shit lately and say horrific things (worse than the image) over little barbs. Part of the problem is you are so focused on the game and when some "little thing" goes wrong say an ugly losing streak theres a need to lash out and express yourself in the most graphic way on the internet. Often now I've seen people get on the rage bus and just not get off for hours and they just spew out every and any offensive things come to mind. (Thank you for the ignore button battle.net)
Back to the question: Its a really bad habit to threaten bodily harm to others on the internet. Even though everyone knows you most likely will not go through with it. The issue is your brian "burns in" this kind of behavior and it becomes a more common mode of behavior that can easily resurface over similar insignificant triggers. Everyone gets mad once in a while but totally losing all inhibition and just saying horrible death threats over a non life or death computer eSport is way over the line. I'd recommend get up, take some chill pills, do some normal things that involve human social interaction and come back with a better mindset.
iNcontroL explains it well, but I'm not trying condone / give popularity to these types of people but rather don't we as a community need to take a stand against stuff like this from comming out of a pro players mouth, again I'll reiterate that we will NOT as a sport/game/community ever be taken seriously from an outside perspective until stuff like this stops happening.
I agree that we need to take a stand, and the way you can do that is simply not feed it to it by giving it any attention and by turning your back on people that do things like that. IdrA really put it well when he said that this is a computer game, not a dating show.
At the same time, there are plenty of NFL/NBA/whatever players who say things like this all the time off camera. And when caught they apologize and everything moves on. And look at the investors, they still pour money into it. Because making money is #1, even if it means supporting someone who isn't saying good things but demands a lot of attention and makes money from it. The same will hold true for Starcraft (and anything else).
I am pretty sure the consenus is that people shouldn't act like that. I am not sure exactly what we should do when people do say things like that in SC2, because there are a lot of immature and young players who will lose their temper and say dumb things. And the ones who are on big teams will have to apologize at the very least for it, but I am not sure if anything else needs to done.
It is definitely an interesting discussion and what to do with players who say inappropriate things, but if other sports give us any idea how the SC2 community should, it is make them apologize and move on.
I'm honestly just blown away that words like faggot, homo, retard, and others are still in use by modern highly sponsored players on professional teams. Can't imagine it will be acceptable much longer.
EPT
