On June 12 2011 14:32 nalgene wrote: Will they plan on adding the DA/ Corsair / Arbiter / Reaver back in? They were pretty unique... especially the Reaver with its ultra slow movement that required some micro to use it or used in conjunction with the shuttle or warp prism. DA could be useful vs biological units with the maelstorm spell. Arbiters with the good ol mobility + recall into someone's base would be pretty fun...
The Phoenix is far, far, FAR superior compared to the Corsair. The Graviton Beam makes mass air much more useful compared to... the Disruption Web. It actually makes Phoenixes much more viable. Not only that, their move shot allows them to kite Mutalisks while taking no damage. At best, Corsairs could only move shot Mutalisks while being on the offensive.
The Reaver is good. But I abuse the fact that Colossi can shoot regardless of whether or not it's up on the high ground. The Reaver's Scarab AI depends on ground pathing. This doesn't really show an improvement of performance in units from BW to SC2.
Dark Archons barely see any use. They're not as useful as you'd think. High Templars already have Feedback as their native spell, any decent Protoss will still use Forcefields to trap Zerg units (thereby having virtually the same effect as Maelstrom), and we already see how Mind Control is being used through Neural Parasite. There's only an offensive use, and there's no real bonus in controlling enemy units in SC2 in any other way.
The only thing I agree with is replacing the Mothership with the Arbiter. Vortex is an overall downgrade from Stasis Field, and other than that the Mothership is a glorified Arbiter that comes with spells without research.
Agreed, the phoenix is a better unit, except for the fact that it can shoot while moving without any micro, which is silly. Kiting should be done actively, not passively.
I've seen beta videos of the Phoenix before the shooting while moving change.
...
Dear lord that thing sucked the Corsair's left nut.
On June 12 2011 15:40 I Hott Sauce I wrote: All Blizzard has to do is take out sentries from this game, and bam, near perfection.
Then give back Hydra speed :-(
You basically want Protoss to be absolutely unplayable in the early game? PvT would be impossible since every Protoss would roll over and die to even a 2 rax Shell rush. PvZ would end up with Protosses rolling over and dying to masses of Zerg units from Spawn Larva. Far from even being "near perfection."
And it seems like someone doesn't even spread their creep. And why would you want Hydras to have their speed upgrade again? Their role in the game is already non existent. Changing their speed wouldn't have much of an impact.
dude changing the speed of the hydras would have a dramatic effect...we can finally freaking stutter micro them and run away when off creep. currently, if you commit in an engagement with hydras off creep, you are forced to fight to the death because they can't run at all.
i wish they would make ovie speed faster so we can lift up hydras and run away; as it stands now...ovies are stupid slow.
But even for this thread, examining a unit - the reaper, which we had to suffer two months of 5 rax reaper before blizzard finally nerfed it into oblivion, which really only existed because of the "cool idea" to give it an impossibly cheap speed upgrade in the first place.
That's not how it happened.
For most of the Reaper's development, it didn't have a speed upgrade. It had D-8 Charges, which were an activated ability that threw timed explosives. When they made D-8 into a building attack rather than an ability (which they did fairly late. D-8 charges were still in Battle Report 4), they then added speed. It wasn't a "cool idea;" it was just something to give Reapers some kind of upgrade.
And even the corrupter, where Browder has admitted numerous times they had no fucking idea what to do with it as far as ability, or even attack went, but stayed in the game for god knows why? Because it looks cool? Yet they admit the Archon could have been on the cutting table.
So, where was the community outcry when the Corruptor was shown during SC2's development? Oh that's right, there wasn't one. Nobody cared about it, nobody said it should be removed. There was no community outcry at all.
Remember: this thread is about Blizzard being supposedly out of touch with the community.
I'm not sure why the overseer needs an overhaul either. I don't think it 'needs' to be interesting. It's job is to detect and scout enemy bases... it does that... oh yea, it can also contaminate... what am i missing?
It needs an overhaul because it doesn't do anything except that. And the Zerg already have the fewest units of any race; if one of their units could stop sucking, then they effectively get an additional unit. And that opens up a range of possibilities.
The OP didn't even watch the video with the Dustin Browder and Sen interview. They were discussing if rushes in starcraft 2 were too safe, and the response was that at this point, they weren't aware of any safe rush builds currently being used. (4 warpgate was mentioned, which was a safe rush build, but that was nerfed)
Not to mention, it's pretty hard to find any big studios who pays as much attention to their community as Blizzard. Capcom is probably the sole exception.
To me it seems that the OP is about a year late. Most of those arguments were made when the game was in its infancy and it definitely seems like Blizzard is listening as of late.
