Hello TLers! I do not tend to post much on TL, but I frequently browse TL and lurk around. This may have been known already but I haven't found anything related to this on my searches, so I felt the need to share this.
Among the three races, their workers: The SCV,Probe and Drone. I have found that Drones have some sort of delay or cancel in their initial attack animation when the target slows down due to a turn angle in certain situations. It is much easier to show this with a video:
Theoretically, Drones will never be able to hit a Probe or SCV, as you can see by the above video. The drone gets attack gets cancelled off the target when reaching in range of a moving (yet slowing due to the turning angle) target and thus the attack is delayed/cancelled causing no damage.
Compared to the SCV or the Probe, Once they reach in range of their target, they will instantly cause damage without bouncing off their moving target. Here is a video with SCV/Probe attacking.
Conclusion: Theoretically, Drones will never be able to hit a SCV or a Probe, ALSO! Theoretically, with perfect micro, Drones can be kited without ever being hit. This may not be game breaking, but It does give Zerg a certain disadvantageous situations early game I believe and should be fixed.
---EDIT--- This also applies to Dark Templars (Thanks to ZeromuS) and Ultralisks.
I can actually see a problem with this, for example, when kiting Ultralisks, Though, I do not know if it's intended by blizzard or so.
On May 20 2011 21:01 MavercK wrote: SCV weapon
Damage point - 0.1670 Period - 1.5 Range 0.1 Range Sloop 1
Probe weapon
Damage point - 0.1670 Period - 1.5 Range - 0.1 Range Sloop - 1
Drone weapon
Damage point - 0.2500 Period - 1.5 Range - 0.1 Range Sloop - 1
Wow! Great find! I didnt know that. I think you are right, it may not be game breaking. However, on a pro level i can imagine folks finding some use for that...
Intersting find. As u said it's not game breaking but it does seem like a bug. I can't think of any logical reason why a drone should be disadvantaged in such a way compared to and SCV or probe. Maybe post it on the blizzard forums.
ultralisks have a similar problem. off creep an ultra can never melee a worker because they just run out of the claws every swing.
it seems like zerg units have the only true melee attacks and the other races have range 0.5 or so ranged attacks that are just listed as melee. ive also seen on peoples streams zealots hit stuff at quite a funny range sometimes due to similar oddities. maybe its all a conspiracy!
I knew for a while that the Drone wouldnt hit when u turn and that the probe does. Didnt know that the SCV will hit as well. Always thought is was due to the fact that probes have "long range" attack with there little tickeling lazers.
ground units cannot be moving and attack at the same time that said there is a sloop value for all weapons that dictates upon beginning the attack if you unit is still in this range it will finish the attack. most units have a sloop of about 1 range.
all workers have this drones just have the largest delay before the damage is dealt i guess. probes being instant and SCVs being pretty fast.
I can't help but think someone like this was done on purpose, it is to make things like Bunker rushes more viable against Zerg because the Drone misses attacks?
Could someone compare a Probe trying to kill an SCV making a building to a Drone? Would there be any difference?
I can't help but think someone like this was done on purpose, it is to make things like Bunker rushes more viable against Zerg because the Drone misses attacks?
Could someone compare a Probe trying to kill an SCV making a building to a Drone? Would there be any difference?
it affects anything where the targetted unit moves more than 1.1 units in under 0.25 seconds
Pretty much every zerg has known the results of this since they started playing and had to try and kill things. Drones are also terrible at attacking SCVs when they move around what they are building.
It would be 10x easier to stop protoss cannon rushes if drones weren't so terrible, and easier to deal with bunker rushes if drones kept attacking the SCV even if it moved while building. Drones really have problems.
The real problem with this isn't that Drones are underpowered compared to Probes and SCVs, it's that they're underpowered compared to Zerglings. I'd definitely encourage a fix.
and while we are at it regenerating health shield and repair for everyone, also hiding your damaged unit in a building ?
Probes in bw could kite the other workers, you could increase the aspd of scv, by swiftly right clicking on the enemy. and yet it never was a real problem.
So scvs can be sniped while building, this is clearly a disadvantage and should be fixed too ?
the drone was always the weakest worker, thats because you had more then the opponent, because of the early larva mechanic and you can make a weakened drone into a full health building. Its a needed disadvantage to keep the game fair. (first 2 lings can kill the worker, first marine and zealot can't with proper micro, so workers of other races have a bit more free room till the lings come)
And no one forces you to attack that worker with a single drone (they will die anyway even unkited, okay a toss will have to retreat to regen 6 shields). So you need 2 anyway and then this is not an issue. You can't just look at the 1 on 1 even the workers are different in sc.
I mean yeah some are complaining about the probe, can warp in buildings while away, have shield regene for longest time of annoiance etc. But no one ever wanted to have probes (that can kill every other worker with almost no micro), with 0 shield regeneration.
PS: change was sneaked in with the healt nerf on scvs, so please lets revert this fix !
damage point - 0.1670 period - 1.5 range 0.1 range sloop 1
Probe weapon
damage point - 0.1670 period - 1.5 range - 0.1 range sloop - 1
drone weapon
damage point - 0.2500 period - 1.5 range - 0.1 range sloop - 1
so yea. drone is abit slower but it's a quarter of a second so i dunno
Does not matter if it's 1 millisecond if drone can't hit the target then it's unfair.
well like people have said in BW workers were vastly different
SCVs had 60 hp but they couldn't attack unless they were stopped and they had the lowest sloop of all time SCVs also had a RIDICULOUS attack speed drones and probes could do moving shot
damage point - 0.1670 period - 1.5 range 0.1 range sloop 1
Probe weapon
damage point - 0.1670 period - 1.5 range - 0.1 range sloop - 1
drone weapon
damage point - 0.2500 period - 1.5 range - 0.1 range sloop - 1
so yea. drone is abit slower but it's a quarter of a second so i dunno
Does not matter if it's 1 millisecond if drone can't hit the target then it's unfair.
well like people have said in BW workers were vastly different
SCVs had 60 hp but they couldn't attack unless they were stopped and they had the lowest sloop of all time SCVs also had a RIDICULOUS attack speed drones and probes could do moving shot
they were vastly different.
