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What you guys don't know is that I am a Zerg player and this is what I think should happen so every matchup could be 50%. I am actually tired of winning because my race is breaking the game. I want try and show true skill with micro and macro but I don't really like Protoss or Terran.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 17 2012 08:00 Psychobabas wrote:TL.net needs to link SC2 league with the profile so people know who they are talking to or who is talking 
I agree with this, could have a nice league icon by their name so they know what league are you in.
Although, they would need a way to confirm that it is you (some might just add WhiteRa/IdrA/HuK/MMA as their account). But yeah, battle.net 2.0
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On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep.
Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation).
I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice.
It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun.
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On July 17 2012 08:21 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep. Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation). I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice. It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun.
Or we could just simply remove infestors and bring back defilers
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On July 17 2012 08:24 s1ege wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 08:21 Toadvine wrote:On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep. Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation). I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice. It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun. Or we could just simply remove infestors and bring back defilers
wait what? at first you make this horrible balance suggestions that all point towards nerfing zerg, and your next comment is about replacing the best zerg unit, with an even better one.
I don't get what you want? Do you want to buff zerg, or do you want to nerf zerg?
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On July 17 2012 08:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 08:24 s1ege wrote:On July 17 2012 08:21 Toadvine wrote:On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep. Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation). I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice. It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun. Or we could just simply remove infestors and bring back defilers wait what? at first you make this horrible balance suggestions that all point towards nerfing zerg, and your next comment is about replacing the best zerg unit, with an even better one. I don't get what you want? Do you want to buff zerg, or do you want to nerf zerg? \
Defiler is so much better in design. Anything that can control or restrain unit's movement and position is bad design in RTS. It's good design in Dota and MOBA games though.
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On July 17 2012 08:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 08:24 s1ege wrote:On July 17 2012 08:21 Toadvine wrote:On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep. Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation). I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice. It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun. Or we could just simply remove infestors and bring back defilers wait what? at first you make this horrible balance suggestions that all point towards nerfing zerg, and your next comment is about replacing the best zerg unit, with an even better one. I don't get what you want? Do you want to buff zerg, or do you want to nerf zerg?
Defilers are not better than infestors.
Let's take a look at defiler spells:
-Consume: gives energy
-Dark Swarm: merely prevents attacks
-Plague: pretty much fungal without the stun effects
Infestor spells:
-Infested Terrans: high DPS and low energy cost
-Fungal growth: stuns as well as deals a good amount of damage
-Neural Parasite: takes control of any unit. ANY UNIT
Infestors are WAYYYYYYYY better than defilers will ever be. Fungal alone is better than all of the defiler spells
edit: let's not forget about the fact that Infestors can move while burrowed. Defilers can never do that
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On July 17 2012 08:38 s1ege wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 08:26 Big J wrote:On July 17 2012 08:24 s1ege wrote:On July 17 2012 08:21 Toadvine wrote:On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep. Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation). I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice. It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun. Or we could just simply remove infestors and bring back defilers wait what? at first you make this horrible balance suggestions that all point towards nerfing zerg, and your next comment is about replacing the best zerg unit, with an even better one. I don't get what you want? Do you want to buff zerg, or do you want to nerf zerg? Defilers are not better than infestors. Let's take a look at defiler spells: -Consume: gives energy -Dark Swarm: merely prevents attacks -Plague: pretty much fungal without the stun effects Infestor spells: -Infested Terrans: high DPS and low energy cost -Fungal growth: stuns as well as deals a good amount of damage -Neural Parasite: takes control of any unit. ANY UNIT Infestors are WAYYYYYYYY better than defilers will ever be. Fungal alone is better than all of the defiler spells
And now let's take a close look:
Defiler:
-) Consume: gives energy, so you need very few defilers. Point taken, the defiler (as it was in BW) needed 2 upgrades (energy upgrade doesn't count, because it's useless) so you had to invest a bit more to get them started.