Your first part about rushes seems really outdated. The smallest of maps are gone and the tournaments are picking their own specific maps that make rushing really difficult. This problem is basically fixed right now.
Also, you mentioned that bit about the redesigning of units based off the community poll and I think they are right to not listen to the community there. Colossus might be uninteresting, but changing it or redesigning it would not be a great idea. It is the backbone to the late game Toss army and any changes to that will severely change the balance of the game. Roaches are definitely fine, although boring, and zealots are boring too. Overseers will not place high in votes like that because non-zerg players could care less and they are not as popular of a unit as the rest of the vote-getters.
Also, you think that because 500 or so community members voted on a silly poll that Blizzard should listen? Aren't there like 2 million other people who bought this game?
My thoughts as to why Blizzard is out of touch is a little removed from gameplay mechanics and is mostly focused on no cross realm play and no LAN support.
But even for this thread, examining a unit - the reaper, which we had to suffer two months of 5 rax reaper before blizzard finally nerfed it into oblivion, which really only existed because of the "cool idea" to give it an impossibly cheap speed upgrade in the first place.
That's not how it happened.
For most of the Reaper's development, it didn't have a speed upgrade. It had D-8 Charges, which were an activated ability that threw timed explosives. When they made D-8 into a building attack rather than an ability (which they did fairly late. D-8 charges were still in Battle Report 4), they then added speed. It wasn't a "cool idea;" it was just something to give Reapers some kind of upgrade.
And even the corrupter, where Browder has admitted numerous times they had no fucking idea what to do with it as far as ability, or even attack went, but stayed in the game for god knows why? Because it looks cool? Yet they admit the Archon could have been on the cutting table.
So, where was the community outcry when the Corruptor was shown during SC2's development? Oh that's right, there wasn't one. Nobody cared about it, nobody said it should be removed. There was no community outcry at all.
Remember: this thread is about Blizzard being supposedly out of touch with the community.
I'm not sure why the overseer needs an overhaul either. I don't think it 'needs' to be interesting. It's job is to detect and scout enemy bases... it does that... oh yea, it can also contaminate... what am i missing?
It needs an overhaul because it doesn't do anything except that. And the Zerg already have the fewest units of any race; if one of their units could stop sucking, then they effectively get an additional unit. And that opens up a range of possibilities.
nobody cried about corruptor back then cuz they could shut down buildings and cannons instantly....
corruption is a joke right now. sorry I tried it but it's a joke. we need something flashier for sure.
On June 12 2011 15:56 StifSokSamurai wrote: My thoughts as to why Blizzard is out of touch is a little removed from gameplay mechanics and is mostly focused on no cross realm play and no LAN support.
The thing is, those are the two things that Browder and his design team have the least input on. Browder doesn't get to decide if the game has cross-realm or LAN play; those decisions happen above his pay grade.
But even for this thread, examining a unit - the reaper, which we had to suffer two months of 5 rax reaper before blizzard finally nerfed it into oblivion, which really only existed because of the "cool idea" to give it an impossibly cheap speed upgrade in the first place.
That's not how it happened.
For most of the Reaper's development, it didn't have a speed upgrade. It had D-8 Charges, which were an activated ability that threw timed explosives. When they made D-8 into a building attack rather than an ability (which they did fairly late. D-8 charges were still in Battle Report 4), they then added speed. It wasn't a "cool idea;" it was just something to give Reapers some kind of upgrade.
And even the corrupter, where Browder has admitted numerous times they had no fucking idea what to do with it as far as ability, or even attack went, but stayed in the game for god knows why? Because it looks cool? Yet they admit the Archon could have been on the cutting table.
So, where was the community outcry when the Corruptor was shown during SC2's development? Oh that's right, there wasn't one. Nobody cared about it, nobody said it should be removed. There was no community outcry at all.
Remember: this thread is about Blizzard being supposedly out of touch with the community.
I'm not sure why the overseer needs an overhaul either. I don't think it 'needs' to be interesting. It's job is to detect and scout enemy bases... it does that... oh yea, it can also contaminate... what am i missing?
It needs an overhaul because it doesn't do anything except that. And the Zerg already have the fewest units of any race; if one of their units could stop sucking, then they effectively get an additional unit. And that opens up a range of possibilities.
nobody cried about corruptor back then cuz they could shut down buildings and cannons instantly....
corruption is a joke right now. sorry I tried it but it's a joke. we need something flashier for sure.
I'm not disagreeing with your point that the Corruptor could be much improved. I'm just saying that Blizzard was not "out of touch" when they developed the Corruptor.
