First, I want to thank you for making the 2011 Pro Circuit competition in Dallas one of our largest and most successful to date. It was a stellar kickoff of our 8th season as more than 1,200 players competed throughout the weekend. The energy and excitement on the ground at the event was truly amazing, and traffic to the web site was record-breaking, with visitors from over 150 different countries.
With so many positive aspects to the event, I wanted to personally offer my sincere apologies surrounding the disappointing online broadcast. There are simply no excuses for our technological mistakes and our inability to deliver the live streams of the competition as we promised.
Your ongoing involvement in and support of competitive gaming should be rewarded, and you deserve an uninterrupted viewing experience. I wanted to provide a bit more information about the online issues for those of you that tuned into our live broadcast. Despite numerous attempts to repair the issues throughout the weekend, we were simply unable to find a solution to the extensive problems. Our tech team was not as prepared as they should have been.
On Friday, we began experiencing site stability issues and our site crashed as more than twice as many people as expected from 128 countries tuned in. We were underprepared for the epic traffic and unable to fully recover from the crash.
On Saturday, we began to experience intermittent packet loss and ping spikes that dramatically impacted stream quality and StarCraft 2 tournament play on-site. In an attempt to solve the problem, we brought in a new router and a 2000-foot fiber optic cable run, and we completely re-architected our switching and firewall fabric to accommodate the new infrastructure.
On Sunday, we determined that our efforts had not fully succeeded, and we opted to move all streams to SQ only.
Because of the inconvenience, those that purchased MLG HQ passes can opt for either a full refund or a free HQ pass for a future Pro Circuit Competition. Refunds and pass credits will be accommodated this week.
The rebroadcast of all this weekend’s matches will be playing on MLG.tv all throughout the week. Over 150 replays are already available and we will continuously upload the rest until they are all up.
We remain fully committed to bringing you HQ and SQ streams of our future Pro Circuit competitions, and we are doing everything possible to ensure that this never happens again. In the coming days, we will be reevaluating everything and bringing in a new team comprised of the most talented tech experts. No effort will be spared and we will keep you posted regarding the revamped plans.
You deserve the best events and broadcasts possible and we are dedicated to bringing that to you.
Once again, thank you again for your patience and stay tuned for ongoing updates. We are poised for a strong season and we look forward to seeing you in Columbus on June 3.
I like that he is taking responsibility and addressing the community directly, hopefully for MLG sake and viewers sake, they fix the issues and provide smooth, quality and reliable streaming next time.
We remain fully committed to bringing you HQ and SQ streams of our future Pro Circuit competitions, and we are doing everything possible to ensure that this never happens again. In the coming days, we will be reevaluating everything and bringing in a new team comprised of the most talented tech experts.
Impressive move by the corporation. I'm glad they're listening to fans.
Well written - hopefully these problems do not impact their next event too largely in terms of viewership. I hope for them that they really do get things right for Columbus!
I really like the effort to keep everyone in the loop about what happened and what will happen. Hopefully this will help recoup some of the losses from this weekend.
The rebroadcast of all this weekend’s matches will be playing on MLG.tv all throughout the week. Over 150 replays are already available and we will continuously upload the rest until they are all up.
This is pretty good news. The weekend was pretty tragic, nice to see a statement come quickly though. They must have been ripping their hair out trying to fix it.
Pretty much the best move they could make, given that they can't go back in time and change it (and by the time the problems start happening, it's probably too late to be able to fix it).
Hard to blame Sundance too much (although ultimately he's the one responsible for making sure everything goes smoothly obviously), considering the folks in charge of that stuff probably told him "yep, we'll be ready!" working with the numbers from whoever was responsible for that.
On April 05 2011 05:03 TaK.Polymerase wrote: ... we are doing everything possible to ensure that this never happens again. In the coming days, we will be reevaluating everything and bringing in a new team comprised of the most talented tech experts. No effort will be spared...
This right here is what everyone needs to take away from that speech. Sundance is essentially going all in with the success of the stream in Columbus. If it fails here too it will look terrible.
I ask that everyone give MLG this chance to redeem itself. I believe Sundance truly wants to make this event awesome and as a community we should support it.
As frustrating as the MLG experience was for me, Sundance seems like a really cool and dedicated guy. I was quite impressed to see him taking the time to continuously reply to all kinds of posts on Twitter throughout the "crisis", and even more impressed to see that there are some serious steps being taken to prevent this from happening in the future.
Hopefully they fix all the problems by the time the Columbus tournament comes around. But there are lot of problems left to fix other than the stream. i.e. overall production.
Glad to see they are reevaluating everything tho and trying not repeat the same mistakes!
This is what he said on stream, just adding a bit more tech info.
I'm a bit sad that he doesn't mention the poor production and how the whole tournament was run, but we will see at the next event. Atleast I have a "free" HQ pass if I don't take the money.
They better have a working stream, with content at the same standard as the Halo and CoD stream.
I hope MLG will do better in the future, sundance just need to sit down with Lee and talk about what they really are doing to the SC2 part and it's community.
Tried to post this myself about an hour ago but realised I couldnt remember my login details. Good on Sunny D taking this upon himself, shows MLG will learn from this.
This might turn into a damn fine silver lining if we end up getting replays (and hopefully VODs) of all the non-broadcasted games. Or do the replays always get uploaded?