Ahh yeah so in BW they were different, that's why we need buggy drone in SC2 - just to be different. Good logic
On May 20 2011 21:14 Wtfux wrote: I used to kite scvs in BW with probe micro ^_^
I never played BW, but probes were OP according to IdrA. He sounded pretty serious, though it's likely he was joking.
probe had the longest range out of all workers. But that aside, they could just block your only gas early game, and wosh around the base (worker had a better turning speed then lings, etc so they could outmicro 6 lings with easy and keep the gas blocked by always rebuilding it (more an issue for terran, that needed tanks or die once dragoon range finished), oh and they could place manner pylons (block some mineral patches and workers)
awww can't find the vid with the gosu probe micro anymore, was somewhere in pimpest play vids.
damage point - 0.1670 period - 1.5 range 0.1 range sloop 1
Probe weapon
damage point - 0.1670 period - 1.5 range - 0.1 range sloop - 1
drone weapon
damage point - 0.2500 period - 1.5 range - 0.1 range sloop - 1
so yea. drone is abit slower but it's a quarter of a second so i dunno
damage point has nothing to do with the actual animation, isn't it? (if you set anim to 2 secs with damage point at 0, damage comes out and anim finishes 2 seconds later?)
Well the thing is that with proper unit control, and you can still hit probes / scvs, and also the drones > SCVS and Probes, in 1v1 fight, so no I see no problem here.
On May 20 2011 21:47 GGzerG wrote: Well the thing is that with proper unit control, and you can still hit probes / scvs, and also the drones > SCVS and Probes, in 1v1 fight, so no I see no problem here.
You can't hit if opponents micros his probes/SCVs, did you watch video? It's very unfair for zerg, especially because they need to get their expansion earlier and it is usually blocked by probe/SCV already. Try blocking opponents nexus with drone, you won't keep it alive even for 20 secs lol
Its been like this for a long time. Truth be told I dont think it matters, at least not v P (assuming the p doesn't suck). That hatch isnt going down before you pull a second drone or make lings. Also you wont actually take any damage on the drone when they kite like this, acceleration should prevent it.
I have to say im suprised ppl havent noticed it, do they just amove to their expo and figure theyre done ¯\_(ツ)_/¯?
This is pretty bad considering zergs have to pull drones often vs rushes. Anyone with a bit of kiting/micro can avoid quite a bit of damage from workers, it's not much but I guess it could still make the difference in close fights.
damage point - 0.1670 period - 1.5 range 0.1 range sloop 1
Probe weapon
damage point - 0.1670 period - 1.5 range - 0.1 range sloop - 1
drone weapon
damage point - 0.2500 period - 1.5 range - 0.1 range sloop - 1
so yea. drone is abit slower but it's a quarter of a second so i dunno
damage point has nothing to do with the actual animation, isn't it? (if you set anim to 2 secs with damage point at 0, damage comes out and anim finishes 2 seconds later?)
damage point is the delay after the attack has started it is the exact point damage is applied to target you change this to sync it with the animation or for balance reasons
damage point - 0.1670 period - 1.5 range 0.1 range sloop 1
Probe weapon
damage point - 0.1670 period - 1.5 range - 0.1 range sloop - 1
drone weapon
damage point - 0.2500 period - 1.5 range - 0.1 range sloop - 1
so yea. drone is abit slower but it's a quarter of a second so i dunno
damage point has nothing to do with the actual animation, isn't it? (if you set anim to 2 secs with damage point at 0, damage comes out and anim finishes 2 seconds later?)
damage point is the delay after the attack has started it is the exact point damage is applied to target you change this to sync it with the animation or for balance reasons
oh just confirming
does sc2 have that range motion buffer thing in the editor? only used the wc3 ones
That only works with probe on patrol command because if its not on patrol command the probe deaccelerates enough to get hit. And in practice if a player does use the patrol command, the zerg player can easily anticipate the path and get hits off. I'm not sure why Blizzard decided to make the drone hit like this though, maybe it has to do with worker vs worker battles where the drone might survive extra hits because of HP regen so they nerfed it that it always gets hit first.
The same thing happens with Dark Templar against workers actually. I noticed this the other day, where the DT attack animation takes too long to actually hit the moving unit even if the DT catches up initially. same thing with the drones I guess :/ That really sucks.
I didn't know this but I've noticed since a long time ago drones always lose in a 1v1 fight against probe/scv. When both are approaching each other at the same time/range. I think this has something to do with it.
Anyways Blizzard need to fix this as zerg may need to pull TWO drones to fight against ONE Scv/probe! You lose like 100 minerals which is unacceptable at best and gamebreaking at worst.
This is why you have to bring 2 drones out to fight a probe/scv when they're blocking your natural :| put 1 on auto attack and micro the other to get in front of the probe and attack or you'll hardly damage it. I always knew it, I just didn't know it was exclusive to drones. Kinda sucky...
I always wondered why i can't delay a probe building a nexus as long as they delay me building my hatch, I just thought my control was bad (still might be), but I didn't realize that the probe can't miss the same way my drone does.
On May 21 2011 02:25 R3N wrote: I didn't know this but I've noticed since a long time ago drones always lose in a 1v1 fight against probe/scv. When both are approaching each other at the same time/range. I think this has something to do with it.