And I wasn't talking about the Beta changes. I was talking about the years before then. Back when the Corruption mechanic was turning killed air units into air turrets. You know, back when Blizzard had the time to rip out units and add new ones.
But even for this thread, examining a unit - the reaper, which we had to suffer two months of 5 rax reaper before blizzard finally nerfed it into oblivion, which really only existed because of the "cool idea" to give it an impossibly cheap speed upgrade in the first place.
That's not how it happened.
For most of the Reaper's development, it didn't have a speed upgrade. It had D-8 Charges, which were an activated ability that threw timed explosives. When they made D-8 into a building attack rather than an ability (which they did fairly late. D-8 charges were still in Battle Report 4), they then added speed. It wasn't a "cool idea;" it was just something to give Reapers some kind of upgrade.
And even the corrupter, where Browder has admitted numerous times they had no fucking idea what to do with it as far as ability, or even attack went, but stayed in the game for god knows why? Because it looks cool? Yet they admit the Archon could have been on the cutting table.
So, where was the community outcry when the Corruptor was shown during SC2's development? Oh that's right, there wasn't one. Nobody cared about it, nobody said it should be removed. There was no community outcry at all.
Remember: this thread is about Blizzard being supposedly out of touch with the community.
I'm not sure why the overseer needs an overhaul either. I don't think it 'needs' to be interesting. It's job is to detect and scout enemy bases... it does that... oh yea, it can also contaminate... what am i missing?
It needs an overhaul because it doesn't do anything except that. And the Zerg already have the fewest units of any race; if one of their units could stop sucking, then they effectively get an additional unit. And that opens up a range of possibilities.
nobody cried about corruptor back then cuz they could shut down buildings and cannons instantly....
corruption is a joke right now. sorry I tried it but it's a joke. we need something flashier for sure.
I'm not disagreeing with your point that the Corruptor could be much improved. I'm just saying that Blizzard was not "out of touch" when they developed the Corruptor.
And I wasn't talking about the Beta changes. I was talking about the years before then. Back when the Corruption mechanic was turning killed air units into air turrets. You know, back when Blizzard had the time to rip out units and add new ones.
I'm confused, the community wasn't playing the game back then, it was all in house. How can they be out of touch or in touch? The community has no way of knowing how a unit works out except from 4 vods, where David Kim just stomps other game testers.
I'm saying they are out of touch because of the responses they give compared to what the community wants.
"Do you really want chat channels?" as an example, when the community wanted chat channels for at least 10 months, and it took only around 1 month after the decision to implement it.
But even for this thread, examining a unit - the reaper, which we had to suffer two months of 5 rax reaper before blizzard finally nerfed it into oblivion, which really only existed because of the "cool idea" to give it an impossibly cheap speed upgrade in the first place.
That's not how it happened.
For most of the Reaper's development, it didn't have a speed upgrade. It had D-8 Charges, which were an activated ability that threw timed explosives. When they made D-8 into a building attack rather than an ability (which they did fairly late. D-8 charges were still in Battle Report 4), they then added speed. It wasn't a "cool idea;" it was just something to give Reapers some kind of upgrade.
And even the corrupter, where Browder has admitted numerous times they had no fucking idea what to do with it as far as ability, or even attack went, but stayed in the game for god knows why? Because it looks cool? Yet they admit the Archon could have been on the cutting table.
So, where was the community outcry when the Corruptor was shown during SC2's development? Oh that's right, there wasn't one. Nobody cared about it, nobody said it should be removed. There was no community outcry at all.
Remember: this thread is about Blizzard being supposedly out of touch with the community.
I'm not sure why the overseer needs an overhaul either. I don't think it 'needs' to be interesting. It's job is to detect and scout enemy bases... it does that... oh yea, it can also contaminate... what am i missing?
It needs an overhaul because it doesn't do anything except that. And the Zerg already have the fewest units of any race; if one of their units could stop sucking, then they effectively get an additional unit. And that opens up a range of possibilities.
nobody cried about corruptor back then cuz they could shut down buildings and cannons instantly....
corruption is a joke right now. sorry I tried it but it's a joke. we need something flashier for sure.
I'm not disagreeing with your point that the Corruptor could be much improved. I'm just saying that Blizzard was not "out of touch" when they developed the Corruptor.
And I wasn't talking about the Beta changes. I was talking about the years before then. Back when the Corruption mechanic was turning killed air units into air turrets. You know, back when Blizzard had the time to rip out units and add new ones.
dude we are not saying that the blizz is out of touch when they FIRST developed the corruptor. I mean come on we would KILL to have corruptors that turn air units into turrets. We ain't saying anything bad about that.
