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On August 07 2011 04:53 Iberville wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 04:46 TedJustice wrote:On August 07 2011 04:26 Iberville wrote:On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote:
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea. I don't see what the big deal is about wanting someone from your country to win. Stating that you don't care is certainly your prerogative, as it is someone else's to feel the contrary. On another note, I feel that it is quite ridiculous that some put forth the argument that if your interest in a sport wades as it is dominated by X country means you don't like that sport. International hockey is dominated by three teams mostly, and it's boring. Boring. Boring. Boring. Women's hockey is worst: it's basically Canada vs USA. Boring. Boring. Boring. When a sport is completely dominated by one country... well. I dislike those who will say that I don't like hockey because of what I feel the international sport scene is. Same thing for SC2. I also dislike those who impose upon others a criteria of what it means to be a fan of a certain sport because I don't agree with their point of view; ie: you find tournaments boring because Koreans always wins, that means you don't like SC2; uninstall. That is not an argument. It's imposing your point of view on others. Food for thought. That's fine and dandy, but your country isn't "non-korea". It's silly that people will root for every foreigner, even ones that aren't from their country, but not koreans. I didn't say what you're insinuating. I also don't understand what you mean by "my country isn't 'non-korea'." Although a sentence, it makes no sense. I dislike the word "foreigner", which to me is relative, hence why I prefer to specify by saying "not-this-place". Also something else to think about : not everyone is a hardcore SC2/BW game watcher. Not everyone wakes up at 5 am to watch GSL, not everyone knows the scene. When you're trying to grow the sport, you're trying to bring new people who are ignorant. I'm not saying that Korean players don't help grow the sport (some seem to think that's what I'm writing, which, again, is ridiculous), but stimulating local growth is, however, a great way to help expose a sport and make it grow. I also like how nobody seemed to care about the labour question. Shows how young the crowd is in here.
STOP right there. I'll respond.
Your "young crowd" comment was insulting and uncalled for. And this is coming from me - a person who's not even a fan of the community at times due to the elitism that's prevalent here. Please don't make yourself look like some kind of elderly master and everyone else here is some child barely out of the womb.
Your whole schpiel about sweatshop conditions dating back to the Industrial Revolution, and how Korean team houses are mirroring those conditions, and how inhumane it is. And how foreigners shouldn't be copying Koreans because we'd be putting ourselves right back in the Middle Ages. The problem with all this is, you're missing the point entirely.
First of all, do you understand what it takes to be a winner?
You're against the top 0.01% of the most skilled gamers...in the world. Can you really say to yourself "I don't need to practice 12-14 hours a day"...when you know full well, that your competition is?
Picture yourself as a fledging golfer, and in a year's time, you'll be going up against Tiger Woods. How would you go about preparing yourself for such an event? Just a few hours of practice a day? When you know full well that Tiger Woods eats and breathes golf?
It has nothing to do with sweatshop conditions. Every single gamer who lives in those conditions is doing it for a reason, not because they are enslaved by someone and forced to chimney sweep for a few shillings a day.
Perhaps you should answer the question. What would it take, for foreigners to consistently win games off of the best Koreans? Or even approach a 50% win ratio?
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On August 07 2011 07:28 D_K_night wrote:
Perhaps you should answer the question. What would it take, for foreigners to consistently win games off of the best Koreans? Or even approach a 50% win ratio?
This question is quite easy to answer... and it's something that most likely non-Koreans will be ever able to possess... which simply is a fanatical, borderline recklessness passion to their craft. It's a combination of not only amazing work ethic, but also a huge desire to want to do what their doing.
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since when was cologne the place to be for esports outside korea?
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On August 07 2011 04:20 murkk wrote:
I think a lot of the problems stem from the fact that foreign players have so much opportunity to make money doing anything but practicing.
How many top players in NA and Europe are making money streaming, broadcasting, doing shows, and being popular rather than practicing?
This is true.The e-fame is ruining things they just get fame and be too ignorant about the actual game.Tlyer,Incontrol,TLO,Machine, how long can theses guys keep up with their horrible results.
and actually they get paid.god
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On August 07 2011 07:38 MorningMusume11 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 07:28 D_K_night wrote:
Perhaps you should answer the question. What would it take, for foreigners to consistently win games off of the best Koreans? Or even approach a 50% win ratio? This question is quite easy to answer... and it's something that most likely non-Koreans will be ever able to possess... which simply is a fanatical, borderline recklessness passion to their craft. It's a combination of not only amazing work ethic, but also a huge desire to want to do what their doing.
