EPTLook at major sports. They all have multiple coaches there telling them what to fix, how to fix it, and their progress on how well they are making the adjustments. In the Western SC2 scene, I don't see any of that....and our players aren't really improving, no matter how much practice they get.
Mr. Bitter: The foreign players have to get better - Page 6
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shockaslim
United States1105 Posts
Look at major sports. They all have multiple coaches there telling them what to fix, how to fix it, and their progress on how well they are making the adjustments. In the Western SC2 scene, I don't see any of that....and our players aren't really improving, no matter how much practice they get. | ||
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farvacola
United States18869 Posts
On August 07 2011 04:53 Iberville wrote: I didn't say what you're insinuating. I also don't understand what you mean by "my country isn't 'non-korea'." Although a sentence, it makes no sense. I dislike the word "foreigner", which to me is relative, hence why I prefer to specify by saying "not-this-place". Also something else to think about : not everyone is a hardcore SC2/BW game watcher. Not everyone wakes up at 5 am to watch GSL, not everyone knows the scene. When you're trying to grow the sport, you're trying to bring new people who are ignorant. I'm not saying that Korean players don't help grow the sport (some seem to think that's what I'm writing, which, again, is ridiculous), but stimulating local growth is, however, a great way to help expose a sport and make it grow. I also like how nobody seemed to care about the labour question. Shows how young the crowd is in here. Ummm no, your entire point in regards to labour conditions simply makes no sense. I can't claim to understand the entirety of your experience, but cramped living conditions and multi-family housing is an incredibly common phenomenon in Asian countries, to the point where bunking 4-6 people in a single room is simply the price one pays for living in one of a handful of cities that can claim the most intense population density in the world. Furthermore, the mere fact that professional gaming presents itself as a possible option to those who have the skill or dedication probably strongly affects the decision-making of prospective players, especially in Korea. I realize that you may think you are acting as some sort of advocate for these players, but what have the players themselves said? Although this last point does indeed boil down to conjecture (which is, I may add, what your indictment of living conditions on the players behalf is as well), I can guarantee that given possible living/career options the vast majority of Korean players who live in cramped team house situations would have it no other way, they are able to play the game they love and get better. | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On August 07 2011 05:17 shockaslim wrote: I think that these western teams really need to get COACHES! You could say "Well, they already know what they are doing why do they need a coach?". Right there is where the problem lays. Even people that play at the highest tiers of play do stupid things or get stuck in bad habits. Look at major sports. They all have multiple coaches there telling them what to fix, how to fix it, and their progress on how well they are making the adjustments. In the Western SC2 scene, I don't see any of that....and our players aren't really improving, no matter how much practice they get. They are steadily improving, if you compare their game to 2 months ago, you clearly see the difference. It's just in comparison to the koreans, they progress slower. | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On August 07 2011 05:07 Rococo wrote: I've never understood this concern. There are far more exciting narratives than just 'can guy from country A beat guy from country B'. I mean, had Boxer won MLG the audience would have gone absolutely bonkers. Would that have been a staler spectator experience than if Huk, a code S player and the arguable favorite after MVP, had won it? I don't believe so. You could say that Boxer is different, but why should he be? Every player has a personal story that's just as capable of capturing an audience's enthusiasm as the flag next his name. More capable, actually. For most hardcore players that are 1) capable of understanding the nuances of skilled played and 2) appreciate that above all else, it doesn't matter what nation the player comes from as long as they're good. For the casual player or even non-player, they are looking for generally good players that they can relate to. For example, the GSL's outreach program with MLG is a prime example of MLG recognizing the need to cater to the second audience as well as the first in order to grow. | ||
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MrKn4rz
Germany2153 Posts
On August 07 2011 05:20 Elefanto wrote: They are steadily improving, if you compare their game to 2 months ago, you clearly see the difference. It's just in comparison to the koreans, they progress slower. I think having Coaches is one of the neccessary steps in order to keep up. There is a reason the korean teams all have Coaches. They just know how stuff works after 10 years of BW. | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On August 07 2011 01:12 Assirra wrote: New Star HoSeo their practice house is a room in their school yet they somehow are the first on the team league. You don't need that much as people like to claim it seems. Newstar hoseo still has rooms for them to sleep in as well, sure its in a school but i think their practice room is actually alot bigger then most of the apartment pro house practice rooms. I dont really see your point. | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On August 07 2011 05:17 shockaslim wrote: I think that these western teams really need to get COACHES! You could say "Well, they already know what they are doing why do they need a coach?". Right there is where the problem lays. Even people that play at the highest tiers of play do stupid things or get stuck in bad habits. Look at major sports. They all have multiple coaches there telling them what to fix, how to fix it, and their progress on how well they are making the adjustments. In the Western SC2 scene, I don't see any of that....and our players aren't really improving, no matter how much practice they get. I totally agree with this, i think that is one of the huge differences between the west and korea. All the teams in korea have 1 maybe 2 coaches (some are players) and they are dedicated to helping their players improve and help them through mental barriers when they are in the booth etc. If your on any sort of proffesional team, you need a coach its plain and simple. | ||
