EG.IdrA The Gracken VS FXOSheth The Chef (What I wanted a cool name too)
May 2 2011 2:00 PM EST The Showmatch Will Begin!
This showmatch is set to both have a great ZvZ match up for players to watch and who better to show us how then EG.IdrA! Since I'm writing this, I'll go ahead and say I'm definetly the underdog, but who knows! ZvZ is a volatile match and you never know how it will turn out!!!
This showmatch is for200$. The winner will take ALL leaving the loser nothing, but wasted time. EG.IdrA has been crushing the composition in IPL as well as NASL while I've been doing well in NASL. We've both been fighting for the coveted (slightly!) spot as #1 on NA ladder. As of this write up we are both #2 and #4. Idra is 2 points behind the #1 player and sure to catch up shortly. This match is going to hopefully bring some great games to the community.
This showmatch will be streamed LIVE at FXOSheth's Stream. I will actually be discussing How and Why I make decisions while playing in my match. You will get to see the match streamed from an awesome observers point of view at AskJoshy's Live stream! AskJoshy's Stream He will also have VODS hopefully up by the evening at AskJoshy's Youtube
The map pool is any MLG, TSL or GSL map currently being played. There will be no observers allowed except for the caster and players. Disconnects will be decided by one random person we ask on the stream. (LOL J/K)
Its only going to be from my stream, thus my point of view. Also, I feel like I used to much caps, if a mod would adjust it to VS instead of the huge VERSUS, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!
On May 01 2011 08:15 Sheth wrote: Since I'm writing this, I'll go ahead and say I'm definetly the underdog, but who knows! ZvZ is a volatile match and you never know how it will turn out!!!
Ho-ho-ho, I smell subtle cheese-pool implications!
Can't wait to check out the showmatch, just because ZvZ can actually be very nailbiting to watch.
Hey pretty cool. I'll have to catch the VODs but I like the idea Rooting for Sheth just 'cause he's the underdog. Idra's like 17-1 or something stupid like that in ZvZ right now haha.
lol sheth the chef. sure to be a classic match up. We haven't had too many incredible displays of ZvZ in spotlight and it hink this match up will show some awesome games. The use of infestors in zvz has really spiced up the match up.
On May 01 2011 08:34 DarkRise wrote: stick vs stone hmm that's not an even match lol just kidding I think Idra's ZvZ is good but i haven't seen Sheth's ZVZ so idk
Yeah, I personally have not seen Sheth ZvZ in a bit so I'm excited.
On May 01 2011 08:55 TrANCE, wrote: but it's a ZvZ i don't think anyone should play a showmatch that's a mirror mu personally i always find mirrors to be the most boringest games
Look past the match-up and realize that these are(quite likely) the top 2 zergs in North America right now.
On May 01 2011 08:33 marxgarza wrote: The Gracken better watch out cause the Chef is going to be cooking up something fierce
Maybe something like Grackaroli?
Maybe some tasty Grack N' Cheese?
But yeah, really excited for this showmatch, I'm not sure who I want to support (Two of my favourite players =P) but I know we're going to see some fantastic games!
Looking forward to this. ZVZ is a very interesting matchup and Idra is just amazing at it. I'm afraid Sheth is pretty outmatched, but I hope for 5 good games. Despite liking both players I will have to root for Idra though as he has such a nice calculating style, and while he is not creative in a crazy manner, he is pushing the envelope in his own manner.
I feel like the pictures were deliberately chosen to paint this as a match between a cold, emotionless killing machine and an all-around friendly people's zerg... What's going on here Sheth?
do you mean his sc1 numbers? because until Nestea played dimaga he hadn't lost a single zvz on Korean tv.
? I'm just comparing Idra's ZvZ domination to Jaedong's BW ZvZ domination. Yeah I know Nestea hadn't lost a series until he played Dimaga but I don't think that's super relevant to what I was saying, it's just another player who is dominating the same matchup in another scene.
On May 01 2011 11:54 Azarkon wrote: I feel like the pictures were deliberately chosen to paint this as a match between a cold, emotionless killing machine and an all-around friendly people's zerg... What's going on here Sheth?
On May 01 2011 12:47 LAN-f34r wrote: Will this be recorded for later viewing? If so, where can the be found?
Justin.tv automatically holds the vods of live shows so just look at sheth's Justin page and they are ordered in Time/Date. I sometimes watch the vods of his random ladder games when there are no zergs i'm interested in streaming live.