Anyways Blizzard need to fix this as zerg may need to pull TWO drones to fight against ONE Scv/probe! You lose like 100 minerals which is unacceptable at best and gamebreaking at worst.
wtf are you talking about a drone will win against a probe if it isn't microed
I've always noticed this when zergs put a drone on my scouting probe ;>. Looks kinda cool to see a drone making the animation but not doing anything . I'll just go ahead and say it's revenge for the increasing trend of roach/ling allins! + Show Spoiler +
On May 21 2011 02:17 ZeromuS wrote: The same thing happens with Dark Templar against workers actually. I noticed this the other day, where the DT attack animation takes too long to actually hit the moving unit even if the DT catches up initially. same thing with the drones I guess :/ That really sucks.
Yes this, bothers me so much when you're chasing down marines because even though DT are as fast as workers, they can't really do step micro because you need to wait for their attack to register. You can also cancel their attack if you move before the damage point is reached.
On May 21 2011 02:17 ZeromuS wrote: The same thing happens with Dark Templar against workers actually. I noticed this the other day, where the DT attack animation takes too long to actually hit the moving unit even if the DT catches up initially. same thing with the drones I guess :/ That really sucks.
Yes this, bothers me so much when you're chasing down marines because even though DT are as fast as workers, they can't really do step micro because you need to wait for their attack to register. You can also cancel their attack if you move before the damage point is reached.
yeah so its not just me. I think we should figure out how to report these bugs to blizzard without getting lost in the bliz forums.
I knew something was up!! I sent a drone chasing a probe after I got his sheilds all the way down.. after that, I noticed his shields were all the way up.. I never got a shot in.
To be fair though, in a 1v1 peon battle.. drones win!
On May 20 2011 21:13 Acritter wrote: The real problem with this isn't that Drones are underpowered compared to Probes and SCVs, it's that they're underpowered compared to Zerglings. I'd definitely encourage a fix.
Make it so zerglings can mine. I reckon that'd be a really good idea. Also infestors should be able to neural parasite a whole mineral patch into the hatchery.
On May 21 2011 02:25 R3N wrote: I didn't know this but I've noticed since a long time ago drones always lose in a 1v1 fight against probe/scv. When both are approaching each other at the same time/range. I think this has something to do with it.
Anyways Blizzard need to fix this as zerg may need to pull TWO drones to fight against ONE Scv/probe! You lose like 100 minerals which is unacceptable at best and gamebreaking at worst.
wtf are you talking about a drone will win against a probe if it isn't microed
^this. How you lose to a probe is beyond me, the only way you lose if he moves an inch to regen his shield.
This is seriously new to people? Not really sure whether this truly is a bug as such, (since it is the case with some other units as well iirc including Dark Templar) or whether it is actually just an intended consequence of the attack animation.
On May 21 2011 03:22 Olsson wrote: Blizzard won't see this so posting here is good for telling the community but theres no point if you want a change.
Tell that to the guy that got phoenixes 'moving shot'. Blizzard does read these forums.
I don't really mind this. If you don't want your hatchery blocked anyway you need 2 drones regardless. Thats 2 versus 1. In which case, superior micro should ALWAYS win that fight.
If they all attacked with the same damage this would be relevant. Except that it's not, because the drones are stronger and do more dmg than both an SCV and probe. Who win's in a 1v1 fight? Always the drone.
On May 21 2011 03:33 Murfshake wrote: If they all attacked with the same damage this would be relevant. Except that it's not, because the drones are stronger and do more dmg than both an SCV and probe. Who win's in a 1v1 fight? Always the drone.
SCVs, Probes, and Drones all do 5 damage on a 1.5 cool down.
On May 21 2011 03:33 Murfshake wrote: If they all attacked with the same damage this would be relevant. Except that it's not, because the drones are stronger and do more dmg than both an SCV and probe. Who win's in a 1v1 fight? Always the drone.
Drones don't win because they're stronger, they win because they regenerate health during the fight, giving them effectively the same health as an SCV.
If they all attacked with the same damage this would be relevant. Except that it's not, because the drones are stronger and do more dmg than both an SCV and probe. Who win's in a 1v1 fight? Always the drone.
I did notice this myself, I always wondered about it, if there is one thing I really want fixed in the game this is it, would make getting that hatch down a lot easier
This mostly just affects hatchery blocking, worker harassment, and cannon rushes, not so much bunker rushes. It is odd that the race that has to pull workers the most often to defend in the early game has weaker workers. Most likely it's a result of balancing worker rushes, something which really doesn't need a patch to balance.
Guys.... it's not a bug Blizzard intentionally put this in the game, they even make a whiff sound when they miss. I play zerg and it's fucking stupid I'll be the first to admit, but when your statistically changing unit properties some asshole did this on purpose. Whether or not it needs to be reevaluated and changed is a different story but please stop calling it a bug.
Theoretically, Drones will never be able to hit a SCV or a Probe, ALSO! Theoretically, with perfect micro, Drones can be kited without ever being hit.
Are you saying a probe/scv can kill a drone by kiting? I don't understand that.
Also, I think this kind of difference is interesting; we can see epic, exciting micro like Jaedong showed in BW when he would use 1-2 drones to kite SCVs building the Rax in the early game, but definitely should be looked at to make sure it's not imb4.
Darn. No wonder why I always have a hard time trying to get down my fast expansion. Is this intended? I'm not sure, but I don't see why they should be different. :l
On May 21 2011 03:33 Murfshake wrote: If they all attacked with the same damage this would be relevant. Except that it's not, because the drones are stronger and do more dmg than both an SCV and probe. Who win's in a 1v1 fight? Always the drone.
Drones don't win because they're stronger, they win because they regenerate health during the fight, giving them effectively the same health as an SCV.
I don't see how this is game-breaking. If your sending one drone to take care of a worker blocking a hatch from going down with no micro, your just doing it wrong. Saying drones are bad because one can never kill a probe while on a-move is silly.
damage point - 0.1670 period - 1.5 range 0.1 range sloop 1
Probe weapon
damage point - 0.1670 period - 1.5 range - 0.1 range sloop - 1
drone weapon
damage point - 0.2500 period - 1.5 range - 0.1 range sloop - 1
so yea. drone is abit slower but it's a quarter of a second so i dunno
Does not matter if it's 1 millisecond if drone can't hit the target then it's unfair.
well like people have said in BW workers were vastly different
SCVs had 60 hp but they couldn't attack unless they were stopped and they had the lowest sloop of all time SCVs also had a RIDICULOUS attack speed drones and probes could do moving shot
they were vastly different.
