On April 25 2011 09:11 nepitolko wrote: I still dont understand your point regarding changing the clumping AI and saying that it is a problem for e-sport?
In SC1 you were fighting with the retarded pathing....
Now the issue is solved and you need to fight with the clumping AI to avoid splash dmg and to get the most out of your units.
Retarded pathing eh ? have you even played bw before or are you just spitting out ideas that from some one else as for your info sc bw has very good ai pathing .
I think an issue is that there is no cool micro, or that it isn't hard to do. When DJWheat exclaims as stimmed marauders shootdown a mob of zealots while running backwards "Amazing micro!" I just have to facepalm. Between concussive shells and stim, it isn' hard at all. Collossus micro? What collossus micro?
The only times I see cool micro are sometimes blink stalkers/bling drops, (sometimes) forcefields, and marine splits. Even marine splits vs. banelings are nowhere near as cool as rine vs. lurker micro.
On April 25 2011 09:11 nepitolko wrote: I still dont understand your point regarding changing the clumping AI and saying that it is a problem for e-sport?
In SC1 you were fighting with the retarded pathing....
Now the issue is solved and you need to fight with the clumping AI to avoid splash dmg and to get the most out of your units.
It has been said before if you read through the thread, but I will explain once again.
Units clump by nature(or rather AI), this makes aoe attacks too powerfull, hence for example Psi storm was nerfed to 80 damage, and a smaller radius. What this means is that that there is no such thing as a defenders advantage comparable as to Brood War. You could hold off an entire slew of hydras with proper storms. These storms were very strong, but due to the nature of the pathing AI it would not hit a retarded amount of units. AOE is too powerfull in SC2 yet also to weak in SC2, there is a reason why the Collosi is so powerfull. It is a ranged, fast(relativly), mobile(Cliffwalking over units),powerfull AOE damage unit. 112 psi storm large radius would be too powerfull against the clumping AI, yet such a mechanic is vital to the defenders advantage. The same thing is with lurkers and spider mines if they would be introduced into SC2. In ScBW, these powerfull storms, lurker placement and spider mines would make or break your game, due to the nature of the SC2 AI , these things would be blatantly overpowerd. Yet it is these mechanics which make the defenders advantage and micro so neccesary.
Not to mention that you have visuals too, in SC2 you see a ball vs a ball, in BW you had streams of units basically(If you have ever seen a PvT where a horde of zealots and dragoons charged into a tank line, you know what I am talking about) While in SC2 it is ball engages ball.
For Protoss there is no reason NOT to clump your units, in fact it is encouraged to do so because it makes your units much more powerfull.
Clumping AI also causes melee units to be much less powerfull then their BW counterparts. There is little to no surface area, this makes ranged units much more powerfull. There is auto-surround to supposedly make up for it, but it does not. Zerglings are basically cannon fodder and even for a mineral dump, relativly bad due to this effect.
Now really, would you want to see Ball A engage ball B or to see units streaming in from different directions?Because the former is happening right now. The fact that they are in a ball coupled with the powerfull aoe makes battles last incredibly short, which is detrimental to specatorship.
What I don't understand is why there isn't more unit splitting by players with notoriously high APM(WC3 and BW pros most notably). They know that the AI's tendency to clump significantly empowers AoE, and with it being such an advantage for T and P especially(fungal probably isn't used enough to justify a lot of splitting v Z), why wouldn't they try to space out at least some of their units?
Pros usually do space out their units when taking a stationary position. Terrans usually spread out their bio into a decent conclave during a TvP when anticipating the Protoss push. Likewise, Protosses sometimes do the same for their deathballs. Terrans also preemptively spread their tanks and marines when holding a position during a TvZ in anticipation of Banes and Infestors.
However, units clump up again when the army moves, and pros usually spend a lot of their APM continuously moving and repositioning their army. Since the easiest way to move armies around in SC2 is via 1 control group, a lot of this repositioning comes in the form of balls.
I have a feeling that a lot of the clumping is due to each unit having a sort of "magnetic" attraction to each other when moving around in a shared control group. I've always wondered how the pathing AI would act if they removed this magnetic clumping attraction.
At the same time, a lot of players continue to have their entire army(spell casters included) on one hotkey. Why not just space out your main force between 3 or 4 hotkeys? It both reduces the threat of AoE's and increases the threat melee units pose.
Probably because one control group is extremely easy to manage yet still very efficient for most situations when there are no AoE units on the field. If two armies 1a against each other, the AI automatically forms a decent conclave in many situations.
For some players, the DPS and ease-of-control rewards of one control group outweigh the risk of succumbing to AoE spells and units. In the long term, players with these habits need to adapt to better army control or face being punished for these habits by other players with better control, but right now the habit is acceptable when the majority of players are afflicted with it.
I can't believe this is still ragging on as more and more builds start to flesh out and get refined. I mean, yes, it is underperforming in some areas but really are we at the point where basic mechanics are close to the ceiling?