Idra+sheth+spanishiwa are the best Sometimes slush is worth watching also. The European zergs are good players but they usually have awful music which grates the nerves...
Anyway great idea for a showmatch! The ultimate would be an all zerg 8 man tournament including some of the Euro zergs.
im sorry but... Idra's ZVZ is on another level... since that beating he took by zenio in the gsl, hes gotten crazy good at zvz and said its his best matchup
h.o.l.y. s.h.i.t.! I've been hoping for something like this to happen. Sheth is playing extremely well on the ladder and should be quite on par with IdrAl. I think it will be freaking awesome :D Good luck!
I can't wait! Though I will most likely still be getting my braces off(after having them on for 8 years!) Both are fantastic players. IdRa is the clear favorite, but I would love to see Sheth pull of some wins(or even the series!) Good luck to both players and I hope they are good games!
This is really cool but I'm not sure about the talking during the match. Idra's zvz is really good, wouldn't you want to be 100% concentrated on the game?
Didnt say no I said little and seriously I have seen him make poor decisions in GSL as well as in TSL I dont question his mechanics but some of his decisions have not really made me be all that convinced in him being the greatest of all time ever and so on;). Kinda like Tastosis talking about how great Nada is when he really has lost allmost every game i have seen him play;)
Force it to the late-late game ZvZ with spinecrawler walls, thats by far the most intense match up for me because of all the nydus, dropping and all that.
I love the hate - antihate for Idra. It's gotten to the point where every single game he loses is hyped up as bm or very good opponent. While all the games where he totaly trashes his opponent (Loads and loads of these) are completely ignored.
Sheth can win a game or two by 10pooling or going banelings. IdrA only loses a ZvZ when he runs his lings into a bane, or when he gets 10pooled when going hatch first.
On May 01 2011 18:56 Igaryu85 wrote: Didnt say no I said little and seriously I have seen him make poor decisions in GSL as well as in TSL I dont question his mechanics but some of his decisions have not really made me be all that convinced in him being the greatest of all time ever and so on;). Kinda like Tastosis talking about how great Nada is when he really has lost allmost every game i have seen him play
You haven't been watching the right games then. One does not make 4 consecutive Ro8's in the GSL without winning a fair share of matches.
I've always found zvz to be a fluid matchup. Its going to be very intresting to watch the macro zerg style of idra vs the more creative style of sheth.
Sheth is such a stud. Laying it down for a show match against the best foreign Zerg when you're ALSO a foreign Zerg on your own stream... that's pretty neat. When he first advertised his stream and how it would be different from the other 1000 pro streams (which is what the other 1000 pro streams say, too), I didn't know whether he'd deliver. (No offense, Sheth, but every pro streamer says the same stuff about their stream being 'different'.) But this is actually pretty darn cool, and mixed with Sheth's solid play of late (MLG Dallas and NASL), his intriguingly mysterious nature (why did he miss so many tournaments? Is he part of the mafia?), and just his general coolness/mellowness, I've just become a major Sheth fan.
On May 02 2011 01:42 zarepath wrote: Sheth is such a stud. Laying it down for a show match against the best foreign Zerg when you're ALSO a foreign Zerg on your own stream... that's pretty neat. When he first advertised his stream and how it would be different from the other 1000 pro streams (which is what the other 1000 pro streams say, too), I didn't know whether he'd deliver. (No offense, Sheth, but every pro streamer says the same stuff about their stream being 'different'.) But this is actually pretty darn cool, and mixed with Sheth's solid play of late (MLG Dallas and NASL), his intriguingly mysterious nature (why did he miss so many tournaments? Is he part of the mafia?), and just his general coolness/mellowness, I've just become a major Sheth fan.
sheth is a good mannered badass zerg player. that is how he is different.
not to say idra hasn't made strides recently :D but that is how he stands out.
I had a dream which predicted the outcome of this match. It was pretty vivid and I remember the majority of it so I figured I'd share it with everyone.
It starts off with me swimming in a local lake. Upon diving in I notice that there are roughly one hundred other men swimming underwater. It strikes me that there is some sort of army training group going on. They all soon get out of the water and migrate to this massive log cabin, naturally I follow. Once inside I look around I spot who I think to be Sheth. Walking closer, my thoughts are confirmed, he is sitting with his girlfriend. I start with the natural star-struck conversation; "Hey, are you Sheth," to which he responds, "Yup, thats me." Being the extremly nice person that he is, I talk with him and his girlfriend for a little bit. Suddenly, Sheth looks at his watch and says, "Oh, I'm scheduled to do battle in 15 minutes sorry man I got to go." Without delay he jumps on his motorcycle which appeard behind him and rides out of the door.