But once you had them, how many do you actually need to build in a game? 5? How many infestors do you build? 10? 20? Not to mention you will never run out of energy and smartcasting makes consume+spellspamming quite easy in SC2.
-) Dark swarm: yeah, "merely" prevents attacks. I mean, my 100zerglings won't die, what about your 30stalkers or 50marines?
-) Plague: yeah, just fungal without the stun. And a bit more damage. But I mean, 40damage, 300damage... Why not give it a million damage? As long as the stun isn't there it's balanced, am I right?!?!?!
Who cares about chainfungal? I'm gonna plague you once and each of your units will be on one life.
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On July 17 2012 08:38 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 08:26 Big J wrote:On July 17 2012 08:24 s1ege wrote:On July 17 2012 08:21 Toadvine wrote:On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep. Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation). I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice. It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun. Or we could just simply remove infestors and bring back defilers wait what? at first you make this horrible balance suggestions that all point towards nerfing zerg, and your next comment is about replacing the best zerg unit, with an even better one. I don't get what you want? Do you want to buff zerg, or do you want to nerf zerg? \ Defiler is so much better in design. Anything that can control or restrain unit's movement and position is bad design in RTS. It's good design in Dota and MOBA games though.
Control of movement and position is one of the fundamental components of RTS, though complaints about fungal tend to come from the fact that you can spawn infestors with it and simultaneously do high DPS while locking down a chunk of units so that they literally cannot move.
The discussion is tending back towards what the OP was trying to avoid, so let's try actually thinking all these ideas through.
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On July 17 2012 08:49 dangthatsright wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 08:38 larse wrote:On July 17 2012 08:26 Big J wrote:On July 17 2012 08:24 s1ege wrote:On July 17 2012 08:21 Toadvine wrote:On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep. Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation). I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice. It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun. Or we could just simply remove infestors and bring back defilers wait what? at first you make this horrible balance suggestions that all point towards nerfing zerg, and your next comment is about replacing the best zerg unit, with an even better one. I don't get what you want? Do you want to buff zerg, or do you want to nerf zerg? \ Defiler is so much better in design. Anything that can control or restrain unit's movement and position is bad design in RTS. It's good design in Dota and MOBA games though. Control of movement and position is one of the fundamental components of RTS, though complaints about fungal tend to come from the fact that you can spawn infestors with it and simultaneously do high DPS while locking down a chunk of units so that they literally cannot move. The discussion is tending back towards what the OP was trying to avoid, so let's try actually thinking all these ideas through.
When and how in-game mechanisms that can control and restraint of unit's movement and position are a good thing and a fundamental components of RTS? It's bad, plain and simple. The most obvious reason is that it prevents micro, and everyone knows micro is so so important to SC.
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Like, the Queen change isn't the problem; it's showing us what the problem is. In a game where both players don't make major mistakes, the Zerg player wins. I'm going to be totally honest: if Zerg were suddenly balanced today, a lot of players on ladder would get demoted. This isn't a bad thing. They'd be demoted because they think Sc2 is about just hitting Injects, spreading Creep, and knowing when to not make Drones. That's not true though. It should ideally be about pressuring and handling pressure, deviating from standard builds in order to gain an advantage, and multitasking to catch your opponent off balance.
Best post I've read in a while. I don't think it will last for much longer though.
Blizzard has to do something. It's been ignored long enough.