Why won't non-koreans ever posses it? Does it have to do with rice? You're saying non-koreans lack work ethics? That they lack desire? Bullshit.
Yes, without a doubt they need to step it up to compete, but you're implying that they are incapable which is flat out wrong. Look at events outside of Starcraft. Do you think athletes like Michael Jordan, Michel Phelps, or Lance Armstrong lack work ethics or passion? How about people in other professions? Wrong. They all have enormous mental strength and passion to get to where they are now. Starcraft in the "foreign scene" lacked that level of dedication because it wasn't possible to make a living off of in in SC1, SC2 is different and we need some truly dedicated individuals to show us some passion beyond what is necessary to propel e-sports forward. SC2 is possible to make a living off, but still isn't as profibitable as it should be. However, with our current "pioneer" progamers we can move the industry forward.
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I really like that the starcraft scene is evolving outside of korea, but it's a bit sad that players aren't able to compete unless they go to korea. I would really like if people would be able to train outside of korea without being at a disadvantage :S
MrBitter you're the man btw
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I think my main problem is that most Korean players don't speak any english at all, so when things have to go through a translator and the players are already very formal due to cultural differences it is often very hard to get any sense of their personalities, sure there are exceptions like MC or Boxer, but in general it is much easier to connect with foreign players.
I watch GSL and i really like it, but seeing Koreans dominate every major foreign tournament is simply not fun, i want foreigners to get better so they can really compete, but if i had to choose between an MLG where i knew that the 6 Koreans in the tournament would dominate, or watch something like Assembly where things were more unknown, i would pick Assembly.
I also think most people are vastly underestimating how much of Starcraft 2's popularity has to go with foreigners participating and hosting tournaments, Brood War was all Koreans all the time, and i think that was a large part in why it never became big outside Korea.
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On August 07 2011 06:26 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 06:01 Sein wrote:On August 07 2011 05:18 farvacola wrote:On August 07 2011 04:53 Iberville wrote:On August 07 2011 04:46 TedJustice wrote:On August 07 2011 04:26 Iberville wrote:On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote:
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea. I don't see what the big deal is about wanting someone from your country to win. Stating that you don't care is certainly your prerogative, as it is someone else's to feel the contrary. On another note, I feel that it is quite ridiculous that some put forth the argument that if your interest in a sport wades as it is dominated by X country means you don't like that sport. International hockey is dominated by three teams mostly, and it's boring. Boring. Boring. Boring. Women's hockey is worst: it's basically Canada vs USA. Boring. Boring. Boring. When a sport is completely dominated by one country... well. I dislike those who will say that I don't like hockey because of what I feel the international sport scene is. Same thing for SC2. I also dislike those who impose upon others a criteria of what it means to be a fan of a certain sport because I don't agree with their point of view; ie: you find tournaments boring because Koreans always wins, that means you don't like SC2; uninstall. That is not an argument. It's imposing your point of view on others. Food for thought. That's fine and dandy, but your country isn't "non-korea". It's silly that people will root for every foreigner, even ones that aren't from their country, but not koreans. I didn't say what you're insinuating. I also don't understand what you mean by "my country isn't 'non-korea'." Although a sentence, it makes no sense. I dislike the word "foreigner", which to me is relative, hence why I prefer to specify by saying "not-this-place". Also something else to think about : not everyone is a hardcore SC2/BW game watcher. Not everyone wakes up at 5 am to watch GSL, not everyone knows the scene. When you're trying to grow the sport, you're trying to bring new people who are ignorant. I'm not saying that Korean players don't help grow the sport (some seem to think that's what I'm writing, which, again, is ridiculous), but stimulating local growth is, however, a great way to help expose a sport and make it grow. I also like how nobody seemed to care about the labour question. Shows how young the crowd is in here. Ummm no, your entire point in regards to labour conditions simply makes no sense. I can't claim to understand the entirety of your experience, but cramped living conditions and multi-family housing is an incredibly common phenomenon in Asian countries, to the point where bunking 4-6 people in a single room is simply the price one pays for living in one of a handful of cities that can claim the most intense population density in the world. Furthermore, the mere fact that professional gaming presents itself as a possible option to those who have the skill or dedication probably strongly affects the decision-making of prospective players, especially in Korea. I realize that you may think you are acting as some sort of advocate for these players, but what have the players themselves said? Although this last point does indeed boil down to conjecture (which is, I may add, what your indictment of living conditions on the players behalf is as well), I can guarantee that given possible living/career options the vast majority of Korean players who live in cramped team house situations would have it no other way, they are able to play the game they love and get better. Out of curiosity, where are you from? I was born and raised in the United States, but I lived in Seoul for 2 years contiguously in high school. At the risk of sounding like a cosmopolitan braggart, I have family in Tokyo, Guangzhou, and Busan, in addition to non Asian countries such as Columbia, Argentina, and Switzerland, and I've lived for months at a time in every place I've mentioned. I'm simply speaking from my experience and knowledge in regards to the cultural studies I undertook in college, I remember being quite surprised at how a lot of my Korean friends in Seoul lived with upwards of 5 people in single or double bedroom flats, only to be even more surprised at how little this mattered to them.