His girlfriend explains that he is going to fight Idra. She explains further that Sheth has been frightened of the match because of rumors he heard about Idra's fighting style. Many hours pass and there is no word from Sheth. His girlfriend becomes very worried and insists that we go in search of him. So her motorcycle appears behind her and I ride bitch. She apparantly knows the way and we soon arrive to Idra's house.
It is a castle. Massive, made a stone, turrets, a drawbridge, it even has a moat. It is a legit castle. So, both of us, awestruck approach the castle. The drawbridge is down so we simply walk inside.
Once inside the dimensions of the place seem impossibly different. It is one long room (probably about 100 yards long) we are greeted by Sheth's bleeding carcass impaled on a spike to the left. His girlfriend instantly begins to sob but soon the tears stop and she is filled with rage, yearning for revenge. We begin to walk down the massive hallway, noticing that both walls are lined with corpses arranged in the same way as Sheth. Blood drips down the walls and soaks into the carpet, giving the place an acrid stench. The carpet ends and there is a door.
We open the door and there he is. He sits on a massive throne, surrounded by gold coins, goblets, necklaces, rings, jewels and crowns. "I have been expecting you." We hear this voice from everywhere, it seems to make the walls tremble. Idra then, without warning, jumps from his throne at me, crossing a distance of roughly 20 yards. I dodge it at the last second, tumbling into the gold. Sheth's girlfriend is just staring at Idra, unable to move, paralyzed with fear. I pick up the sharpest crown I can find and begin brandishing it like a sword. Idra, in response, opens his mouth wide and reveals a large, sharp set of fangs, dripping with some unknown liquid. He turns to Sheth's girlfriend but I leap in the way and shove the crown at Idra's chest. It connects, leaving 5 stab-wounds which form a circle. It also succeeds in knocking Idra away from Sheth's girlfriend and knocking her out of her daze. She instantly realizes the situation and picks up various coins and jewels and begins to chuck them at Idra. Clearly agitated, Idra dashes towards her again, mouth open to an impossible size. This time I am too focused on how massive Idra's fangs are to help. The fangs tear deep holes into her neck, blood instantly erupts everywhere. In all this I notice that Idra's back is turned to me, Instantly, I seize the opportunity and drive the crown into Idra's back with all my force. Once fully inserted I turn it as far as I can. It leaves a massive hole in the center of Idra's chest and he collapses along with Sheth's girlfriend, who has become deflated. Many gases and vapors escape through the hole and Idra slowly begins to fade, the remainder of his body turns to black to like smoldering newspaper. With his last breath he manages to whisper. "H-H-How could... could I looooose... and to a n-n-noob like youuuuu." He then disappears leaving behind only a puddle of blood.
I breathe a sigh of relief then realize the raisin that is lying just 4 feet from where I stand. I bend over and take her in my arms but there is no breath, there is no pulse, the life was literally sucked out of her. At least she got her revenge. Turning my back to all of it I walk outside of the throne room and down the long hallway. I stopped only once. I laid my hand my Sheth's foot. "You were a noble warrior, I have avenged you but in the process have sacrificed your beloved and for this I ask your forgiveness." I shed a tear and it drops to the floor and mixes in with the puddle of Sheth's blood that has already formed there. I then leave and step outside into the glorious daylight.
So... I predict a 3-0 Idra victory followed by a 3-0 GrundlePinch victory. Dreams don't lie.
On May 02 2011 04:31 JoshSuth wrote: Can't wait to cast this Clash of the North American Zerg Gods. =D
Sheth lost in ro1 of the ipl though, besides this ladder is his main achievement, time will tell if he is here to stay, or if hes just at the center of attention. In the NASL he has done superbly, but will this last?
ggBet.net odds are up for the Sheth v Idra Match!! Get on it. Idra goes in a huge favorite for this match. Fresh off his convincing win in IGN: Pro League idra is going to be hard to beat. Long odds for Sheth means you can make a killing. Remember there are premium stream passes up for grabs now. So bet wisely.
Sheth fighting, just because he's such a GD good person! Then again, while I believe Idra does get upset, he largely exaggerates his BM because it's getting him an incredible fanbase. :-D
On May 03 2011 01:35 Pokebunny wrote: I dunno why many people say Sheth is up and coming, he's been around the top since beta.