Also brood war was designed in a time where pathing is terrible. And a lot of the micro we see in brood war stems from this problematic AI. Imagine dragoons with smooth pathing for example. This is a fundamental flaw for a game designer, but a source of skill differential between elites in competition. It is extremely hard to reconcile the two.
On a related point, I fail to see how marine split against baneling so much less enjoyable than dragoons dodging a spider mine.
On a related point, I fail to see how marine split against baneling so much less enjoyable than dragoons dodging a spider mine.
Well, marines need at least some micro vs banes while zerg in all directions just a-move race.
In addition, spider mines cannot be controlled or microed. It takes one action to place the mine, and the rest relies on the AI and how the opponent deals with it with micro, which IMO is more one-sided than marines vs Banes. At least Banelings need to be microed to ensure connection on marines instead of being wasted on tanks or other tanking units.
However, Spider Mines do have just the right combination of visual, audio, and gameplay elements to make themselves quite exciting. Visually and audibly, a Spider Mine popping out of the ground leaves just enough of a split second for the opponent to react with "oh shit, fuk, fuck, fuck, micro, micro, micro" to micro their units properly or quickly face possible decimation if a mistake is made. Also, Spider Mines are quite random, like Reaver Scarabs, which creates a sense of anticipation of whether the mine does terrible, terrible damage or absolutely nothing at all. They are devastating, but their power is balanced by random AI and the small amount of time that it allows for the opponent to react.
On April 26 2011 02:24 sheaRZerg wrote: Flash, Jaedong and Bisu are whats missing.
Marauders and Colossus make for boring games. Has nothing to do with skill level. Watching G5 microing a shuttle+reaver is more entertaining than watching Bisu microing a Colossus.
The issue is to make game fun while having these new features like unlimited control group, better unit AI etc. That should be the main aim for improving this game.
Right now, I have this hyphothesis: The fact that SC2 feels boring to people (sometimes) is, for the most part, related to the Protoss race. Everyone knows what's wrong about PvP, TvP is the best out of P related matchups in terms of spectatating, and PvZ is an uphill battle , though winnable, for Zerg if Protoss has a clue and prepared for anything. (so say, Spanishiwa style doesn't catch him off guard).
TvT is mad fun to watch. TvZ, same, probably the best in SC2. ZvZ is hectic and chaotic in early game, and fun to watch with baneling explosions and speedlings, and can be open to a macro game. ZvT is great to watch too, so the issue is just.....Protoss. I think it has too much firepower with not enough micro requirement. If you had to siege the Colossus before they could fire, that could have changed the things a little bit imo.
There was an interview with Dustin Browder which he talked about some of his ideas being turned due to the e-sports aspect of the game, which he didn't understand. I'm glad there were people who said no to some of his ideas. If it was left to him we very well might have had Thors taking two medivacs on their back and moving around like Reapers.
Well I've been following this thread for some time, and decided to get my opinion heard too!
All the time until today, and even a little bit now, I think that BW is more exciting, and there is certanly something that Sc2 is missing. But before I go on any further, I just wanna say that many Sc2 games are very exciting, for example the last GSL game between Squirtle and CoCa. It had some micro, and it was really exciting watching the to players fight.
I also watched some BW games today. I know some people have stated the same here, and I agree with them that BW is more fun to watch because of the long exciting fights. And thats exactly what happened in the game between Squirtle and CoCa. The fights might not be as long as a BW fight, but to be Sc2, I'd say it's a pretty long fight and there were several fights (which ofcourse is a good thing).
So I think that Sc2 is a great game, and some of the matches are really fun to watch, but the BIG things that need improvements in my opinion, that will maybe fill the space of what's "missing" are: In some way, making the fights last longer, and therefore demand more micro, and, having the "defenders advantage" that other people have stated here. Really, if Blizzard would follow these advices I think that this game would be so great, even greater than it already is.
Oh and btw, I'm not on any games "side", I like BW and Sc2 just as much, just that I think that BW matches are a slight more exciting. Well that's just my opinons here!
On April 26 2011 03:11 Bleak wrote: The issue is to make game fun while having these new features like unlimited control group, better unit AI etc. That should be the main aim for improving this game.
Right now, I have this hyphothesis: The fact that SC2 feels boring to people (sometimes) is, for the most part, related to the Protoss race. Everyone knows what's wrong about PvP, TvP is the best out of P related matchups in terms of spectatating, and PvZ is an uphill battle , though winnable, for Zerg if Protoss has a clue and prepared for anything. (so say, Spanishiwa style doesn't catch him off guard).
TvT is mad fun to watch. TvZ, same, probably the best in SC2. ZvZ is hectic and chaotic in early game, and fun to watch with baneling explosions and speedlings, and can be open to a macro game. ZvT is great to watch too, so the issue is just.....Protoss. I think it has too much firepower with not enough micro requirement. If you had to siege the Colossus before they could fire, that could have changed the things a little bit imo.
There was an interview with Dustin Browder which he talked about some of his ideas being turned due to the e-sports aspect of the game, which he didn't understand. I'm glad there were people who said no to some of his ideas. If it was left to him we very well might have had Thors taking two medivacs on their back and moving around like Reapers.