That's interesting. I lived in Seoul for over a decade and what you say doesn't really sound like what I remember. I was under the impression that the multi-generation family houses are rather rare in big cities like Seoul nowadays. Everyone I've known in Korea either had a room for him/herself or shared it with one other sibling. Not saying you're wrong, but just sharing my impressions from when I was over there.
Of course college dorms are a bit different, but then I'm pretty used to seeing triples/even quadriples in the American universities, so I haven't thought much about it.
In the army though, I've heard that you do share a big room with numerous other guys, although most of the starcraft progamers have not been in the army yet.
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Everyone knows this...I think the only foreign player that really has the drive to get to that level is NaNiwa though, everyone else just seems to be more interested in the community (money) side of things than truly improving and trying to be the best.
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On August 07 2011 13:02 Benga wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 04:20 murkk wrote:
I think a lot of the problems stem from the fact that foreign players have so much opportunity to make money doing anything but practicing.
How many top players in NA and Europe are making money streaming, broadcasting, doing shows, and being popular rather than practicing? This is true.The e-fame is ruining things they just get fame and be too ignorant about the actual game.Tlyer,Incontrol,TLO,Machine, how long can theses guys keep up with their horrible results. and actually they get paid.god
Sad, but I have to agree. I sometimes feel like we overhype some of the players. There are some that really deserve the hype (White-Ra, IdrA, SeleCT are few that come to my mind) but the rest, just are not showing the play yet.
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I think after a point even Koreans will get bored if they keep dominating everyone.
I mean hell, look at Womens Hockey. It is basically a three horse race: Canada, The US, and one of Sweden/Finland... but even then it is noncompetitive. The Canadian and American squads beat every other team by 20 goals, and the only entertaining game for me as a Canadian is the Finals.
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I get annoyed by these posts.
A few reality checks for people here:
There are TONS of people who manage to play SC2 10-12 hrs a day, 7 days a week. To say that these pro-gamers are struggling by doing so in a practice environment is a joke. Just about anybody who's playing at a high level plays 6-12 hrs a day BY CHOICE!
The only difference between pro gamers and the other 10% of SC2 players at the top level is that pro gamers are being sponsored by companies instead of their parents/significant other/trust fund/whatever.
I think people need to realize that these pro gamers are not athletes, they are nerds with a severe addiction like everyone else - it just so happens that they've been chosen to entertain the rest of us that don't have the luxury of playing 12 hours a day.
Also the reason Koreans are better than 'Foreigners' is because they have structured practice environments - They don't just log on and play games - they train against certain matchups/builds/mechanics/etc repetitively. I think that 'foreigners' have the ability to do the same thing but it's really something that you need to consciously do and I can see being a pro-team in a pro team house being beneficial to this cause.
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On August 07 2011 01:15 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 01:04 Chargelot wrote:On August 07 2011 00:59 brachester wrote:On August 07 2011 00:55 Cadgers wrote:
I pray we don't end up in the same state as WC3 (a couple of top foreigners and the rest Asians) Consider it is lucky, because with this pace, there will be now foreingers at all, sc2 is still new and korean are already dominating sc2 scene. sc2 is still new You know, when America was new, the British were dominating. What is true now, at this very moment, is not necessarily true in 10 years. That applies to everything. This doesn't make any sense.
Yes, it does. He's simply saying that what is the case at this moment is not necessarily the case in 10 years. We have no idea what happens in 10 years, and if you disagree with that you are quite simply incorrect. It could be the case that Sweden is totally dominating every other country in 10 years for all we know.
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On August 07 2011 17:02 iCanada wrote:
I think after a point even Koreans will get bored if they keep dominating everyone.
I mean hell, look at Womens Hockey. It is basically a three horse race: Canada, The US, and one of Sweden/Finland... but even then it is noncompetitive. The Canadian and American squads beat every other team by 20 goals, and the only entertaining game for me as a Canadian is the Finals.
Winning money must be boring.
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On August 07 2011 19:48 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 17:02 iCanada wrote:
I think after a point even Koreans will get bored if they keep dominating everyone.