Should be an awesome match! I like both players, but SHETH FIGHTING
I think it's because he faded away a bit a few months back. That and well people only really know the really big names that are surrounded by drama ;(. Sheth's only drama is he's too nice!@
Josh why the fuck are you casting high level games! I find that you're better than most of the popular casters out there and with some more practice I think you will be very good! Keep up the good work!
I'm sorry, but this caster is really annoying. Yeah he's covering a lot, but he has no emotion. Idra gets two huge fungals and then Sheth burrows when Idra has no detection and he's just like
"Two pretty nice fungals it seems, Idra has a good amount of units so he's just going to wait...yup.."
On May 03 2011 03:40 Fruscainte wrote: I'm sorry, but this caster is really annoying. Yeah he's covering a lot, but he has no emotion. Idra gets two huge fungals and then Sheth burrows when Idra has no detection and he's just like
"Two pretty nice fungals it seems, Idra has a good amount of units so he's just going to wait...yup.."
You know Sheth is doing his own live commentary on his stream, right? -_-
Sheth may be the most mannered person on planet Earth. Just listening to his live commentary while he's playing and after... He is so calm and praising of Idra.
On May 03 2011 03:40 Fruscainte wrote: I'm sorry, but this caster is really annoying. Yeah he's covering a lot, but he has no emotion. Idra gets two huge fungals and then Sheth burrows when Idra has no detection and he's just like
"Two pretty nice fungals it seems, Idra has a good amount of units so he's just going to wait...yup.."
On May 03 2011 03:40 Fruscainte wrote: I'm sorry, but this caster is really annoying. Yeah he's covering a lot, but he has no emotion. Idra gets two huge fungals and then Sheth burrows when Idra has no detection and he's just like
"Two pretty nice fungals it seems, Idra has a good amount of units so he's just going to wait...yup.."
You know Sheth is doing his own live commentary on his stream, right? -_-
I'd rather see what both players are doing during a showmatch, not watch one player get steamrolled.
sheth is great at other match ups because of his decision making and unit comp. but he's never been mechanically strong, you can see that his energy will be 30+ after a like the 4/5 round of injects. but in zvz you need to better at multi tasking, and that's not his strong point
idra just seems a little better in all the little things, his macro slightly better, he micros EVERY zergling in early game, always pulls back hurt lings. all this seems to just allow idra to pull ahead in supply here and there until it's about midgame and he's 10-15 supply up before the big fight even happens.
idra's up 2-0. in game 2 sheth took the gold as his 3rd, both went double evo chamber for upgrades. idra had a nice ling counter attack on sheth's 2nd, killed a few drones, forced sheth to counterattack his own 3rd, where idra had his roaches all set up. the killing blow was idra's 3-4 infestors, which were way earlier than sheth's. fungal + a few more roaches wiped sheth's army pretty fast
On May 03 2011 03:40 Fruscainte wrote: I'm sorry, but this caster is really annoying. Yeah he's covering a lot, but he has no emotion. Idra gets two huge fungals and then Sheth burrows when Idra has no detection and he's just like
"Two pretty nice fungals it seems, Idra has a good amount of units so he's just going to wait...yup.."
You know Sheth is doing his own live commentary on his stream, right? -_-
I'd rather see what both players are doing during a showmatch, not watch one player get steamrolled.
Hey hey. Its no steamrolling going on.... in a mirror matchup everything counts and Idra is like 17-1 in ZvZ (pre this series). Sheth goes a bit different tech then Idra (or rather slower tech) and the the small advantages Idra gets he is really good to utilise
On May 03 2011 03:40 Fruscainte wrote: I'm sorry, but this caster is really annoying. Yeah he's covering a lot, but he has no emotion. Idra gets two huge fungals and then Sheth burrows when Idra has no detection and he's just like
"Two pretty nice fungals it seems, Idra has a good amount of units so he's just going to wait...yup.."
You know Sheth is doing his own live commentary on his stream, right? -_-
I'd rather see what both players are doing during a showmatch, not watch one player get steamrolled.
Then you should pay more attention to the first post and you'd know that there is another stream showing the game from obs view: http://www.justin.tv/joshsuth#/w/1154251216
On May 03 2011 03:40 Fruscainte wrote: I'm sorry, but this caster is really annoying. Yeah he's covering a lot, but he has no emotion. Idra gets two huge fungals and then Sheth burrows when Idra has no detection and he's just like
"Two pretty nice fungals it seems, Idra has a good amount of units so he's just going to wait...yup.."