Well this starcraft 2, it's a different game. This should be fixed imo way too easy for protoss to worker harrass
On May 21 2011 04:57 Philo wrote: I don't see how this is game-breaking. If your sending one drone to take care of a worker blocking a hatch from going down with no micro, your just doing it wrong. Saying drones are bad because one can never kill a probe while on a-move is silly.
Equally though, a probe can kill my scouting drone by being set on a-move and forget.
I think most zergs have noticed that sometimes a drone misses its attack. That's why they have to be very carefully microed in combat. However, I never realized that the same doesn't apply to scvs and probes. This requires an official explanation and/or a fix.
6pool with drones might have been too strong at some point so they nerfed drones in a subtle way or something.
Just speculation of course. But I don't think you should rule out the possibility that it's like that for a reason. Not to mention in a real game, you can execute a surround or flank or something with drones to hit something.
6pool with drones might have been too strong at some point so they nerfed drones in a subtle way or something.
But you use drones to defend against a six pool? 6 pool, drone all-in would also benefit the one with more drones. Protoss and Terran has other ways to deal with 6 pool / drone all-ins
6pool with drones might have been too strong at some point so they nerfed drones in a subtle way or something.
But you use drones to defend against a six pool? 6 pool, drone all-in would also benefit the one with more drones. Protoss and Terran has other ways to deal with 6 pool / drone all-ins
Like I said, it was just speculation. That probably wouldn't be the reason for it. But there could still be one.
Do people want little cute stuff like this to be in the game or not? Wasn't that what made BW what it is?
On that note. If you see the protoss/terran setting their worker on a chain of rally points, you can just predict where the worker will go to and take a shortcut with the drone in order to get a hit. That requires just a little bit of micro. It's not like there is something else going on in that stage of the earily game...
Seriously guys... "this makes zerg underpowered" "this is unfair" ?! You need to go to a quiet room and think for a minute.
I am sorry if this offends somebody, but I had to say this.
I'd prefer they change everything to behave like the drones rather than vice versa. It's more interesting if players actually have to micro their workers to kill opposing scouts.
OOOOOLD news, but it's about time people actually talked about it. I noticed this since a long time ago and find it ridiculous.
With regards to the ultralisk, the attack delay used to be so terrible, it couldn't even hit a fleeing spore/spine crawler!
On May 21 2011 05:28 nShade wrote: Do people want little cute stuff like this to be in the game or not? Wasn't that what made BW what it is?
On that note. If you see the protoss/terran setting their worker on a chain of rally points, you can just predict where the worker will go to and take a shortcut with the drone in order to get a hit. That requires just a little bit of micro. It's not like there is something else going on in that stage of the earily game...
Seriously guys... "this is unfair" ?! You need to go to a quiet room and think for a minute.
I am sorry if this offends somebody, but I had to say this.
It's not going to offend anyone, it's just going to make you look ignorant.
It is unfair... why would you say it is not unfair? in BW there was a disparity of attack power in SCVs (when not microed) but it was balanced out due to the health of SCVs.
"cute stuff like this" is not a reasonable point to make when referring to Brood war, you'll have to be more specific, but to answer the question NO it is NOT AT ALL what made BW what it is, you're delusional if you think that's the case
Manually targetting the worker doesn't take SOME micro, it takes a lot of micro, and at any level excluding the higher ones, that IS a problem for players. I'm not saying this is a huge problem, it is a small problem for sure, but a problem nonetheless.
On May 20 2011 21:03 memcpy wrote: Playing devil's advocate. Think what fixing this would mean for people trying to run away from 12 drone rushes! Zerg player here =P. Great find btw.
Oh no! Imagine it, a viable early aggression strategy for zerg. TERRIBLE!
On May 21 2011 05:18 TedJustice wrote: Might be intentional, for imbalance reasons.
6pool with drones might have been too strong at some point so they nerfed drones in a subtle way or something.
Just speculation of course. But I don't think you should rule out the possibility that it's like that for a reason. Not to mention in a real game, you can execute a surround or flank or something with drones to hit something.
On May 21 2011 05:28 nShade wrote: Do people want little cute stuff like this to be in the game or not? Wasn't that what made BW what it is?
On that note. If you see the protoss/terran setting their worker on a chain of rally points, you can just predict where the worker will go to and take a shortcut with the drone in order to get a hit. That requires just a little bit of micro. It's not like there is something else going on in that stage of the earily game...
Seriously guys... "this makes zerg underpowered" "this is unfair" ?! You need to go to a quiet room and think for a minute.
I am sorry if this offends somebody, but I had to say this.
it's not a big deal at all. I'd just like to be able to send one drone to kill the probe instead of two, but it doesn't make much difference.
You are forgetting that a drone has instant 1 hp regene on hit. So in worker vs worker this is always one extra hit. So the max hp of a drone is 1 higher then shown or a complete worker hit.
oh my why do i bother this is a troll catcher thread ...
edit: well at least it made me look at some of the by MooN starcraft bw vids ^^ they are really epic
your test id not accurate, i know for a fact that the angle the enemy probe turns with matters, in the scv example the angle for the attack is sharper, making it easier to hit then the angle used for the dt/drone
I'd like to see video with scv killing a drone with 'perfect micro' no hp loss. I'm pretty sure that's impossible i.e. you can run from a drone but you can't attack it without taking hits.
Noticed this the other day, found it really annoying when the person could just patrol-circle my base and I could do nothing about it until I got lings out, which was frustrating (to say the least).