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On July 17 2012 08:53 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 08:49 dangthatsright wrote:On July 17 2012 08:38 larse wrote:On July 17 2012 08:26 Big J wrote:On July 17 2012 08:24 s1ege wrote:On July 17 2012 08:21 Toadvine wrote:On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep. Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation). I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice. It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun. Or we could just simply remove infestors and bring back defilers wait what? at first you make this horrible balance suggestions that all point towards nerfing zerg, and your next comment is about replacing the best zerg unit, with an even better one. I don't get what you want? Do you want to buff zerg, or do you want to nerf zerg? \ Defiler is so much better in design. Anything that can control or restrain unit's movement and position is bad design in RTS. It's good design in Dota and MOBA games though. Control of movement and position is one of the fundamental components of RTS, though complaints about fungal tend to come from the fact that you can spawn infestors with it and simultaneously do high DPS while locking down a chunk of units so that they literally cannot move. The discussion is tending back towards what the OP was trying to avoid, so let's try actually thinking all these ideas through. When and how in-game mechanisms that can control and restraint of unit's movement and position are a good thing and a fundamental components of RTS? It's bad, plain and simple. The most obvious reason is that it prevents micro, and everyone knows micro is so so important to SC.
What I meant was more along the lines of using tanks on high ground or lurkers under dark swarm in brood war to hold down positions, using drops or counterattacks to manipulate their army, stuff like that. There's a lot of potential for spells to achieve this (e.g. you can use storm to zone out bio). Which is not terribly relevant to the current discussion.
I think we agree that the way fungal does this is bad design, since its long casting range and current mechanic makes it a damage dealing spell that you can only dodge by completely preempting, otherwise you're completely stuck with probably no chance of getting away.
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On July 17 2012 08:48 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 08:38 s1ege wrote:On July 17 2012 08:26 Big J wrote:On July 17 2012 08:24 s1ege wrote:On July 17 2012 08:21 Toadvine wrote:On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep. Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation). I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice. It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun. Or we could just simply remove infestors and bring back defilers wait what? at first you make this horrible balance suggestions that all point towards nerfing zerg, and your next comment is about replacing the best zerg unit, with an even better one. I don't get what you want? Do you want to buff zerg, or do you want to nerf zerg? Defilers are not better than infestors. Let's take a look at defiler spells: -Consume: gives energy -Dark Swarm: merely prevents attacks -Plague: pretty much fungal without the stun effects Infestor spells: -Infested Terrans: high DPS and low energy cost -Fungal growth: stuns as well as deals a good amount of damage -Neural Parasite: takes control of any unit. ANY UNIT Infestors are WAYYYYYYYY better than defilers will ever be. Fungal alone is better than all of the defiler spells And now let's take a close look: Defiler: -) Consume: gives energy, so you need very few defilers. Point taken, the defiler (as it was in BW) needed 2 upgrades (energy upgrade doesn't count, because it's useless) so you had to invest a bit more to get them started. But once you had them, how many do you actually need to build in a game? 5? How many infestors do you build? 10? 20? Not to mention you will never run out of energy and smartcasting makes consume+spellspamming quite easy in SC2. -) Dark swarm: yeah, "merely" prevents attacks. I mean, my 100zerglings won't die, what about your 30stalkers or 50marines? -) Plague: yeah, just fungal without the stun. And a bit more damage. But I mean, 40damage, 300damage... Why not give it a million damage? As long as the stun isn't there it's balanced, am I right?!?!?! Who cares about chainfungal? I'm gonna plague you once and each of your units will be on one life.
I think this is a silly argument, since Defilers will never be in the game. But let's look at what Fugal can do as a spell.
1. It freezes units so they cannot retreat/be microed.
2. It does damage to large numbers of units at once.
3. It reveals AND freezes cloaked units.
4. It has a tech option so Infestors spawn with fungals immediately (ie: can be cast instantly.)
I don't think there's another spell in SC2 that can do so much at once. I don't know if it's unbalanced (a spell can do a lot and not be unbalanced - it depends on how much damage it does, area of effect, etc.), but I think it's very boring to have a single spell that can basically do everything.
I also think fungal is unbelievably boring to watch. One good hit and the entire army is dead no matter how skilled the opponent is at micro because he can never ever regain control of his units.
EDIT: This doesn't really respond to what Big J said that much, but I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in about fungal as a spell.