You know Sheth is doing his own live commentary on his stream, right? -_-
I'd rather see what both players are doing during a showmatch, not watch one player get steamrolled.
Then you should pay more attention to the first post and you'd know that there is another stream showing the game from obs view: http://www.justin.tv/joshsuth#/w/1154251216
Love how Sheth talks about his games, but I would've preferred if he didn't and just focused on trying to win. I don't think he could've beaten idra, but maybe they would've been better games. Trying to talk while playing certainly takes away a little bit from your game, and against idra, you need every edge. Cool idea though sheth.
He could've instead talked about them afterwards, maybe stream a review of the replays with thoughts.
On May 03 2011 03:52 vmendi wrote: I think the problem in those games was that Sheth accumulated too much games at start, in the banelings phase... what do u think?
I feel like IdrA's micro is what gave him an advantage. Sheth had some moments where his lings died to banelings when he probably could have micro'd out of those situations a bit better.
But honestly, Sheth might have made a mistake trying to commentate while playing. I guess you need all your wits focused on the game to win at such a high level.
On May 03 2011 03:54 shell wrote: I caught the last two games and like u said you have to improve your ZvZ because idra's ZvZ is the best outside of Korea!
Both you guys are really owning it up!
GG yo
Watch the first game on Josh's stream right now. Amazing micro battles in the first 10 minutes.
Idra just has all the little details on his side. A little better macro, a little bit better micro and just a little bit better timing on his expansion, upgrades and so on.
On May 03 2011 03:57 OrchidThief wrote: Idra just has all the little details on his side. A little better macro, a little bit better micro and just a little bit better timing on his expansion, upgrades and so on.
He really is the walking embodiment of "a lot of small advantages are as good as one huge one."
Of the programers in SC2, I think you've got the best attitude! Or at least how I'd like to be if I was any good. haha. :D
Great ZvZ games and you got some good replays to check out and be more awesome than you are now! I also enjoyed you on Day[9]'s Friend-day Wednesday a few weeks ago.
On May 03 2011 03:52 vmendi wrote: I think the problem in those games was that Sheth accumulated too much games at start, in the banelings phase... what do u think?
I feel like IdrA's micro is what gave him an advantage. Sheth had some moments where his lings died to banelings when he probably could have micro'd out of those situations a bit better.
I'd say the real killer, in all three games, is that Idra's builds/timings are probably the most refined and efficient of any zerg in the world. This let him not only get more units out, but his tech was quicker as well (Roaches and infestors were fatally quicker in games 2 and 3). All the micro in the world most likely wasn't going to save Sheth those games. I think he'd have had to do some funky push/timing or cheesy pressure to really get an advantage on Idra. Also, if Idra's allowed to get a 3rd up without effort, it's basically GG already in ZvZ..
On May 03 2011 03:51 asdfTT123 wrote: Idra = JvZ of SC2? :O
Nestea has better ZvZ, but in the non-Korean scene the only zerg that's close to Idra's ZvZ is probably Dimaga.
would love too see a Nestea vs Idra zvz. Then you could say something like that. Otherwise who knows both of their zvz's are insanely good right now ^_^.
Although from a non zerg players PoV i have no idea why anyone wins or loses in ZvZ. It's very confusing at sometimes it even seems random (although i know it's not).
Also, every time it comes down to a baneling vs zergling micro war i find myself screaming at my monitor to "look out Sheth!"
On May 03 2011 03:51 asdfTT123 wrote: Idra = JvZ of SC2? :O
Nestea has better ZvZ, but in the non-Korean scene the only zerg that's close to Idra's ZvZ is probably Dimaga.
would love too see a Nestea vs Idra zvz. Then you could say something like that. Otherwise who knows both of their zvz's are insanely good right now ^_^.
They've played each other on IdrA's stream before, when he was on the Korean ladder. They both took games off of each other, so my guess is it's mostly a coin flip of build orders.
On May 03 2011 03:51 asdfTT123 wrote: Idra = JvZ of SC2? :O
Nestea has better ZvZ, but in the non-Korean scene the only zerg that's close to Idra's ZvZ is probably Dimaga.
would love too see a Nestea vs Idra zvz. Then you could say something like that. Otherwise who knows both of their zvz's are insanely good right now ^_^.
They've played each other on IdrA's stream before, when he was on the Korean ladder. They both took games off of each other, so my guess is it's mostly a coin flip of build orders.