Hope it gets fixed soon, it's not a huge issue but it is an issue nonetheless.
I knew about this but assumed the same goes for the other workers..guess not. I don't mind it because it adds micro to the game but it's kind of dumb that it does not to apply to scvs and probes.
To those talking about BW differences among workers we need to remember that they also mined differently, had different Hit point values as well. In SC2 the only difference among the 3 workers is this attacking bug. In SC2 I believe all workers were designed to have the same effective HP (regen and shield regen making up for the sheer HP scvs have compared to the other workers) so this bug being the only difference to me means it is indeed a bug
It's an incredibly simple fix, change Drone attack into a hit scan instead of a missile. I think original drone had a missile effect rather than melee slap.
And for the love of god please change around the effects for Zerg, seriously a slap!??!?! He's got claws, and his attack is a SLAP? They need to fire the sound designer. Ultralisk has MASSIVE claws and they sound like samurai warriors (they sound like what Dark templar should sound like)
On May 21 2011 06:07 wankey wrote: It's an incredibly simple fix, change Drone attack into a hit scan instead of a missile. I think original drone had a missile effect rather than melee slap.
And for the love of god please change around the effects for Zerg, seriously a slap!??!?! He's got claws, and his attack is a SLAP? They need to fire the sound designer. Ultralisk has MASSIVE claws and they sound like samurai warriors (they sound like what Dark templar should sound like)
On May 21 2011 05:40 FeyFey wrote: You are forgetting that a drone has instant 1 hp regene on hit. So in worker vs worker this is always one extra hit. So the max hp of a drone is 1 higher then shown or a complete worker hit.
oh my why do i bother this is a troll catcher thread ...
edit: well at least it made me look at some of the by MooN starcraft bw vids ^^ they are really epic
SCVs have 55 health and probes regen shields to compensate for this, if you forgot.
On May 21 2011 05:40 FeyFey wrote: You are forgetting that a drone has instant 1 hp regene on hit. So in worker vs worker this is always one extra hit. So the max hp of a drone is 1 higher then shown or a complete worker hit.
oh my why do i bother this is a troll catcher thread ...
edit: well at least it made me look at some of the by MooN starcraft bw vids ^^ they are really epic
SCVs have 55 health and probes regen shields to compensate for this, if you forgot.
You know what else is annoying, the fact that when a worker turns at an acute angle they get attacked by the worker following it. I mean c'mon. Whenever I see a zerg who actually knows what he's doing I can't get the little drone out of my base until I get a sentry or stalker (how imba+ Show Spoiler +
not really -_-
), so for you guys to be complaining that you can't get probes out until you get lings, i'm sorry, but quit whining.
As to the OP's point, definitely cool to know, will try and take advantage of it when blocking hatches and stuff (hopefully the zerg doesn't bring 2 drones )
The damage point stat is actually very interesting, and I would be intrigued to see a statblock for this on all of the melee units. I definitely agree this isn't gamebreaking to any kind of degree, and nobody should bring any of this up as some massive imbalance or reason for losing. But it is something we can look at and wonder about.
lol at people saying BW probe was "OP"... balance is an all-unit-encompassing issue, its not as simple as worker vs worker.
the biggest imbalance in Brood War was 6 zerglings appearing in a protoss base when they had 1 zealot. the fact that probes had a suprising ability to defend their mineral line from this was the only thing preventing ling rushes in ZvP being as automatically game-ending as they are in sc2 (if the block fails) ..and in BW they still caused significant economic setback, often enough to influence the outcome.
incredible that iDrAma would whine about bw probes.. so much for his moral legitimacy
If you are chasing a probe around in a circle, obviously it is not the smartest thing to just keep chasing it in a circle, but if you instead change the path of the probe and just go in the direction in which the probe will move, then you can hit it a lot of the time, that is how I do it when I am able to pick off probes to expand.
On May 21 2011 08:47 iTzAnglory wrote: Not sure if this is a bug, similar to how in BW Probes and Drones could kite SCVs, but no one actually took the APM to seriously abuse that.
Pretty interesting find. I've always noticed the occasional worker who "survives" a swing by a DT with no damage taken, or low HP probes/SCVs who don't die when they get poked on the way out of the base by a drone. IMO, this is a bug. Blizz needs to fix this. It's hard to believe it's intentional or somehow a balancing mechanism against 12 drone rush, which is taken care of by rush distance.
Great find indeed. I always wondered why when I send my drone to attack the probe, and his probe was sent to attack my drone on his base, my droe would die first, even in Patrol route. That explains why o_O
I noticed it as I play zerg, I just thought it was the case for the other races too. I always just pull 2 drones and get one to chase, and the other to intercept the probe blocking the expo. Idra does this too. Maybe after they fix this, it won't be necessary.
Really hope Blizzard fixes this for the actual offensive units (DT/Ultralisk), as for those units it's quite a big disadvantage.
Whether it has been done for a reason with the drone, I'm not sure. In my opinion, they should just equalize it for all workers, seems weird to only have Zerg differ. Unless there is a very good reason, of course.
Yep, I've noticed melee units often have a tendency to miss attacks when the enemy unit "dodges" I dont really think this is a bug? I mean, if its possible to dodge projectile attacks like marauder shots or banshee shots, it should make sense we can dodge melee attacks?
Sure, it may be a bug, but it has almost no relevance to real games for the following reasons.
The only time this applies is when you're chasing someone blocking your hatch, but nobody in their right mind would right click the SCV/Probe in that instance. You have to do intercepts every circle they do so you can get the probe down as fast as possible. Intercepting is faster even if this artifact you're describing DIDN'T exist. So fixing it would only benefit those without the APM to intercept the blocking SCV/Probe.
I always knew that drones can miss their targets, but you can stop that with predicting their movement and cutting them off, obviously there was no micro in those videos.