I wonder how much of the unexpected traffic was because of SC2. Really wish we could get some actual numbers somehow, I'm really interested to see exactly what kind of interest SC2 gets at a mainstream U.S. event like MLG.
On April 05 2011 05:39 Datum wrote: This might turn into a damn fine silver lining if we end up getting replays (and hopefully VODs) of all the non-broadcasted games. Or do the replays always get uploaded?
On April 05 2011 05:39 Datum wrote: This might turn into a damn fine silver lining if we end up getting replays (and hopefully VODs) of all the non-broadcasted games. Or do the replays always get uploaded?
Shit-canning the technical team behind this I am sure isn't the best of ideas. Now you will enter Columbus with a new tech team, experts in their own right with regards to networking and technology I am sure - and 0 experience in streaming to 130 countries on the format/platform that you do.
I applaud the efforts given by MLG as a whole with regards to this, staying all night to fix things etc, but lets face it, if you come into Columbus just as ill-prepared as with Dallas, you will run into the same exact problems.
Do yourself a favor Sundance and set up a show match, using the same platform and technology, and get as many hiccups out of the way as possible. Octoshape, SQ, HQ I don't care, run a live open test, pack it as tight as you can... Or not and I'm a technical noob that never soaks/stress tests my products.
Will it solve every problem? No, but you will find out ahead of time what needs to be fixed and have ample time to resolve it.
On April 05 2011 05:03 TaK.Polymerase wrote: ... we are doing everything possible to ensure that this never happens again. In the coming days, we will be reevaluating everything and bringing in a new team comprised of the most talented tech experts. No effort will be spared...
This right here is what everyone needs to take away from that speech. Sundance is essentially going all in with the success of the stream in Columbus. If it fails here too it will look terrible.
I ask that everyone give MLG this chance to redeem itself. I believe Sundance truly wants to make this event awesome and as a community we should support it.
This is probably the best thing that could happen. MLG, you're on probation imo. You've got one more shot, but after that its going to take a lot of community service for us to forgive you.
On April 05 2011 05:32 Gentleman7 wrote: What were the numbers? Did we break 100k?
There were 130k people watching the eagle stream... So I guess there were about 130k people for SC2 alone.
And there were a lot more games being broadcasted
I really feel like they're trying their best, I mean, who wouldn't? It's what they do, there's no reason to be bad at something you do, and losing money.
I hope that in the next event they will be clutch :}
Maybe i should submit my resume, i mean i know how to install windows 7 and configure my WRTG router. That should be good enough.
But its better than nothing I suppose. Seeing as they are bringing in a new team, makes me think it wasn't a primary routing issue TO the event. But the events internal crap was all kinds of wrong. I mean Dallas doesn't house some of the major ISPs their lines routing centers and data centers for nothing
On April 05 2011 05:32 Gentleman7 wrote: What were the numbers? Did we break 100k?
There were 130k people watching the eagle stream... So I guess there were about 130k people for SC2 alone.
And there were a lot more games being broadcasted
I really feel like they're trying their best, I mean, who wouldn't? It's what they do, there's no reason to be bad at something you do, and losing money.
I hope that in the next event they will be clutch :}
//tx
Don't assume the eagle stream was all MLG people, right now that stream has 141k viewers.
On April 05 2011 05:03 TaK.Polymerase wrote: ... we are doing everything possible to ensure that this never happens again. In the coming days, we will be reevaluating everything and bringing in a new team comprised of the most talented tech experts. No effort will be spared...
This right here is what everyone needs to take away from that speech. Sundance is essentially going all in with the success of the stream in Columbus. If it fails here too it will look terrible.
I ask that everyone give MLG this chance to redeem itself. I believe Sundance truly wants to make this event awesome and as a community we should support it.
I'll definitely tune in for next event but will hold off paying for the HQ stream. Hope they realize that it wasn't just the technical issues or technical team that were doing a bad job (giving a playable stream) but also the production team. Even when the stream did work, it was very lack luster. Why would anyone want to pay for a higher quality stream of what was shown this weekend, or rather the final day.
The award ceremony pretty much summarized the effort MLG put into the SC2 event; after watching that, do they really want to make it great? But with that said, I'm really looking forward to the National Championship and how they will improve
On April 05 2011 05:10 thehitman wrote: I like that he is taking responsibility and addressing the community directly, hopefully for MLG sake and viewers sake, they fix the issues and provide smooth, quality and reliable streaming next time.
QFT
I'll def watch their next SC2 even stream and see if they indeed fixed all their problems. If not I won't be watching MLG again.
On April 05 2011 05:03 TaK.Polymerase wrote: ... we are doing everything possible to ensure that this never happens again. In the coming days, we will be reevaluating everything and bringing in a new team comprised of the most talented tech experts. No effort will be spared...
This right here is what everyone needs to take away from that speech. Sundance is essentially going all in with the success of the stream in Columbus. If it fails here too it will look terrible.
I ask that everyone give MLG this chance to redeem itself. I believe Sundance truly wants to make this event awesome and as a community we should support it.
I'll definitely tune in for next event but will hold off paying for the HQ stream. Hope they realize that it wasn't just the technical issues or technical team that were doing a bad job (giving a playable stream) but also the production team. Even when the stream did work, it was very lack luster. Why would anyone want to pay for a higher quality stream of what was shown this weekend, or rather the final day.