In my opinion, in ZvZ, Idra ~= Nestea ~= Dimaga. Not sure where Sen stands in this because ZvZ was a MU that gave him a lot of trouble back in Beta and was his worst by far. However, he 2-0'd Zenio recently and seems to be doing a lot better. Still, Idra's ZvZ has always been his strongest MU or tied for strongest MU. His understanding of the MU is deep and his play refined. It's the one MU that he does not seem to lose to random chance in, at least in tournaments.
From watching his stream a lot, idra's biggest weakness in ZvZ is the micro slip.
One small instance of 10 zerglings hitting a baneling can lose you a game.
Considering IdrA plays around 160~ APM, it's not surprising he would sometimes have a accident and lose because of this, ZvZ is arguably the most micro-intensive matchup until roaches are out, even moreso than 4gate vs 4gate protoss. Zealot/stalker are slower and beefier units in lower numbers.
EVERY zerg fails a few ZvZ games because of this though, even nestea.
Hope you guys enjoyed the cast from my end. Working on the 1080p VODs now and they'll be up on http://www.youtube.com/AskJoshy in a couple of hours. =)
Since it was lost in the flood of post game comments, I'll ask again if there is more information on Idra's roach speedling timing push in ZvZ? A thread? I couldn't find anything. ;
On May 03 2011 03:51 asdfTT123 wrote: Idra = JvZ of SC2? :O
Nestea has better ZvZ, but in the non-Korean scene the only zerg that's close to Idra's ZvZ is probably Dimaga.
would love too see a Nestea vs Idra zvz. Then you could say something like that. Otherwise who knows both of their zvz's are insanely good right now ^_^.
They've played each other on IdrA's stream before, when he was on the Korean ladder. They both took games off of each other, so my guess is it's mostly a coin flip of build orders.
Oh yeah I know that I was more meaning a tournament/showmatch bo5 or something without latency. I mean I know that won't happen unless nestea goes too a foreign tournament and meets up with idra or vice versa. But I imagine their both pretty evenly matched against one another ^_^.
I think idra realized just when the game starts, that he get's 300$ per hour of coaching, and only 200$ if he wins showmatch, so he went in bossmode and did it in less than an hour, just so it would be cost effecitve!
On May 03 2011 04:09 Azarkon wrote: (...) Still, Idra's ZvZ has always been his strongest MU or tied for strongest MU. His understanding of the MU is deep and his play refined. It's the one MU that he does not seem to lose to random chance in, at least in tournaments.
"always" is not entirely true as I seem to recall he lost out on a GSL because he had no zerg practice partners in Korea. Just sayin'...
On May 03 2011 04:43 MilesTeg wrote: Since it was lost in the flood of post game comments, I'll ask again if there is more information on Idra's roach speedling timing push in ZvZ? A thread? I couldn't find anything. ;
not a timing, it all depends on how many drones you slip in while you do baneling ling micro wars.
Does Idra still play on the korean server and have practice partners over there? I feel if he only plays on the NA server his skill won't increase, only stay the same. He needs to play against people of the same caliber. He's on a whole different level from everyone in NA.
On May 03 2011 04:09 Azarkon wrote: (...) Still, Idra's ZvZ has always been his strongest MU or tied for strongest MU. His understanding of the MU is deep and his play refined. It's the one MU that he does not seem to lose to random chance in, at least in tournaments.
"always" is not entirely true as I seem to recall he lost out on a GSL because he had no zerg practice partners in Korea. Just sayin'...
I seem to recall that being in November... admittedly the first post you quoted was a bit untrue, it hasn't always been his best, but it's been his best for about 5 months.
On May 03 2011 07:57 Art_of_Kill wrote: why should anyone want to watch zvz`?
Because of the high-paced games where there's action going on from minute one, instead of the 'lets sit inside my base while I wait for 200/200' kind of games.
On May 03 2011 07:57 Art_of_Kill wrote: why should anyone want to watch zvz`?
It takes very little time for the most part, and unfortunately I have to play them lol.
Hoping for GGs if I can find the time to watch, and being that both players are pretty good, I'm sure they will be.
add in the fact these are pretty clearly the two best Zergs outside of KR.. and IdrA may actually be the best zerg in the world. Nestea could be an argument but I really feel lately that IdrA's play has been taken to another level.
On May 03 2011 07:57 Art_of_Kill wrote: why should anyone want to watch zvz`?
It takes very little time for the most part, and unfortunately I have to play them lol.