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The fundamental problem with infestors is that you can cast fungal more than once on already fungaled units. It should be made that fungal growth has a 10* in-game second immunity on the units that are affected by it so that it cannot be chained. Or it should be made that if a unit is fungaled again within 10* seconds, the effect is reduced to 33% effectiveness ( 1/3 damage, units can move at 2/3 normal speed).
Fungal itself is not extremely overpowered, but the potential to re-fungal is.
*Time can be changed to suit balance ofc.
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On July 17 2012 09:02 dangthatsright wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 08:53 larse wrote:On July 17 2012 08:49 dangthatsright wrote:On July 17 2012 08:38 larse wrote:On July 17 2012 08:26 Big J wrote:On July 17 2012 08:24 s1ege wrote:On July 17 2012 08:21 Toadvine wrote:On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep. Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation). I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice. It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun. Or we could just simply remove infestors and bring back defilers wait what? at first you make this horrible balance suggestions that all point towards nerfing zerg, and your next comment is about replacing the best zerg unit, with an even better one. I don't get what you want? Do you want to buff zerg, or do you want to nerf zerg? \ Defiler is so much better in design. Anything that can control or restrain unit's movement and position is bad design in RTS. It's good design in Dota and MOBA games though. Control of movement and position is one of the fundamental components of RTS, though complaints about fungal tend to come from the fact that you can spawn infestors with it and simultaneously do high DPS while locking down a chunk of units so that they literally cannot move. The discussion is tending back towards what the OP was trying to avoid, so let's try actually thinking all these ideas through. When and how in-game mechanisms that can control and restraint of unit's movement and position are a good thing and a fundamental components of RTS? It's bad, plain and simple. The most obvious reason is that it prevents micro, and everyone knows micro is so so important to SC. What I meant was more along the lines of using tanks on high ground or lurkers under dark swarm in brood war to hold down positions, using drops or counterattacks to manipulate their army, stuff like that. There's a lot of potential for spells to achieve this (e.g. you can use storm to zone out bio). Which is not terribly relevant to the current discussion. I think we agree that the way fungal does this is bad design, since its long casting range and current mechanic makes it a damage dealing spell that you can only dodge by completely preempting, otherwise you're completely stuck with probably no chance of getting away.
I should say "in-game mechanisms that can control and restraint of the enemy's unit movement and position". The examples are force field, vortex, fungal growth's stun effect, Neural Parasite, and the f***ing abduct from viper in HOTS. All these prevent micro and they breaks the game.
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On July 17 2012 09:24 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 09:02 dangthatsright wrote:On July 17 2012 08:53 larse wrote:On July 17 2012 08:49 dangthatsright wrote:On July 17 2012 08:38 larse wrote:On July 17 2012 08:26 Big J wrote:On July 17 2012 08:24 s1ege wrote:On July 17 2012 08:21 Toadvine wrote:On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep. Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation). I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice. It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun. Or we could just simply remove infestors and bring back defilers wait what? at first you make this horrible balance suggestions that all point towards nerfing zerg, and your next comment is about replacing the best zerg unit, with an even better one. I don't get what you want? Do you want to buff zerg, or do you want to nerf zerg? \ Defiler is so much better in design. Anything that can control or restrain unit's movement and position is bad design in RTS. It's good design in Dota and MOBA games though. Control of movement and position is one of the fundamental components of RTS, though complaints about fungal tend to come from the fact that you can spawn infestors with it and simultaneously do high DPS while locking down a chunk of units so that they literally cannot move. The discussion is tending back towards what the OP was trying to avoid, so let's try actually thinking all these ideas through. When and how in-game mechanisms that can control and restraint of unit's movement and position are a good thing and a fundamental components of RTS? It's bad, plain and simple. The most obvious reason is that it prevents micro, and everyone knows micro is so so important to SC. What I meant was more along the lines of using tanks on high ground or lurkers under dark swarm in brood war to hold down positions, using drops or counterattacks to manipulate their army, stuff like that. There's a lot of potential for spells to achieve this (e.g. you can use storm to zone out bio). Which is not terribly relevant to the current discussion. I think we agree that the way fungal does this is bad design, since its long casting range and current mechanic makes it a damage dealing spell that you can only dodge by completely preempting, otherwise you're completely stuck with probably no chance of getting away. I should say "in-game mechanisms that can control and restraint of the enemy's unit movement and position". The examples are force field, vortex, fungal growth's stun effect, Neural Parasite, and the f***ing abduct from viper in HOTS. All these prevent micro and they breaks the game.