The award ceremony pretty much summarized the effort MLG put into the SC2 event; after watching that, do they really want to make it great? But with that said, I'm really looking forward to the National Championship and how they will improve
Exactly. Even when the stream was online. 50% of the time viewers were actually just staring at the MLG logo or shots of the crowd. It was annoying to see them come back from a 45minute break and casually announce that TLO had beaten idra or that Tyler had narrowly edged out vibe.
I'm looking forward to ICCUP MLG monday that is for sure.
I hope Sundance reads this thread because as I've stressed all weekend, only two of the problems were related to Battle.net and MLG's onsite connection. There were numerous other problems that I hope they can fix.
I'll be giving them another shot, not just because of the apology but also the transparency of the process and how forthright they have been in apologizing and admitting their fuck up. Also, the MLG circuit still has an amazing roster of players, and my real frustration going into MLG Columbus was that we MISSED so many great games that were, in fact, being played. I am going to trust they get the technical part sorted out, now I hope they also follow through on the production side and rethink the manner in which they cast games (ie, have the ability to stream more than just the computers on the main stage).
Thanks Sundance, come back on SOTG and give a pep talk if you can.
The effort the community put into trying to convince blizzard to simply add chat channels was monumental. The major difference between that and adding LAN is that, in the end, it only effects tournaments. I'm sure we all would love to see LAN implemented but without a greater outcry, it will never happen. And I don't believe that outcry will ever come.
On April 05 2011 06:18 Jibba wrote: I hope Sundance reads this thread because as I've stressed all weekend, only two of the problems were related to Battle.net and MLG's onsite connection. There were numerous other problems that I hope they can fix.
Some of those problems is so easy to fix , going to be really disappointed if they don't get fixed at the next event. Example only a set of computers on the stage.
They don't need better tech people fixing shit on-site, they need better consultants setting the expected visitor numbers.
Any system built with a specific maximum load in mind will get crushed under the load of twice that. The problem lies with setting the maximum load at half the eventual, actual load. Whoever underestimated SC2 demand (surely in an effort to keep online infrastructure costs low) is at fault. They clearly tried to cut corners on the wrong... corner.
For Columbus, expect some big, big numbers so we get a proper stream, please. Dallas + 30%, somewhere around there.
On April 05 2011 05:32 Gentleman7 wrote: What were the numbers? Did we break 100k?
They won't say.
edit: and yes, as with the other feedback thread, this is only about the technical issues. Format/scheduling issues are completely separate and also something they need to look at. So that people actually have a reason to tune into Columbus when you've made sure they actually can do so.
I actually think this will result in a good thing. Shows that sc2 is the real deal and can stand by itself and mlg is professional and I expect them to not underestimate it next time. They'll hopefully do a fantastic job n show
It's good to hear he isn't ignoring the problems. There is a lot of work for them ahead. Aside from technical issues, the whole SC2 was badly organised as well. There were a lot of moments where there was nothing going on and we missed a lot of very interesting games. There were barely any interactions with the audience on the spot, barely any player interaction, an award ceremony that was noexistant. And apparantly no reason for the live audience to even be there.
I could go on and on. Let's see if they can do a complete turnaround for next event.
On April 05 2011 06:00 Systemkaos wrote: Maybe i should submit my resume, i mean i know how to install windows 7 and configure my WRTG router. That should be good enough.
But its better than nothing I suppose. Seeing as they are bringing in a new team, makes me think it wasn't a primary routing issue TO the event. But the events internal crap was all kinds of wrong. I mean Dallas doesn't house some of the major ISPs their lines routing centers and data centers for nothing
Maybe you're trolling, I can't tell (if you are disregard what follows!) but WRTG home router isn't exactly what Sundance means when he says router.
The whole technical solution for their events is a huge project. One that almost needs to be completely redone every time they do an event:
1. Functional requirements of the network (How many connections do we need to support?) 2. Traffic analysis (Traffic type/load, and how much bandwidth do those connections need?) 3. Architecture and design[WAN links are here] (Drawings, excel spreadsheets etc) 4. Equipment procurement (presumably they own firewalls/routers/switches, but by the sounds of it they might need beefier equipment or they had failed components [Replaced a router and brought in new fiber]) 5. Implement (put the pieces together and make it work) 6. Sign off on functional requirements (does it do what we said in 1? If not revisit 2 through 5)
These super high level points are pretty basic steps in any network infrastructure project (really any project at all, just replace key terms with whatever you are working with!).
I would guess that the Sundance's comment about misjudging the number of people tuning into the stream is a mistake at Step 1. Therefore everything after that is under designed: hence connectivity problems.
It is hard to predict numbers like that and the only way to overcome that uncertainty is to over design the crap out of the network, which of course costs much more money.
Good luck to the additional technical people coming onto the team. Hopefully next MLG they get it sorted out.
This is exactly what I needed to hear from MLG, I am glad the issues have been taken seriously and that the turn out was so good that it crashed their site and doubled their expectations of how many people they were expecting to tune into the stream.
I think the next MLG will be much more prepared and better taken care of and look forward to the event, if no giant stream issues hinder the next MLG in Columbus then I will definitely be consistently buying an HQ pass for every future MLG.
Thank you sundance for taking it serious and bringing in some great new tech experts, best of luck to MLG looking forward to the future events and competitions!
I find it hard to be confident in MLG when their stream has been sub par for the last few MLG's. The HQ has always been bad. I'm glad a 'new tech team' has been brought in, but they've shown little for anyone to expect anything better next event.