Hoping for GGs if I can find the time to watch, and being that both players are pretty good, I'm sure they will be.
add in the fact these are pretty clearly the two best Zergs outside of KR.. and IdrA may actually be the best zerg in the world. Nestea could be an argument but I really feel lately that IdrA's play has been taken to another level.
I'd say IdrA and Sen are the top two Zerg foreigners, with Morrow and Dimaga being right after... and then maybe Sheth (but then there's also MoMan, Slush, Ret, Mondragon, and a bunch of others). I love Sheth and he has a high ranking, but he performs quite poorly in tournaments against big-name players. NesTea's still better than all of them, I think. Possibly Losira too. FruitDealer, maybe not.
IdrA is playing so well atm, hope his form continues, would love to see him as the undisputed best foreigner <3 (until Grubby gets to that level at least :D)
On May 03 2011 07:57 Art_of_Kill wrote: why should anyone want to watch zvz`?
Because some of us understand this matchup.
I dont understand it (rarely playing (especially 1v1), gold league, random player here), know nothing of the timings and such, but this is the most intense MU from all 6. So much micro, tiny little things, and yet not boring as PvP. ZvZ is awesome. TvT is just like any other non-mirror matchup, terran is so diverse by itself.
i think it was easier for idra because sheth was streaming while playing the showmatch and commentating the whole time... i think because of talking the whole time, he wasn't focusing on the game 100%
On May 03 2011 17:57 Igaryu85 wrote: I was suprised Idra won this so decisively, I wonder if his ZvT and ZvP have improved...really didnt like how he was playing against MC and Cruncher.
Yes, go watch the IPL and all his NASL games. Since TSL and Dreamhack, he has been destroying everyone left and right. The initial indicators were already present in his games during MLG and DH, but he's only been getting better since. And so much more diverse!
I've read somewhere that Idra has greatly improved his ZvZ and it shows. Sheth is an extremely good player but Idra was just a bit too much.. very exiting games though and Sheth did really well.
That said, I think ZvZ is not Sheths best matchup. I'd really love to see him play some more showmatches vs Terran and Protoss pro players. It would also give him some extra training/experience versus this class of players... eagerly awaiting!
So I just saw these games, and as a master's Zerg, they confused the shit out of me.
In game 1 Idra takes guys off gas after speed, why not leave them in for a quicker baneling nest if you're gonna 1 base?
Throughout game 1, Idra takes out, and puts guys back in gas literally 4-5 times. I don't really understand what the cues were for him to do that. How do you know when you do/don't need gas during those baneling wars?
game 2, Idra went 15 hatch, then 17 extractor into 16 pool. That's pretty late :o I'm assuming that he was assuming that Sheth was gonna hatch first as well.
When both players hatch first, Is it better to just play defensive with banelings? Idra seemed to take a lead in game 2 doing this.
What was the reasoning for going for a roach timing in game 3 instead of ling/bane? Would that have worked just as well on metalopolis? Why go ling/bane there and roaches on scrap?
This would be pretty educational if I understood why Idra was winning!
Totally agree with you tachion. Pro level ZvZ looks so different then even very high level ZvZ. I feel like the very top players like idra seem to actually be adjusting to things properly. Even at pretty high masters level I know I have no idea what I am doing, and most of my opponents seem to adjust very little based on scouting as well.
In the first two games at least (that's where I am up to) I have no real idea how Idra pulled such huge leads. After every battle, or just in moments of respite, Idra seemed to have another small supply advantage. Really odd, but really amazing to watch.
On May 03 2011 20:27 r3SpaVVn wrote: i think it was easier for idra because sheth was streaming while playing the showmatch and commentating the whole time... i think because of talking the whole time, he wasn't focusing on the game 100%
That's a very convenient excuse... Seemed to me whenever anything intensive was happening Sheth didn't talk anyway. Only inbetween.
Joshy you need to check drone counts earlier while casting ZvZ.
So annoying watching a vod when you can't get the information you wan/that is important. Idra isn't winning because of the ling/bling exchanges, he's winning because he is uing larva much more efficiently for workers, but I am wondering how much more efficiently.
On May 03 2011 21:44 Tachion wrote: So I just saw these games, and as a master's Zerg, they confused the shit out of me.
In game 1 Idra takes guys off gas after speed, why not leave them in for a quicker baneling nest if you're gonna 1 base?