I think this needs to be fixed, ESPECIALLY for the Ultras, no wonder they suck so bad
I didn't know that DTs also missed and they should be fixed too. I don't see a logical reason why high costing units should be able to miss.
On May 21 2011 11:54 arbitrageur wrote: Sure, it may be a bug, but it has almost no relevance to real games for the following reasons.
The only time this applies is when you're chasing someone blocking your hatch, but nobody in their right mind would right click the SCV/Probe in that instance. You have to do intercepts every circle they do so you can get the probe down as fast as possible. Intercepting is faster even if this artifact you're describing DIDN'T exist. So fixing it would only benefit those without the APM to intercept the blocking SCV/Probe.
unless you pull 2 drones, if the guy micros his probe/scv as well as you micro your drone you'll still be very hard pressed to kill it. obviously it's not a big deal, it would just be nice if it were fixed.
It would've been easier for Blizz to keep all the miners exactly the same, so I think this is more likely intended than any kind of slip-up on their part.
3 reasons I can think of off that bat would be: - to weaken 6 pool /w drones all in - because zerg can produce drones a little faster - because zerg are generally expected to have more drones than the opponent's SCVs/probes in an evenly matched game (hence why they can produce them a little faster)
I think this is deliberate by blizzard. The drone's attack is significantly higher than that of other workers, so they may have implemented this to prevent worker rushes from crushing opponents.
lol this is so annoying! think about how it all adds up in a typical game...
basic zvp:
Run around toss base with drone scout, toss just clicks one probe to attack drone and leaves it, zerg must micro drone to keep safe from a-clicked probe
meanwhile back at zerg base:
Toss just sets up waypoint for scouting probe, zerg must micro his attack drone while multitasking scout drone if he wants to damage waypoint probe, zerg says fuck it and saves mining time, toss consistently gets effortless probe scout
On May 21 2011 11:10 Coolguy wrote: Oh man i remember drones having more range than scvs/probes in BW, and scvs could attack while moving. damn imbalance :D
Technically drones were actually considered melee in Bw despite what their attack looked like
the probe was the only one that was actually able to kite the other 2 if given proper micro
Perhaps if this is kept in though, it will lead to epic micro skill and battles.
For example, in BW, if Mutas flew in a specific pattern (something like a triangle, i'm not too familiar) it will cause the Scourge AI to bug and not explode -- hence giving the Mutalisks enough space to kill the Scourge.
I sincerely believe that if this is intended my Blizzard, that that is kinda messed... Especially ultralisk kiting. How useful is it to make an expensive, highest tier unit that can't hit a stimmed terran bio even if the animation happens?
IMO, if the animation happens, the damage should happen, like the zealot charge thing, kinda.
In Warcraft 3, a melee unit missing a fleeing faster unit if the attack animation was played out was extremely rare, notwithstanding special abilities and effects. If the animation connects, it should do damage, no matter what. Come on, Blizzard, get a grip!
IdrA quote often when streaming will miss killing a probe by 5 hp before a pylon goes down at his natural. If even one hit is dodged because of this then it's worth it to spend 5 mins and patch it,
This will have to be fixed, it's pretty stupid. To all the people saying it doesn't mean anything; The bug also happens when you pull drones to defend against a stimmed t army that does the pull back and shoot micro, drones will stop moving to attack and then not get attacks off.
i feel little things like this should be left in the game as they can be fixed with a little micro. yes the lower players will have a harder time but most high level zergs will just micro the drone. also the circle used in the video and what is required for a hatch block are a lot different. its not that bad.
Jesus, like 75% of the people in this thread only read the OP. I don't think this is a problem at all; its all balanced out in the end.
When chasing the scout, if you just micro a bit you should be able to get in the damage anyways. Drones still do the same DPS as an SCV/probe.
Fixing this problem for DT and Ultra seems to make sense, though. Have you ever played one of those Cat and Mouse UMS games? YOU CAN SEE THE CAT ATTACK BUT THAT FUCKING PROB---err, MOUSE WONT DIE
This is working as intended, the drone was given a higher damage point than other workers for precisely this kind of micro. Please stop trolling and calling it a bug. Just admit you want a buff to your early hatch builds.
But go ahead and "fix" it, just give SCVs 55 HP back.
On May 21 2011 19:27 David451 wrote: This is working as intended, the drone was given a higher damage point than other workers for precisely this kind of micro. Please stop trolling and calling it a bug. Just admit you want a buff to your early hatch builds.
But go ahead and "fix" it, just give SCVs 55 HP back.
Then can you tell me why the scv and probe shouldnt also miss if the drone was to run away?
On May 21 2011 18:06 Crazyeyes wrote: Jesus, like 75% of the people in this thread only read the OP. I don't think this is a problem at all; its all balanced out in the end.
When chasing the scout, if you just micro a bit you should be able to get in the damage anyways. Drones still do the same DPS as an SCV/probe.
Fixing this problem for DT and Ultra seems to make sense, though. Have you ever played one of those Cat and Mouse UMS games? YOU CAN SEE THE CAT ATTACK BUT THAT FUCKING PROB---err, MOUSE WONT DIE
What's up with these replies? how can you argue that it is acceptable that the drone, as the only worker unit, is different in such a crucial way? Even if it is possibly negated by micro, shouldn't all workers be the same? At least nerf the probe and SCV as well then! Only nerfing the drone just seems too god-damn thoughtless and out-of-synch with the game spirit and how the races should have equal chances in the same situations.
This kind of unit design just further concretes the fact that Zerg is the most intensive race in all possible levels of the game.
The biggest problem with this is how effective stutter step microing marines away from drones with 2 rax suddenly becomes, since if you do it correctly, they cant even attack you back. The question is basicly if it's intended or just happened for balance reasons to be this way.
On May 21 2011 18:06 Crazyeyes wrote: Jesus, like 75% of the people in this thread only read the OP. I don't think this is a problem at all; its all balanced out in the end.