That's pretty true. ZvT so far has been as entertaining (or more) than Broodwar ZvT. Burrowed banelings are as broken as hold lurkers if used correctly so I don't think Zerg lacks map control as what the OP said. The OP however was right about the lack of map control from Terran (mines removed). TvP is a borefest with maxed bio+viking vs a clumped up deathball and a battle is decided on who emp's first or feed back / storms first.
Unlimited unit selection is kind of ruining the game that does not reward multi taskers.
I believe SC2 is missing an innovator who will bring something COMPLETELY new to the game. Completely new style. Alas, game is too young and it will most likely happen after patches come out
On April 26 2011 03:23 LesPhoques wrote: I believe SC2 is missing an innovator who will bring something COMPLETELY new to the game. Completely new style. Alas, game is too young and it will most likely happen after patches come out
On April 25 2011 09:11 nepitolko wrote: I still dont understand your point regarding changing the clumping AI and saying that it is a problem for e-sport?
In SC1 you were fighting with the retarded pathing....
Now the issue is solved and you need to fight with the clumping AI to avoid splash dmg and to get the most out of your units.
Retarded pathing eh ? have you even played bw before or are you just spitting out ideas that from some one else as for your info sc bw has very good ai pathing .
This is obviously a exaggerated video but the pathing is in no way good in BW.
Starcraft 2 has a better User Interface, do we really want players to win games just because they can click more and faster? I mean come on, the game is about strategy, tactics, positioning, timing, people can focus more on these things now, I think that makes this game a better game, Starcraft Brood War was a fanasticly awesome game don't get me wrong, but the world really needed Starcraft 2. The game is just as complex if not more so than Brood War. You guys can go have fun to selecting 12 units at a time, have fun with that, especially if your zerg. So I don't see why there's this hating on Starcraft 2 so much.
I dunno, I've always thought that sc2 missed some of the more interesting units from bw. Like lurker, science vessel, and reaver/dark archon. Sc2 units right now seem sort of like copies of each other, especially the casters.
if you want a purely strategic game then go for turn based, the fact that you need crazy good hand coordination like a pianist (or clicking really fast, how you would describe it) is something most of us love about the game
also to add to the topic: whats up with the new "macro mechanics" ? didnt they add them to give us something to do even with automine ? did they ever talk about why those let the production capabilities explode at times? i think its bad for the game and one of the reasons sc2 doesnt have such a beatiful flow like bw
It seems pages later this thread is still off topic from what the OP wanted discussed.
The OP is not saying BW>SC2 because of harder mechanics or that SC2 needs ancient mechanics to be more interesting.
The OP is saying that SC2 simply needs more things requiring more player-unit interaction. So if the mechanics are not going to change (which they are not) then what can be done to the game to increase this player-unit interaction?
A: Units that serve more dramatic roles, more complex, etc. that will force players to interact more.
On April 26 2011 03:11 Bleak wrote: The issue is to make game fun while having these new features like unlimited control group, better unit AI etc. That should be the main aim for improving this game.
Right now, I have this hyphothesis: The fact that SC2 feels boring to people (sometimes) is, for the most part, related to the Protoss race. Everyone knows what's wrong about PvP, TvP is the best out of P related matchups in terms of spectatating, and PvZ is an uphill battle , though winnable, for Zerg if Protoss has a clue and prepared for anything. (so say, Spanishiwa style doesn't catch him off guard).
TvT is mad fun to watch. TvZ, same, probably the best in SC2. ZvZ is hectic and chaotic in early game, and fun to watch with baneling explosions and speedlings, and can be open to a macro game. ZvT is great to watch too, so the issue is just.....Protoss. I think it has too much firepower with not enough micro requirement. If you had to siege the Colossus before they could fire, that could have changed the things a little bit imo.
There was an interview with Dustin Browder which he talked about some of his ideas being turned due to the e-sports aspect of the game, which he didn't understand. I'm glad there were people who said no to some of his ideas. If it was left to him we very well might have had Thors taking two medivacs on their back and moving around like Reapers.
Except that protoss has units which require micro (try playing toss without good FF reflexes) - like sentries, blink stalkers, immortals, phoenixes, both types of templar, carriers. You're really just complaining about the colossus, but the fact is that other races have a-move type styles too.
On April 26 2011 06:31 Footler wrote: It seems pages later this thread is still off topic from what the OP wanted discussed.
The OP is not saying BW>SC2 because of harder mechanics or that SC2 needs ancient mechanics to be more interesting.
The OP is saying that SC2 simply needs more things requiring more player-unit interaction. So if the mechanics are not going to change (which they are not) then what can be done to the game to increase this player-unit interaction?
A: Units that serve more dramatic roles, more complex, etc. that will force players to interact more.
Personally, I think the phoenix is a good example of a unit which forces interaction. Also, perhaps the goal was for SC2 to have less player/unit interaction and for the amount of this interaction to ramp up with the release of expansions.
EPT