Okay so we basically agree then (these are mechanisms that act directly, indirect ones may be fine, but sure) 
Alright, now back to the balance discussion.
EDIT: Why are we having this defiler vs infestor discussion, they are parts of different games and it doesn't really make sense to compare the two directly. If we want to discuss the defiler, how does it play into the current perceived issues in SC2
- Some people have stated it is explicitly the infestor that's the problem, how does defiler over infestor deal with that from a balance perspective rather than a design perspective
- For those saying it's infestor broodlord (corruptor), same question
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On July 17 2012 09:34 dangthatsright wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 09:24 larse wrote:On July 17 2012 09:02 dangthatsright wrote:On July 17 2012 08:53 larse wrote:On July 17 2012 08:49 dangthatsright wrote:On July 17 2012 08:38 larse wrote:On July 17 2012 08:26 Big J wrote:On July 17 2012 08:24 s1ege wrote:On July 17 2012 08:21 Toadvine wrote:On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep. Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation). I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice. It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun. Or we could just simply remove infestors and bring back defilers wait what? at first you make this horrible balance suggestions that all point towards nerfing zerg, and your next comment is about replacing the best zerg unit, with an even better one. I don't get what you want? Do you want to buff zerg, or do you want to nerf zerg? \ Defiler is so much better in design. Anything that can control or restrain unit's movement and position is bad design in RTS. It's good design in Dota and MOBA games though. Control of movement and position is one of the fundamental components of RTS, though complaints about fungal tend to come from the fact that you can spawn infestors with it and simultaneously do high DPS while locking down a chunk of units so that they literally cannot move. The discussion is tending back towards what the OP was trying to avoid, so let's try actually thinking all these ideas through. When and how in-game mechanisms that can control and restraint of unit's movement and position are a good thing and a fundamental components of RTS? It's bad, plain and simple. The most obvious reason is that it prevents micro, and everyone knows micro is so so important to SC. What I meant was more along the lines of using tanks on high ground or lurkers under dark swarm in brood war to hold down positions, using drops or counterattacks to manipulate their army, stuff like that. There's a lot of potential for spells to achieve this (e.g. you can use storm to zone out bio). Which is not terribly relevant to the current discussion. I think we agree that the way fungal does this is bad design, since its long casting range and current mechanic makes it a damage dealing spell that you can only dodge by completely preempting, otherwise you're completely stuck with probably no chance of getting away. I should say "in-game mechanisms that can control and restraint of the enemy's unit movement and position". The examples are force field, vortex, fungal growth's stun effect, Neural Parasite, and the f***ing abduct from viper in HOTS. All these prevent micro and they breaks the game. Okay so we basically agree then (these are mechanisms that act directly, indirect ones may be fine, but sure) Alright, now back to the balance discussion. EDIT: Why are we having this defiler vs infestor discussion, they are parts of different games and it doesn't really make sense to compare the two directly. If we want to discuss the defiler, how does it play into the current perceived issues in SC2 - Some people have stated it is explicitly the infestor that's the problem, how does defiler over infestor deal with that from a balance perspective rather than a design perspective - For those saying it's infestor broodlord (corruptor), same question
As long as fungal doesn't stun units and infested terran is not so f***ing op, i'm ok with infestor. Defiler breaks the balance, but it's good in its fundamental design.