When chasing the scout, if you just micro a bit you should be able to get in the damage anyways. Drones still do the same DPS as an SCV/probe.
Fixing this problem for DT and Ultra seems to make sense, though. Have you ever played one of those Cat and Mouse UMS games? YOU CAN SEE THE CAT ATTACK BUT THAT FUCKING PROB---err, MOUSE WONT DIE
but you're not reading the thread either. how are zerg meant to handle super early marine pressure if we cant hit the marines. aswel as stopping the pylon block if the other players know of it.
Never really noticed it. I've always manually micro'ed my drone in worker fights when trying to get that hatch down. If this gets fixed it'll be nice, it'll make things like that less of a hassle.
But with the clear irrefutable evidence seen here. CLEARLY, EFFING CLEARLY, THERE ARE IMBALANCES IN THIS GAME. =O
On May 21 2011 19:27 David451 wrote: This is working as intended, the drone was given a higher damage point than other workers for precisely this kind of micro. Please stop trolling and calling it a bug. Just admit you want a buff to your early hatch builds.
But go ahead and "fix" it, just give SCVs 55 HP back.
Yeah, they wouldn't just randomly give this unit higher damage point for no reason while the other two workers just so happen to have a lower damage point.
On May 21 2011 21:21 crabz wrote: when we are at it i want my 60hp fast attack SCV's too
For even easier Terran 1 base all in's? No thanks.
I think he means to remove Auto Repair in for 60 hp SCVS ( They didn't seem to have a problem in BW anyways and the map pool has become much different nowadays with massive maps and some maps having corner spawns ( Tal'Darim Altar ) instead a metalopolis design ( doesn't use corners in this map ).
They were changed due to the tiny map distances they used to have ( Steppes of War )
On May 21 2011 21:30 videogames wrote: Well this surely affects bunker rushes and stuff, should be fixed asap.
How is it a "bug" when the designers intended to type in 0.2500 ( That's 6 key inputs ) while the other two are given a 0.1670 ( Also 6 key inputs )...
Seems unreasonable to assume someone would randomly miss click the last 4 keys when it's clearly intentional by design.
Bunker rushes have existed since 2001 and with 60 hp without a problem...
On May 21 2011 21:30 videogames wrote: Well this surely affects bunker rushes and stuff, should be fixed asap.
How is it a "bug" when the designers intended to type in 0.2500 ( That's 6 key inputs ) while the other two are given a 0.1670 ( Also 6 key inputs )...
Seems unreasonable to assume someone would randomly miss click the last 4 keys when it's clearly intentional by design.
Bunker rushes have existed since 2001 and with 60 hp without a problem...
probably all the workers had the drone's number, but when they switched it to .1670, they forgot the drones. for some reason.
I thought this was common knowledge? one probe can block a hatch for an eternity vs one drone, but a drone cannot block a nexus for long due to the probe hitting the drone.
That's why most zergs brings two drones to their first hatch, to try and deal with the probe.
On May 21 2011 22:21 OFCORPSE wrote: I thought this was common knowledge? one probe can block a hatch for an eternity vs one drone, but a drone cannot block a nexus for long due to the probe hitting the drone.
That's why most zergs brings two drones to their first hatch, to try and deal with the probe.
They definitely had good foresight when they designed it such that the player creating the hatch would have to fight their way to getting it rather than making it easy for them to do so.
This feels like it matters most for the Ultralisk actually. In game, it quite often looks like the Ultralisk is hitting (attack animation + hit sound) but it doesn't feel like they're doing that much damage. And that's because they're not! They're already pretty slow anyway and get in each others way. So they're actually even worse than they look.
On May 21 2011 21:30 videogames wrote: Well this surely affects bunker rushes and stuff, should be fixed asap.
How is it a "bug" when the designers intended to type in 0.2500 ( That's 6 key inputs ) while the other two are given a 0.1670 ( Also 6 key inputs )...
Seems unreasonable to assume someone would randomly miss click the last 4 keys when it's clearly intentional by design.
Bunker rushes have existed since 2001 and with 60 hp without a problem...
probably all the workers had the drone's number, but when they switched it to .1670, they forgot the drones. for some reason.
Or perhaps because drones are the only worker capable of recovering while being attacked that they have a different input.
On May 21 2011 22:55 theSAiNT wrote: This feels like it matters most for the Ultralisk actually. In game, it quite often looks like the Ultralisk is hitting (attack animation + hit sound) but it doesn't feel like they're doing that much damage. And that's because they're not! They're already pretty slow anyway and get in each others way. So they're actually even worse than they look.
But they dodge the claw attacks by moving away from them... it's like stopping to punch, but your arms couldn't reach... They move quite fast when given creep ( 1.3 x 2.95 )
On May 21 2011 22:55 theSAiNT wrote: This feels like it matters most for the Ultralisk actually. In game, it quite often looks like the Ultralisk is hitting (attack animation + hit sound) but it doesn't feel like they're doing that much damage. And that's because they're not! They're already pretty slow anyway and get in each others way. So they're actually even worse than they look.
But they dodge the claw attacks by moving away from them... it's like stopping to punch, but your arms couldn't reach... They move quite fast when given creep ( 1.3 x 2.95 )
It would nice if the game didnt make a sound that corresponds to hitting the units but instead made a whiffing sound so you know you are being kited and you dont expect yourself to doing damage
Nice find, this is also one ridicilous thing that is "broken" with Zerg, which Blizz does not even intend to take care about. They don't love us Zerg man!
E: Oh well, one of the main dudes behind sc2 has said that he doesn't know how to play Zerg..
Q: "So few zerg players has made it to top 200 (NA), does it not indicate zerg is underpowered?" Chris: "That’s not actually the case,” says Chris. “We have fewer Zerg players overall. I avoid playing Zerg as much as possible because I find them to be just more complex in general. Zerg, or rather larvae management is harder for me to deal with, so I don’t enjoy playing them as much.”