One stream per games is terrible when so many are going on. There should be multiple streams considering how much $$ they make from this. Give something back.
I appreciate the statement from Sundance. He's no idiot, and I'm sure he knows full well how thin the ice is that he now steps on. He and his organization have every incentive to make Columbus FAR better than Dallas, and I look forward to seeing what they can pull off.
I actually have to put a lot of the blame on the Dallas Convention center actually - maybe Sundance will think twice about going there again next season. I dont think they had a connection ready for the assault of gaming that went on that weekened.
I appreciate the clarification and I am willing to give mlg a second chance. However I don't think I will buy their stream again unless quality goes up and more games are shown.
I am just happy I got my money back for the hq pass, but more so disappointed I don't get to enjoy a weekend of sc2 which I hoped for.
I'll never give up on MLG. They're people who are motivated by love of the game.
I appreciate the restream all week, but will the games eventually be edited down to VODs? The problem with the restream is it makes it hard to catch things beginning to end.
Things went real bad. It was somewhat reassuring to see the staff of MLG get really stressed about it. I know Sundance's apology is sincere, especially since he's been graciously taking shit from all comers all weekend. It's time for this to wash away, and let's see what changed are made for the next event. Learn some lessons from this and that's what makes you a veteran.
One thing you need to know about CEO's is that they never have bad news about their corporation. It's their job to increase stockholder value, whether it's a public corp. or a private one. (It should be mentioned that CEO's usually have a great quantity of company stock in their portfolio.)
So whatever the truth is we'll never really know from a CEO. We will only ever hear the good part in the best possible light.
My point is: Always take what a CEO says with a grain of salt.
I just hope MLG realizes there were more problems as well. Obviously the stream was the worst, but the downtime between games when the stream was actually working was also terrible. Hope they fix both for the next event. Otherwise I won't actually look forward to MLGs anymore, which would be a shame because it has such potential.
On April 05 2011 05:08 kawaiiryuko wrote: Wow - a bunch of people just lost their jobs this weekend.
Does the rebroadcast means just re-streams or do we think that actual VODs will be available?
And that's how it should be. This isn't a charity and if esports is to ever be legitimate it needs to be treated as a business enterprise. If the staff at NBC botched a major sporting event's broadcast, you can bet your ass they'd be fired too.
most of their problems have to do with the event being too damn popular or too damn big... really not the worst problems to have. i'm really counting on MLG to thrive, its one of the only big money tournaments out there with an open entry process (looking at you, nasl) and high exposure so i really hope they get all their shit together, cant wait for pasadena, watch out for me
It's good to see this and together with the fact that Sunday was much better and we got to see the last part of the tourny and the finals as well makes up for their problems.
Jesus stop saying 150 countrys i want to know the actual number of people that tuned in if it's over a million fair enough how could you have predicted traffic of that magnitude if it's not then i dont have a ounce of compassion for you
why the hell would i even ask for a refund?! i put my money in the hands of those who are dedicated to growing esports. that money went exactly where it needed to go.
On April 05 2011 07:31 MrthePig wrote: why the hell would i even ask for a refund?! i put my money in the hands of those who are dedicated to growing esports. that money went exactly where it needed to go.
and i will be buying my ticket for columbus.
Because you paid for a service that was clearly never properly provided?
While I didn't get HD to this, nor will i be getting one for the next MLG, i am very impressed that they're offering it, simply because it's showing that they're at least TRYING to care about their customers.
If they didn't offer anything, and just kept everyone's money, think about how irate everyone would be, and how MLG would just be seen as a greedy money grabbing organization.
As it is, I'm at least willing to give them one more shot in columbus.
It's a nice article, but I'll believe things have changed when I see it. MLG has pulled this kind of trash a bit too often. Given how many competitors they have in the sc2 world I hope for their sakes they pull it together
As long as is isn't just talk it'll be good. Seriously tho if there are problems at columbus i cant help but see mlg falling into a pretty deep hole. On the other side of that coin a good showing will renew everyones faith. Talk is cheap....
Do yourself a favor Sundance and set up a show match, using the same platform and technology, and get as many hiccups out of the way as possible. Octoshape, SQ, HQ I don't care, run a live open test, pack it as tight as you can... Or not and I'm a technical noob that never soaks/stress tests my products.
Will it solve every problem? No, but you will find out ahead of time what needs to be fixed and have ample time to resolve it.
The type of problems they had (tech wise) where from the hundreds of thousands of people on the streams, and the massive amount of connections between Starcraft/Black Ops/ Halo and attendees to the internet.
You will not find any issues without the same stress on the connection.
As far as I am concerned I could care less about the tech issues. Stuff happens, I have no doubt it will be fixed with shear practice from dealing with the new size of MLG. What I have issue with is the pacing of the event itself. There is no reason not to have set up stages (plenty of distance from the current main stage players so as to not distract them) near the main stage where the next set of players ( as soon as they are ready) can get all of there equipment ready. It might be easy as spiting the main stage with a small wall (from the table back so as not to obstruct any spectator's view) for the staging area.
Ether way, I only care about keeping the wait down from over thirty minuets between games (without tech issues) closer to ten. With the exception of popular match ups that we may just wait for, which can easily be filled with more than 2 question interviews.