Instead, we are just sad about how the corruptor is NOW.
On June 12 2011 15:56 StifSokSamurai wrote: My thoughts as to why Blizzard is out of touch is a little removed from gameplay mechanics and is mostly focused on no cross realm play and no LAN support.
The thing is, those are the two things that Browder and his design team have the least input on. Browder doesn't get to decide if the game has cross-realm or LAN play; those decisions happen above his pay grade.
I agree I should have emphasized that it is mostly Activision where my resentment in this regard lies.
On June 12 2011 14:31 jalstar wrote: Immortals ARE more boring than Colossi, it's just that Colossi are much more "noticeable" because they're big and do lots of damage, and immortals just kind of sit there.
But you barely have to micro immortals because of hardened shield, while if you don't position and micro colossi well they'll get killed by vikings or corruptors in a few seconds.
Immortals are one of my favorite units in the game. I really wish I had more opportunities to build them. Colossi are just terrible units.
Phoenix before moving shot was actually worthless against air units. I dont know if they were bugged, or something else... but they were the worst unit imaginable.
On June 12 2011 16:06 TheRabidDeer wrote: Phoenix before moving shot was actually worthless against air units. I dont know if they were bugged, or something else... but they were the worst unit imaginable.
I actually enjoyed how in order to micro them "properly" you had to control it like a vulture more or less. That being said I wasn't a wealth of knowledge with the protoss units so if there were other glaring issues with them I missed it.
On June 12 2011 16:06 TheRabidDeer wrote: Phoenix before moving shot was actually worthless against air units. I dont know if they were bugged, or something else... but they were the worst unit imaginable.
I actually enjoyed how in order to micro them "properly" you had to control it like a vulture more or less. That being said I wasn't a wealth of knowledge with the protoss units so if there were other glaring issues with them I missed it.
There was no "proper" micro with them, they had a delayed attack and slide too much, they could never beat muta's because of it.
On June 12 2011 14:30 Jtn wrote: I think maybe you, the OP, is out of touch? Blizzard has proven it listens to the community, and no, it can't make sweeping changes randomly in WoL. I would suggest you wait till HoS, where they're clearly going to take the game in a whole new direction.
This topic is unneeded.
Stopped scrolling down the page here. Blizzard doesn't listen to it's community because there is no Blizzard anymore. There is only Activision-Blizzard. Important distinction to make when discussing how the community is treated/responded to, particularly given Activision's history with the subject (it's poor, to put it kindly, if you follow the kinds of changes Activision brought to Blizzard).
As for the OP: Ties into what I said above, ATVI really doesn't like being contradicted when it comes to their games, and since Sen's points were so painfully obvious, it really bugs me that they wouldn't even give a "real" answer to his concerns. Oh, and I can't stand roaches. Good unit, sure, but just so.. Uninteresting. Maybe it's a lore thing, maybe it's that they just spit some green stuff in a bored kind of way.
At least in Brood War, when a hydralisk spit some green stuff, it had a decent sound associated with it.
The way Blizzard has gone about SC2 has been very authoritarian, and very presumptuous. They force ideas and concepts onto the community despite feedback that it simply doesn't work or is wanted. Chat channels is the glorified example of Blizzard's mentality towards the community; examine how long it took them to finally "cave" into the wishes of the community and further, for implementation of the feature.
Pretty sure you can blame Activision on that and not Blizzard, as Activision handled Bnet 2.0 and let Blizzard handle the actual "gameplay" (campaign, multiplayer). I remember reading this somewhere, correct me if it's wrong.
dude changing the speed of the hydras would have a dramatic effect...we can finally freaking stutter micro them and run away when off creep. currently, if you commit in an engagement with hydras off creep, you are forced to fight to the death because they can't run at all.
They're the same speed as terran infantry.
Yes, we have stim, but you can't constantly stim. You have creep. Which is just LIKE having stim movement speed for hydras.
Just saying. I agree they're under used, but nothing drastic like a speed change.
HOW can colossus be uninteresting? Lol I'm sorry but that's the most retarded thing I've read on team liquid. Colossus may be inherently overpowered but I don't see how it's uninteresting... I play protoss and I can go colossus every game and not be "uninterested". What does uninteresting even mean? Boring? And I play random as well in team leagues and I know an alarm goes off every time I go up against colossus, because it becomes prioritized as something I need to take out asap. People just mad cuz colossus are strong
And why aren't tanks uninteresting? They slow every game the fuck down, especially TvT
EPT