Throughout game 1, Idra takes out, and puts guys back in gas literally 4-5 times. I don't really understand what the cues were for him to do that. How do you know when you do/don't need gas during those baneling wars?
game 2, Idra went 15 hatch, then 17 extractor into 16 pool. That's pretty late :o I'm assuming that he was assuming that Sheth was gonna hatch first as well.
When both players hatch first, Is it better to just play defensive with banelings? Idra seemed to take a lead in game 2 doing this.
What was the reasoning for going for a roach timing in game 3 instead of ling/bane? Would that have worked just as well on metalopolis? Why go ling/bane there and roaches on scrap?
This would be pretty educational if I understood why Idra was winning!
I don't know too much about idra taking drones in and out of gas, but I'm guessing it has to do with keeping a certain amount of gas at all times in case of building banelings.
idra has said that if you get speedlings, and your opponent has only speedlings, you get a baneling nest to punish him. Once the opponent gets banelings of his own, you start playing defensive with banelings, because idra states that "defensive baneling always beats offensive baneling."
On scrap, I'm guessing that it has to do more with scouting than anything else. It didn't seem like idra got really good scouting on metalopolis, so he wouldn't know if there was a mass speedling baneling all in. On scrap; however, it's much easier to scout with an overlord and see what's going on.
You only need like 2-3 banelings with proper micro (which Idra has). Baneling/Speedling leads up into Roach/Infestor so the less time you spend in that phase the faster you can get to the macro game which Idra wants more I assume.
It seems Baneling opener is the new standard is ZvZ?, so when Idra got a 17gas/16 pool he most likely wanted to play defensive, and getting a Baneling nest reduces your total ling count so he probably thought his drones could take the initial lings if anything. It paid off though, as Idra's economy was ridiculous compared to Sheth's.
On May 03 2011 07:57 Art_of_Kill wrote: why should anyone want to watch zvz`?
Because of the high-paced games where there's action going on from minute one, instead of the 'lets sit inside my base while I wait for 200/200' kind of games.
Cuz it's the absolute best mu, right now. I'm sick of GSL's TvT. And the general PvP.
On May 03 2011 17:57 Igaryu85 wrote: I was suprised Idra won this so decisively, I wonder if his ZvT and ZvP have improved...really didnt like how he was playing against MC and Cruncher.
Wow, really? I thought he played beautifully against MC even though he lost. And the game he won against Cruncher was just phenomenal and total proof that Idra's a top, top, top(that's three tops) zerg.
On May 03 2011 07:57 Art_of_Kill wrote: why should anyone want to watch zvz`?
Because of the high-paced games where there's action going on from minute one, instead of the 'lets sit inside my base while I wait for 200/200' kind of games.
Cuz it's the absolute best mu, right now. I'm sick of GSL's TvT. And the general PvP.
I don't know how people can pick mirror matches over non-mirror matches ever lol. ZvZ is my least favorite mirror to watch on top of that.
On May 03 2011 20:27 r3SpaVVn wrote: i think it was easier for idra because sheth was streaming while playing the showmatch and commentating the whole time... i think because of talking the whole time, he wasn't focusing on the game 100%
That's a very convenient excuse... Seemed to me whenever anything intensive was happening Sheth didn't talk anyway. Only inbetween.
that wasn't meant as the ONLY excuse why idra won, of course i think idra won convincingly, mostly because he seemed to have the better timed bo's and therefore almost always an advantage in supply + i think idra also has a very good understanding of the game in terms of tactics and general game sense. but commentating could also be a minor factor. i think that should be an incentive for sheth to train even more and harder so he can pull out a win against a top tier zerg (probably gonna get some haters for that term )
you can flame me should sheth already have won against such a good zerg player, because i don't know much about him as i didn't follow his career for too long yet.
Idra has been on a tear recently, I haven't seen him lose a series in a couple weeks actually. He seemed to be in the best form I had ever seen him in at the IPL. Super solid play all the time now, what a pro.
I notice especially his improvements in PvZ. He's always been great at ZvZ and is the master of Muta/Ling/Bane in TvZ, but it's been cool to see him look so dominant against Protoss because everybody has been having trouble against Toss lately. I try to learn from him every game I see.
PvP is such a horrible matchup, so random and so narrow. Small misstakes creates huge effects. Both ZvZ and TvT seems to allow for more diversity. I would like to think a mirror matchup should be about scouting and decision making first, micro and tactics second. In PvP it's more like build order first, micro and tactics second...
EPT
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I'll try to catch the vods.
EU folks will be happy![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8uSgr.jpg)
go idra sorry sheth
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