I mean hell, look at Womens Hockey. It is basically a three horse race: Canada, The US, and one of Sweden/Finland... but even then it is noncompetitive. The Canadian and American squads beat every other team by 20 goals, and the only entertaining game for me as a Canadian is the Finals. Winning money must be boring.
Once the sport gets to a sever point of "boring", there wont be any money to win because the industry died from lack of interest. I feel that was more in the direction of his point.
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You can practice 11 hours a day, put in all the time and training, but if your doing it in Europe, or North America, you still won't catch the Koreans cause their 11 hour days are vs Much better competition, other Koreans.
The only way to compete is play vs the Koreans daily like Huk is doing. Otherwise, all the training in the world won't matter. The Koreans are getting better at a faster rate than everyone, the gap is growing.
If Koreans continue to win everything, and the skill gap remains this large, the fan base will deteriorate and e-sports will suffer. Its in everyone's interest for Foreigners to get their act together.
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Sure 12-14 hours make you good, but why do you keep focusing on that? It's how effective you are training that sets you apart.
Having a team house lets you discuss and bring forth your creativity. I have big hopes for the EG team house.
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On August 07 2011 17:02 iCanada wrote:
I think after a point even Koreans will get bored if they keep dominating everyone.
I mean hell, look at Womens Hockey. It is basically a three horse race: Canada, The US, and one of Sweden/Finland... but even then it is noncompetitive. The Canadian and American squads beat every other team by 20 goals, and the only entertaining game for me as a Canadian is the Finals.
Koreans are not playing for Team Korea, they're playing for themselves and to a lesser extent their individual teams.
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On August 07 2011 19:55 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 19:48 superbabosheki wrote:On August 07 2011 17:02 iCanada wrote:
I think after a point even Koreans will get bored if they keep dominating everyone.
I mean hell, look at Womens Hockey. It is basically a three horse race: Canada, The US, and one of Sweden/Finland... but even then it is noncompetitive. The Canadian and American squads beat every other team by 20 goals, and the only entertaining game for me as a Canadian is the Finals. Winning money must be boring. Once the sport gets to a sever point of "boring", there wont be any money to win because the industry died from lack of interest. I feel that was more in the direction of his point.
Pretty much this. I'd add that you don't win money at the Olympics.
Womens hockey is pretty well a prime example of what happens when there isn't really any competition in a sport. There isn't really any money in it at all... it got to the point where it was boring because the Canadian team dominated everyone (and we have even had some players go play in European Mens leagues.
However, at this point the game has pretty well come to a screeching halt. There is no money for the women to make money playing the game anywhere besides Canada and the US (and that is only because of our national development programs... basically 40 women travel together and play hockey funded by Hockey Canada/USA Hockey), no real pro leagues, and no real fans who watch anyway. Furthermore, because there is no real competition there are less and less talented women coming in from nations around the world, including Canada/US.
I guess the point is that we need Foreign pros to step it up because as silly as it sounds in order for SC2 to be a long term success we need it so there is a continuous market that isn't going to die. In order for that to happen we need a continued stream of players, a continued stream of sponsorships, and most importantly new up and comers.
I suppose that leaves me with this... who is more likely to make the average foreign kid want to pursue becoming a pro gamer: HuK, or some guy who doesn't even speak english? If we don't have enough guys for the next generation to relate to, we run out of talent. We run out of talent and the scene gets stale (atleast out here in foriegn land) despite the amount of success we are seeing in the SC2 esports community. If suddenly we have no new players, and the fans are getting bored, the sponsors will proceed to high tail it out of there and the industry just dies.
Korean dominance is hurting E-Sports. Literally. Thats not to say that it is an immediate concern, but I really do feel that it has to be a concern somewhere along the line.
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Many ppl who hype the term "e-Sports" don't even reallize that they truely would favor the opposite. The people like livetreams here on tl. Pov streams with their favored players. They want to interact with them in the forums here on tl. Ppl who hype "eSports" are happy as it is in the moment. But eSports means something completly different. It means there will be no replays because of tactic leak. No practice stream sessions. When players really evolve to professional gamers they can't allow leaks. They cannot allow to waste time in forums. They cannot allow to fool around with some funny ppl and do things for a community without getting paid AND the certainty to not lose time against other gamers. I personally don't want to see the gamers to take it as serious as some of the koreans do. I don't like to see many nice guys vanish just because they cannot compete anymore. I liked the community thing till now and how so many known guys competed against each other. I don't know the korean guys but I know "our guys" since they show themself here on tl.
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EPT