On April 05 2011 07:31 MrthePig wrote: why the hell would i even ask for a refund?! i put my money in the hands of those who are dedicated to growing esports. that money went exactly where it needed to go.
and i will be buying my ticket for columbus.
Unless you're into reinforcing negative habits, then sure, pay 100 times over. Most people, however, look for value in where they put their money. Outside of necessities, people look for luxury, convenience and investment.
Given the majority of people that attended and tried to watch, they didn't get any of that.
I think they handled this well, and I can only hope the upcoming events runs flawlessly. It could be one of the best events out there, imo, and I hope they succeed.
I hope nobody lost their job over this. Now that the people in those positions have experienced this, they have better and improved foresight. Bringing in new people that haven't experienced it will not solve any problems.
I don't get why there were only problems with the SC2 stream? (Might be wrong here). If they were having infrastructural problems wouldn't it affect all games?
Also does any one know the viewer numbers across the different games?
I really really found this forced. Sundance isn't a stupid person - but some of the things he says are soo cheesy.
"You deserve better than this"... How more cheesy can you get, it really bothers me because it seems to shut people up. It's like having an arguement with someone and they say "Yeah, you're right"... They are just trying to get off the hook and that's what I feel Sundance is trying to do.
I don't expect a big change to anything in MLG besides stream crashing, and I really hope people will not be manipulated easily by what he says here. Everyone can make up bs - So until we see real improvement we shouldn't be thanking him at all. Remember in SotG how he was hyping everything so much, and even if the stream didn't fail it would still probably be the worst viewing experience from all major tournaments due to all the delays etc.
On April 05 2011 08:57 Skillz_Man wrote: I really really found this forced. Sundance isn't a stupid person - but some of the things he says are soo cheesy.
"You deserve better than this"... How more cheesy can you get, it really bothers me because it seems to shut people up. It's like having an arguement with someone and they say "Yeah, you're right"... They are just trying to get off the hook and that's what I feel Sundance is trying to do.
I don't expect a big change to anything in MLG besides stream crashing, and I really hope people will not be manipulated easily by what he says here. Everyone can make up bs - So until we see real improvement we shouldn't be thanking him at all. Remember in SotG how he was hyping everything so much, and even if the stream didn't fail it would still probably be the worst viewing experience from all major tournaments due to all the delays etc.
Glad to see this. Sundance is truely a class-act. He is responsible for the majority of MLG's growth. I'm glad to see that he stepped up on Sunday and admitted their mistake. He's good in my book.
On a side note: I'm pretty sure SC2 alone crashed their site and stream the first day!
On April 05 2011 08:51 Highways wrote: I don't get why there were only problems with the SC2 stream? (Might be wrong here). If they were having infrastructural problems wouldn't it affect all games?
Also does any one know the viewer numbers across the different games?
On April 05 2011 08:57 Skillz_Man wrote: I really really found this forced. Sundance isn't a stupid person - but some of the things he says are soo cheesy.
"You deserve better than this"... How more cheesy can you get, it really bothers me because it seems to shut people up. It's like having an arguement with someone and they say "Yeah, you're right"... They are just trying to get off the hook and that's what I feel Sundance is trying to do.
I don't expect a big change to anything in MLG besides stream crashing, and I really hope people will not be manipulated easily by what he says here. Everyone can make up bs - So until we see real improvement we shouldn't be thanking him at all. Remember in SotG how he was hyping everything so much, and even if the stream didn't fail it would still probably be the worst viewing experience from all major tournaments due to all the delays etc.
If only you knew more about Sundance...
If only you understood he's a CEO and it's his job. I don't think you exactly understand how big of a role money plays in society, regardless of whether it's good or bad, it's just a reality.
first 2 days sat around waiting for stream to come back up, day 3 was good, looking forward to the next mlg event, hopefully its stable for all 3 days =)
There is a reason that the best companies, partner and OUT SOURCE with other best in class service providers to provide superior commercial products. Trying to do communications on this scale on your own, let alone some hotel/concert venue, is a disaster waiting to happen. Sure its ok when your events turn out hundreads to thousands of people, but once you start having viewers of the scale now showing up for esports events, you'd be a fool to use anyone other than tier 1 providers with BRAND NAME accountability behind the cast and the presentation.
Those feeds should say '..brought to you by Google' or '..IBM' or '...Verzion'. For starters, some of those companies would reduce their fees, some might even cover most of them just to have brand positioning. Secondly, that same brand positioning puts them 'on the hook' to make or break a fantastic product.
On April 05 2011 07:04 cYaN wrote: I just hope MLG realizes there were more problems as well. Obviously the stream was the worst, but the downtime between games when the stream was actually working was also terrible. Hope they fix both for the next event. Otherwise I won't actually look forward to MLGs anymore, which would be a shame because it has such potential.
At the same time, Id rather them work on one thing at a time. I dont really need them to show peoples face straight after the game, hell I dont even mind 30 minute delays if the stream is working perfectly fine. I think it would be better to close up one wound at a time rather then put a band-aid on all of them.
Also, this isnt really something thats new to me. I guess its nice about the transparency but I believe they have been like this for a while, and anyone who thought MLG didnt care about their stream is a little foolishly thinking. But maybe Im giving too much credit lol. Personally Ill continue to show up, one day, just maybe one day it will be super awesomeness.
On April 05 2011 08:57 Skillz_Man wrote: I really really found this forced. Sundance isn't a stupid person - but some of the things he says are soo cheesy.