That quote is from an old interview, but I think nothing has changed in larvae management/etc so far.
i've been annoyed at this for a long time. to get your hatch down you need to bring 2 workers cause 1 simply won't ever give damage to the blocking worker.
well not that i whine about zerg :S alot of stuffs in zerg are simply 'half-production'. look at roach speed and burrow icon. but somehow this worker attack value can be set wrong is beyond ridiculous lol
>_> current blizz design team really have no love for zerg.
On May 21 2011 21:30 videogames wrote: Well this surely affects bunker rushes and stuff, should be fixed asap.
I think this is probably the biggest and most useful statement here since while SCVs no longer construct "within" the building they are making, the scvs does still move and if a drone whiffs a few times while the scv is building then that makes a pretty big difference imo.
On May 20 2011 20:48 Bond(i2) wrote: Bring back the Broodwar drone!
You mean the acid spines from Drones? I agree.
Actually when I first started playing Starcraft 1, I thought Drones were the better workers since "it looked" like they were ranged (like the Hydralisk) and therefore better than the other workers which had "Melee" attacks.
On May 21 2011 22:55 theSAiNT wrote: This feels like it matters most for the Ultralisk actually. In game, it quite often looks like the Ultralisk is hitting (attack animation + hit sound) but it doesn't feel like they're doing that much damage. And that's because they're not! They're already pretty slow anyway and get in each others way. So they're actually even worse than they look.
But they dodge the claw attacks by moving away from them... it's like stopping to punch, but your arms couldn't reach... They move quite fast when given creep ( 1.3 x 2.95 )
It would nice if the game didnt make a sound that corresponds to hitting the units but instead made a whiffing sound so you know you are being kited and you dont expect yourself to doing damage
It actually does make a whiffing noise when the drones attack gets "dodged"
I don't fix it's gonna be fixed until.. heart of the swarm or something. This kind of "bug" (intentional nerf to the zerg race) make me feel so mad about Blizzard's approach of balance...
On May 21 2011 21:30 videogames wrote: Well this surely affects bunker rushes and stuff, should be fixed asap.
Bunker rushes have existed since 2001 and with 60 hp without a problem...
In StarCraft 1 Drones had a very short ranged attack (Range 1, I think), and in SC2 they are melee. I'm pretty sure the 1 range thing fixed this problem (attack animation could get off in time), but I'm not completely sure.
I mean, that the probe delivers the hit is fine, I think. Their electric zap does look like it has a bit of range to it, while the SCV/Drone attack is strictly melee (I know they technically all have the same range).
So yeah, pretty weird that this affects only Zerg and not Terran as well.
Yeah I never knew about this, and as a Zerg player this pisses me off. 2 rax pressure is hard enough to hold off as it is... why can't we have the same workers everyone else does? I don't understand at all.
As for the Ultras and DTs, I don't think it is as bad as the drone simply because they don't have counterparts of the other two races to be compared with, but having a worker that is straight up inferior to the other two races' workers is annoying especially considering the early game abuse Zerg has to use these workers to deal with.
A good find, but even theoreticaly cannot be implemented in a micro battle. When a probe tries to delay a hatchery, the zerg player should always bring 2 drones. And in any kind of worker rush, you will have to stop to attack and thus allowing the drones to close enough.
On July 20 2011 03:55 ApBuLLet wrote: Yeah I never knew about this, and as a Zerg player this pisses me off. 2 rax pressure is hard enough to hold off as it is... why can't we have the same workers everyone else does? I don't understand at all.
As for the Ultras and DTs, I don't think it is as bad as the drone simply because they don't have counterparts of the other two races to be compared with, but having a worker that is straight up inferior to the other two races' workers is annoying especially considering the early game abuse Zerg has to use these workers to deal with.
In this context, marines are slow enough not to be able to kite drones. And keep in mind every stop-shoot makes them even easier to surround.
Btw, in brood war probes had +1 range over the other workers (and slightly better attack mechanics), but that wasn't a huge imbalance, as there were a lot of things to balance it .
This "bug" is very unfair early game and there are no reason why Blizzard wouldn't be able to fix it (come on, changing one value to another one ? Why drone melee value is different from the 2 others workers in the first place ?!).
It looks like it's intended, is there any official response about it ?
I don't think it is unfair at all, because you can take a turn with you're drone and let the probe or scv attack it (causing the scv drone or probe to stop) then u can get the expansion up most of the time, atleast this works a lot for me.
My opinion is that this may have been intentional to make it harder for zergs to get away with fast expos but now that the other 2 races have quite solid fast expand builds they should be made even.
I used to think I was seeing things when my drones weren't doing damage. This is a big deal and should be fixed. BTW thanks for the advice on keeping workers alive from DT's :-D
It's sad to see that this topic, although posted on Blizzard's forums, has not been addressed. I do not think it is fair that drones are nerfed like that.
The ONLY possible reason as to why this could be intentional is because drones can recover HP while attacking, giving them the instant advantage VS other workers. SCVs have extra HP to compensate, and Protoss have shields. However, if a Protoss micros their probe even half-assed, they can easily take out a drone 1v1 since their shield regeneration is much, much faster than HP regeneration.
Even still, it puts Zerg in a much more unfair situation in terms of defending early-game cheeses (6-7 pool, 2 rax, proxy pylons and/or cannons) since the latter two require the drones to pick off the SCV/Probe as quickly as possible.
Isn't it obvious that blizzard just wants the probe to be the most overpowered unit? It happened in brood war, now they're doing it again in SC2. They even nerf'd the SCV!
If you think this is bad, check this out: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Mining Probes is also the only worker that can build more than one thing at a time... without dying too! And they also have the fastest regen, wtf!
kind of makes sense to me, considering that drones and ultralisks need to bite, dark templars need to swipe while probes and an scv just needs to poke.
EPT
I hate them! making me pull an extra worker just to get my rax up QQ
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