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On July 17 2012 09:07 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 08:48 Big J wrote:On July 17 2012 08:38 s1ege wrote:On July 17 2012 08:26 Big J wrote:On July 17 2012 08:24 s1ege wrote:On July 17 2012 08:21 Toadvine wrote:On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep. Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation). I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice. It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun. Or we could just simply remove infestors and bring back defilers wait what? at first you make this horrible balance suggestions that all point towards nerfing zerg, and your next comment is about replacing the best zerg unit, with an even better one. I don't get what you want? Do you want to buff zerg, or do you want to nerf zerg? Defilers are not better than infestors. Let's take a look at defiler spells: -Consume: gives energy -Dark Swarm: merely prevents attacks -Plague: pretty much fungal without the stun effects Infestor spells: -Infested Terrans: high DPS and low energy cost -Fungal growth: stuns as well as deals a good amount of damage -Neural Parasite: takes control of any unit. ANY UNIT Infestors are WAYYYYYYYY better than defilers will ever be. Fungal alone is better than all of the defiler spells And now let's take a close look: Defiler: -) Consume: gives energy, so you need very few defilers. Point taken, the defiler (as it was in BW) needed 2 upgrades (energy upgrade doesn't count, because it's useless) so you had to invest a bit more to get them started. But once you had them, how many do you actually need to build in a game? 5? How many infestors do you build? 10? 20? Not to mention you will never run out of energy and smartcasting makes consume+spellspamming quite easy in SC2. -) Dark swarm: yeah, "merely" prevents attacks. I mean, my 100zerglings won't die, what about your 30stalkers or 50marines? -) Plague: yeah, just fungal without the stun. And a bit more damage. But I mean, 40damage, 300damage... Why not give it a million damage? As long as the stun isn't there it's balanced, am I right?!?!?! Who cares about chainfungal? I'm gonna plague you once and each of your units will be on one life. I think this is a silly argument, since Defilers will never be in the game. But let's look at what Fugal can do as a spell. 1. It freezes units so they cannot retreat/be microed. 2. It does damage to large numbers of units at once. 3. It reveals AND freezes cloaked units. 4. It has a tech option so Infestors spawn with fungals immediately (ie: can be cast instantly.) I don't think there's another spell in SC2 that can do so much at once. I don't know if it's unbalanced (a spell can do a lot and not be unbalanced - it depends on how much damage it does, area of effect, etc.), but I think it's very boring to have a single spell that can basically do everything. I also think fungal is unbelievably boring to watch. One good hit and the entire army is dead no matter how skilled the opponent is at micro because he can never ever regain control of his units. EDIT: This doesn't really respond to what Big J said that much, but I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in about fungal as a spell.
We're quick to point out the strengths of infestors but not their weaknesses, spells cost energy, and they are really squishy.
I'd be hesitant to nerf them at this stage however a change that may be worth experimenting with is reducing the casting range of fungal growth by 1, this would force them just that bit closer to engagements and place a greater emphasis on zerg players micro of them, given how strong they are in the ZvT MU and the infrequency with which ghosts are being made to counter them.
In response to the 6 nerfs listed by shiori, i think implementing half of them would completely break zerg. Consider how instrumental the queen range buff was on the meta game alone... changing so many things would render them completely useless. The only interesting change that i think could be explored (as much as i hate the cost efficiency of roaches) is the creep recede speed. Given the number of queens being made and the huge creep spreads and high numbers of tumours, adjusting the recede speed of creep could be a measure to fine tune the meta game, slow down speedlings counters just that little bit and help manage the almost overwhelming map control through the mid game that zergs are able to take.
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Personally, I don't think mid-late/late game zerg itself is hopelessly broken or anything, it tends to feel like that, but its because they are already in such an advantageous position by the time it reaches that point. A lot of people point out the race's ability to remax instantly being too strong and whatnot, but that can only happen with an existing big resource bank. And in my humble opinion there lies the problem, zergs ability to deflect most early game pressures too cost efficiently. Right now a lot of harassments can be held off just fine with minimal lings/roaches if you just get more queens. Which is a problem as building queens for defense is not even an opportunity cost, because there is so much utility for them.