"You deserve better than this"... How more cheesy can you get, it really bothers me because it seems to shut people up. It's like having an arguement with someone and they say "Yeah, you're right"... They are just trying to get off the hook and that's what I feel Sundance is trying to do.
I don't expect a big change to anything in MLG besides stream crashing, and I really hope people will not be manipulated easily by what he says here. Everyone can make up bs - So until we see real improvement we shouldn't be thanking him at all. Remember in SotG how he was hyping everything so much, and even if the stream didn't fail it would still probably be the worst viewing experience from all major tournaments due to all the delays etc.
But what is the APPROPRIATE response for the stream issue?
I mean, I get that everyone won't drink the kool-aid with this, but shit man.. what happened, happened--and at least they acknowledged the fact that it was less than ideal.
Even IF the intentions of this statement was to "get them off the hook"--they still acknowledged the fact that something went wrong, which is much more than so many others would do. It's not the end of the world. Jesus Christ. MLG will learn from mistakes, and the event will get better. It will become better by at least acknowledging past mistakes. This was appropriate.
ALso, re: not releasing the actual numbers. I can understand them not wanting their competitors to know the actual numbers for easy comparison, but I really feel their PR in this case could absolutely benefit from some data, especially if it's as big/"epic" as they're implying.
I think the community would have a much bigger appreciation and understanding of the issues if MLG just comes out and says "we expected 600k visitors, but over a million swarmed our site". As it stands, the site could've buckled under the load of 20k people. Unlikely, but the point is that we don't know.
On April 05 2011 08:57 Skillz_Man wrote: I really really found this forced. Sundance isn't a stupid person - but some of the things he says are soo cheesy.
"You deserve better than this"... How more cheesy can you get, it really bothers me because it seems to shut people up. It's like having an arguement with someone and they say "Yeah, you're right"... They are just trying to get off the hook and that's what I feel Sundance is trying to do.
I don't expect a big change to anything in MLG besides stream crashing, and I really hope people will not be manipulated easily by what he says here. Everyone can make up bs - So until we see real improvement we shouldn't be thanking him at all. Remember in SotG how he was hyping everything so much, and even if the stream didn't fail it would still probably be the worst viewing experience from all major tournaments due to all the delays etc.
If only you knew more about Sundance...
If only you understood he's a CEO and it's his job. I don't think you exactly understand how big of a role money plays in society, regardless of whether it's good or bad, it's just a reality.
Again you don't much about Sundance and how how he made MLG. If Sundance was all about the money he would have sold the Company when it was still on TV(USA network and G4 TV, but he didn't. In fact MLG has been losing money for the past 5-6 years. They only manage to make profit this year.
On April 05 2011 09:14 Bobster wrote: ALso, re: not releasing the actual numbers. I can understand them not wanting their competitors to know the actual numbers for easy comparison, but I really feel their PR in this case could absolutely benefit from some data, especially if it's as big/"epic" as they're implying.
I think the community would have a much bigger appreciation and understanding of the issues if MLG just comes out and says "we expected 600k visitors, but over a million swarmed our site". As it stands, the site could've buckled under the load of 20k people. Unlikely, but the point is that we don't know.
Sundance just twitted that he will release the numbers after the team gives it to him.
If they had a brain, they would have one dedicated connection for live stream (seperate from battlenet/network) that would be used for uploading to a provider that is actually built to handle that amount of traffic. WTF were they thinking that a single connectio hosted at a convention center would even have the capability of handling that amount of traffic.
I'm wary, but I do think that the next event will be better. Sundance probably realizes by now that he has a lot to prove; I just hope he and MLG are up to the challenge.
On April 05 2011 08:57 Skillz_Man wrote: "You deserve better than this"... How more cheesy can you get, it really bothers me because it seems to shut people up. It's like having an arguement with someone and they say "Yeah, you're right"... They are just trying to get off the hook and that's what I feel Sundance is trying to do.
Actually, people who have an argument and than have the guts to admit that the other person is right at the end of it normally get my respect in general.
Ohhh.. he was reading from this. When they broadcasted the pre-recorded video of him saying this it looked and sounded like he was reading off of a script.
On April 05 2011 06:00 Systemkaos wrote: Maybe i should submit my resume, i mean i know how to install windows 7 and configure my WRTG router. That should be good enough.
But its better than nothing I suppose. Seeing as they are bringing in a new team, makes me think it wasn't a primary routing issue TO the event. But the events internal crap was all kinds of wrong. I mean Dallas doesn't house some of the major ISPs their lines routing centers and data centers for nothing
Maybe you're trolling, I can't tell (if you are disregard what follows!) but WRTG home router isn't exactly what Sundance means when he says router.
The whole technical solution for their events is a huge project. One that almost needs to be completely redone every time they do an event:
1. Functional requirements of the network (How many connections do we need to support?) 2. Traffic analysis (Traffic type/load, and how much bandwidth do those connections need?) 3. Architecture and design[WAN links are here] (Drawings, excel spreadsheets etc) 4. Equipment procurement (presumably they own firewalls/routers/switches, but by the sounds of it they might need beefier equipment or they had failed components [Replaced a router and brought in new fiber]) 5. Implement (put the pieces together and make it work) 6. Sign off on functional requirements (does it do what we said in 1? If not revisit 2 through 5)
These super high level points are pretty basic steps in any network infrastructure project (really any project at all, just replace key terms with whatever you are working with!).