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Rococo
United States331 Posts
On August 07 2011 05:21 Kambing wrote: For most hardcore players that are 1) capable of understanding the nuances of skilled played and 2) appreciate that above all else, it doesn't matter what nation the player comes from as long as they're good. For the casual player or even non-player, they are looking for generally good players that they can relate to. For example, the GSL's outreach program with MLG is a prime example of MLG recognizing the need to cater to the second audience as well as the first in order to grow. My point was that individual player personalities and stories should take precedence over the 'Korea versus the World' narrative that the SC2 community has been focusing on since its launch. You're talking about something a bit different, which is languages and cultural barriers preventing audiences from empathizing with players. Those aren't exclusive to Koreans. | ||
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MrKn4rz
Germany2153 Posts
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Sein
United States1811 Posts
On August 07 2011 05:18 farvacola wrote: Ummm no, your entire point in regards to labour conditions simply makes no sense. I can't claim to understand the entirety of your experience, but cramped living conditions and multi-family housing is an incredibly common phenomenon in Asian countries, to the point where bunking 4-6 people in a single room is simply the price one pays for living in one of a handful of cities that can claim the most intense population density in the world. Furthermore, the mere fact that professional gaming presents itself as a possible option to those who have the skill or dedication probably strongly affects the decision-making of prospective players, especially in Korea. I realize that you may think you are acting as some sort of advocate for these players, but what have the players themselves said? Although this last point does indeed boil down to conjecture (which is, I may add, what your indictment of living conditions on the players behalf is as well), I can guarantee that given possible living/career options the vast majority of Korean players who live in cramped team house situations would have it no other way, they are able to play the game they love and get better. Out of curiosity, where are you from? | ||
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okrane
France265 Posts
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farvacola
United States18869 Posts
I was born and raised in the United States, but I lived in Seoul for 2 years contiguously in high school. At the risk of sounding like a cosmopolitan braggart, I have family in Tokyo, Guangzhou, and Busan, in addition to non Asian countries such as Columbia, Argentina, and Switzerland, and I've lived for months at a time in every place I've mentioned. I'm simply speaking from my experience and knowledge in regards to the cultural studies I undertook in college, I remember being quite surprised at how a lot of my Korean friends in Seoul lived with upwards of 5 people in single or double bedroom flats, only to be even more surprised at how little this mattered to them. | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
On August 07 2011 05:12 PH wrote: Gaming, especially Starcraft, is quite accepted in Korea. Nearly every young dude has played SC at one point or another. Lim Yo Hwan and Kim Taek Young are nearly household names. You can meet up with your friends after a weekend, ask what everyone did, and say you spent the weekend playing games and not be considered a nerd. There's much less stigma in Korea than in the states. You really have no idea what you're talking about... -_- I don't know about you, but you can say that here and not be considered a nerd. And if you are considered a nerd, it's usually done in a joking "lol what a nerd" fashion and not an "oh god, don't touch me nerd, it might be contagious" fashion. | ||
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JoeAWESOME
Sweden1080 Posts
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TuElite
Canada2123 Posts
But I understand that for the growth of eSports and for the international players or aspiring pros it would help if the foreign players could hold their own. | ||
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StyLeD
United States2965 Posts
On August 07 2011 06:46 TedJustice wrote: I don't know about you, but you can say that here and not be considered a nerd. And if you are considered a nerd, it's usually done in a joking "lol what a nerd" fashion and not an "oh god, don't touch me nerd, it might be contagious" fashion. I think it's more like, in Korea you can go to a PC bang and play SC/SC2 and not feel like a nerd. Social stigma. | ||
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SC2Joker
United States63 Posts
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freerolll
Belgium1056 Posts
I've been saying for a long time that we should bring Koreans on the show. Maybe I can do that, and then the foreign pros will start watching. :-) | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Actually Blizzard maybe should put in at time limit - no one is allowed to be on battlenet for more then 8 hours a day - that should keep the Koreans in check. I know my suggestions are extreme and not very realistic, but if the Korean pull to far ahead E-sport will die. Not many casual viewers will care about a sport where 98% of the tournament winners are from just one country. | ||
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Malgrif
Canada1095 Posts
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