So what you are left with is zerg being mostly undisrupted in their macro, by the 15-20min mark they have a huge supply lead with a sizable bank; that even trading armies well as a terran/toss feels futile because soon enough there is another similar wave coming at you again, but only this time you have like maybe 60% the previous army size. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the thing people are frustrated with is the fact that you have to consistently trade ultra cost efficiently to have a chance to even consider doing a counterattack, trade slightly bad once and you know the game is over already.
I would like to see a small change on the PTR or something (say queens raised to 200 minerals for instance) and see how it changes the overall flow of the game. I'm not trying to say that queens are overpowered per se, but they seem a bit too cheap considering how all-purpose they are right now - it turns so many of the pressure attacks into somewhat of an all-in already, which is terrible for gameplay imo. I'm not a fan of big nerfs for any race, so I would much rather prefer a subtle change that reduces the rate of momentum zerg gains.
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On July 17 2012 08:24 s1ege wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 08:21 Toadvine wrote:On July 17 2012 07:06 Shiori wrote:
Here are my suggestions for fixing the Zerg race (preferably I would have them all applied unless otherwise specified):
1) Reduce Larva spawned from Inject by 1
2) Larva cannot be stacked past 7 (willing to negotiate higher rates for Lair/Hive)
3) Creep recedes MUCH more quickly than it already does. The space covered by a single tumor should take no more than 10 seconds to recede.
4) Either Roach HP reduced or gas increased to 50 (may not be necessary with Larva nerf, but we'll see).
5) Queen armour type changed to Armoured so that Void Rays are actually relevant again.
6) BL supply increased by 2 in order to prevent 30BL + 16 Infestor stupidity in the lategame.
Sounds harsh, but this would fix the game. Zerg players would be forced to take risks and try to make their opponents react rather than just sitting back and fending off all pressure with Roach/Ling, Queens, and standard play.
Even if these changes ended up making Zerg too weak (which is doubtful) they would improve the style of the game, which means that we could buff any T/P strategies that become too powerful. But a game in which Zerg is losing because its abilities to pressure don't have enough punch is something which we can fix, whereas the game we have right now shows a fundamental brokenness in the Zerg's very mechanics, and that's much more significant and cries out for change.
TL;DR: yes, the changes I propose are harsh, but they will improve the game. If the changes make Zerg too weak, then we can buff OTHER parts of the Zerg race while keeping the overall nerfs to the macro mechanics and basic units, because these are far too systemically imbalanced to keep. Rather than straight up nerfing Spawn Larvae, I'd prefer something like making inject cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae, That way, you actually need to spend minerals on more hatches if you want more production. Don't think you need to nerf any units (perhaps you'd need to buff lings slightly, since they suffer the most from a nerf to larvae generation). I'd rather if Void Rays were simply removed from the game, and Fungal would not hit air anymore (or, not root air at the very least). This would also solve the Broodlord problem, as it would be impossible to counter any air transition with mass Infestor. Fungal should become a combination of Ensnare and Plague in any case, because currently it's really fucking stupid. Byun plays a nearly flawless game against Symbol, is way ahead, and then loses because a Fungal catches all his Vikings twice. It's just dumb as hell, and made all the more aggravating by Zerg players telling Terrans to split their units, while at the same time complaining about FF after having their army headbutt them and helplessly die to Colossus fire. If Zergs suddenly had to do be half as careful and meticulous with their armies as P and T need to when playing against Zerg, their tears would blot out the sun. Or we could just simply remove infestors and bring back defilers
Seconded. Idk why people bitch so much about zerg. The key to beat zerg is out-scouting and timing the big push for either race right before the zerg techs to hive. If they get up to hive then you failed to capatilize on the mid-game advantage and yeah you lose.
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