I would guess that the Sundance's comment about misjudging the number of people tuning into the stream is a mistake at Step 1. Therefore everything after that is under designed: hence connectivity problems.
It is hard to predict numbers like that and the only way to overcome that uncertainty is to over design the crap out of the network, which of course costs much more money.
Good luck to the additional technical people coming onto the team. Hopefully next MLG they get it sorted out.
Prolly making fun of the tech staff for the event. I have several pair of those switches sitting unused at work. They are nothing fancy.
To quote the article: "In all, we streamed 10,000 hours of content via multicast to more than 19,000 unique users from more than 100 countries." They talk about National Championship Dallas last year.
19000 don´t sound so impressive, but since I know TSL had more than 50000 viewers on HQ stream, perhaps that´s a reason they were so unprepared this year.
Althougt I just watched sunday (almost without any problems) I was very disappointed because of most the points that were made in this thread on TL . I really watched several hours and more than half the time were breakes. Can´t complain much, because I watched for free, I guess I´m just spoiled with other free tournaments.
I paid my $10 for HQ, as I have in the past, just as I pay for other esports (GSL mainly).
My disgust this weekend was not merely at technical problems. Indeed, tech issues can happen and I believe they truly were trying to fix them. (Lack of LAN option hurt). Could they have tested better? Without knowing what testing they did, how wild the traffic was, and what truly went wrong, I can't say.
But I can say....
1) When the stream was up and stuff WASN'T lagging out...we still had ridiculous amounts of talk time vs game time. Epically ridiculous. Day[9] and djWheat and JP aren't terrible, but if I want to listen to them talk forever I can listen to the Day9 Dailies or SOTG. That's not what I signed up for. 2) When stuff WAS lagging out (but stream was up)...why did we not start seeing casters going over replays of some of the many awesome matches that weren't originally cast (sooner than we did)? People here figured out that that'd be a good fallback plan long, LONG before they did. (And we're not that smart!) 3) There was minimal value-add. When a game isn't going, why don't we see an updated bracket appearing on the screen? Live blogging a result or updating a separate web page (out-of-sync) doesn't really make it as clear. (And perhaps that'd encourage them to get a bracket that can be viewed on one non-scrolling screen) Note: They may have added this later, I stopped watching when I got bored a few hours in on Sat. Ultimately I stopped trying to understand the results and just figured a result (from the TL tweet, because I had stopped watching by Sunday) was "goodish" or "badish". 4) Communication was not the best. While tweets from @MLG_Sundance gave us some info, [And how would the average person know to even check there?] the general site tended to have updates only from the previous day, both vague and quickly out of date. Apologizing up front and giving some answers might have reduced some of the rage. Heck, at one point when someone kvetched about #2, djWheat called him/her "a vagina". Not really the sort of communication to soothe angry customers. 5) While I was glad to see more ads (as in, variety) than past MLGs ("Stick a fork in those buns!") they can still do a lot to improve that, not to mention they really should point out to companies who the audience is (hint: Get Real was about as well targeted as....no, nothing else has been that poorly targeted)
Ultimately, the issue for me is not funds. I'd pay $20 without blinking if I get to see the great games that I read about on the TeamLiquid twitter feed. But LQ isn't worth watching while HQ wasn't available. ("And the Zerg blobs move towards the Terran blob! SO FEW PIXELLINGS!") And I don't get to see most of those games anyway. AND when I do get to see those games they lie in between long walls of boring (sorry casters) chatter.
My core issue is that committing 15+ hours over my weekend represents a huge chunk of my free time and I didn't get value for that. This wasn't something that I'll tell my friends about (at least not in a positive way), and come Columbus or other events I may find that the rest of my life (or just catching up on GSL vods that I'm behind on) is just more valuable.
I'm MLGs target audience: not really a gamer (though a total geek). Financially able to pay and willing. When I recommend, it will be to other people that'd be unlikely to look at it without a recommendation, and they too are ideal growth audience. (all of you watching the LQ stream may be fans and important for that, but you aren't making them much money so that doesn't encourage much change). If they aren't concerned about the above then technical issues really are the least of their concerns.
On April 05 2011 09:08 BoneDancr wrote: There is a reason that the best companies, partner and OUT SOURCE with other best in class service providers to provide superior commercial products. Trying to do communications on this scale on your own, let alone some hotel/concert venue, is a disaster waiting to happen. Sure its ok when your events turn out hundreads to thousands of people, but once you start having viewers of the scale now showing up for esports events, you'd be a fool to use anyone other than tier 1 providers with BRAND NAME accountability behind the cast and the presentation.
Those feeds should say '..brought to you by Google' or '..IBM' or '...Verzion'. For starters, some of those companies would reduce their fees, some might even cover most of them just to have brand positioning. Secondly, that same brand positioning puts them 'on the hook' to make or break a fantastic product.
This. Google does it with IPL already. Tho I feel like a dedicated ISP for relaying broadcast to Justin (or any current big streaming service) would've sufficed.
To quote the article: "In all, we streamed 10,000 hours of content via multicast to more than 19,000 unique users from more than 100 countries." They talk about National Championship Dallas last year.
19000 don´t sound so impressive, but since I know TSL had more than 50000 viewers on HQ stream, perhaps that´s a reason they were so unprepared this year.
Althougt I just watched sunday (almost without any problems) I was very disappointed because of most the points that were made in this thread on TL . I really watched several hours and more than half the time were breakes. Can´t complain much, because I watched for free, I guess I´m just spoiled with other free tournaments.
"In 2010, more than 600,000 unique viewers tuned in for the live broadcast of each weekend event and the complete tour delivered 11 million live streams."
Now MLG Said it was doubled then the expected amount for the Dallas event, So yeaaa.... do the math.
I'm glad they are going to bring in a professional team, kudos to that.
however, as noted in the feedback thread. MLG has a lot of issues to iron out that aren't just internet connectivity problems. I hope these will be addressed with the same rigor.
On April 05 2011 08:57 Skillz_Man wrote: I really really found this forced. Sundance isn't a stupid person - but some of the things he says are soo cheesy.
"You deserve better than this"... How more cheesy can you get, it really bothers me because it seems to shut people up. It's like having an arguement with someone and they say "Yeah, you're right"... They are just trying to get off the hook and that's what I feel Sundance is trying to do.
I don't expect a big change to anything in MLG besides stream crashing, and I really hope people will not be manipulated easily by what he says here. Everyone can make up bs - So until we see real improvement we shouldn't be thanking him at all. Remember in SotG how he was hyping everything so much, and even if the stream didn't fail it would still probably be the worst viewing experience from all major tournaments due to all the delays etc.
If only you knew more about Sundance...
If only you understood he's a CEO and it's his job. I don't think you exactly understand how big of a role money plays in society, regardless of whether it's good or bad, it's just a reality.
Again you don't much about Sundance and how how he made MLG. If Sundance was all about the money he would have sold the Company when it was still on TV(USA network and G4 TV, but he didn't. In fact MLG has been losing money for the past 5-6 years. They only manage to make profit this year.
most business don't have a lot of earnings in their first 5 years. Are you saying Sundance is some sort of esports saint that doesn't believe he can make an amazing living (if hes not already) through MLG yet continues to grind because he wants to do it? Don't be so naive. It's his business venture and he believes in it because he think it will eventually breakthrough and he and the company will become extremely successful. If he didn't believe in this MLG would be gone by now or have a new owner. None of this is bad, it's business but don't act like hes not in it for himself just as much as any other ceo of a small business.
On April 05 2011 08:57 Skillz_Man wrote: I really really found this forced. Sundance isn't a stupid person - but some of the things he says are soo cheesy.
"You deserve better than this"... How more cheesy can you get, it really bothers me because it seems to shut people up. It's like having an arguement with someone and they say "Yeah, you're right"... They are just trying to get off the hook and that's what I feel Sundance is trying to do.
I don't expect a big change to anything in MLG besides stream crashing, and I really hope people will not be manipulated easily by what he says here. Everyone can make up bs - So until we see real improvement we shouldn't be thanking him at all. Remember in SotG how he was hyping everything so much, and even if the stream didn't fail it would still probably be the worst viewing experience from all major tournaments due to all the delays etc.
If only you knew more about Sundance...
If only you understood he's a CEO and it's his job. I don't think you exactly understand how big of a role money plays in society, regardless of whether it's good or bad, it's just a reality.
Again you don't much about Sundance and how how he made MLG. If Sundance was all about the money he would have sold the Company when it was still on TV(USA network and G4 TV, but he didn't. In fact MLG has been losing money for the past 5-6 years. They only manage to make profit this year.
most business don't have a lot of earnings in their first 5 years. Are you saying Sundance is some sort of esports saint that doesn't believe he can make an amazing living (if hes not already) through MLG yet continues to grind because he wants to do it? Don't be so naive. It's his business venture and he believes in it because he think it will eventually breakthrough and he and the company will become extremely successful. If he didn't believe in this MLG would be gone by now or have a new owner. None of this is bad, it's business but don't act like hes not in it for himself just as much as any other ceo of a small business.
Like I said earlier If only you knew more about Sundance, and followed MLG since the beginning.
I think this really says a lot about Sundance and MLG as a corporation. I'm really glad to have people like this at the forefront of eSports in America.
Can someone please talk about the failures of MLG that were NOT related to the internet connection?
Why did we need to wait 45+ minutes in between games? All you needed were *gasp* four whole computers on the main stage so the next match could get set up while the first match is being played.
Why did the commentators need to read the TL twitter feed to update us on the games that were being played? Why could they not join the game lobbies and spectate the games? I'm sure MLG has some dumb rule that only games on the main stage can be casted. That rule makes no sense and ruins the broadcast with constant delays.
Why are there still not booths for the competitors? The sound issues have already compromised the game of Idra vs Socke and made it so people spectating the event live cannot hear the commentators.
This one is more excusable given the constant chaos but why was there not more MLG content aside from the games? Interviews where literally one question is asked? Map videos which border on the mundane? The only MLG content that was interesting was the variety of ways the commentators figured out how to kill time during the massive delays.
On April 05 2011 08:57 Skillz_Man wrote: I really really found this forced. Sundance isn't a stupid person - but some of the things he says are soo cheesy.
"You deserve better than this"... How more cheesy can you get, it really bothers me because it seems to shut people up. It's like having an arguement with someone and they say "Yeah, you're right"... They are just trying to get off the hook and that's what I feel Sundance is trying to do.
I don't expect a big change to anything in MLG besides stream crashing, and I really hope people will not be manipulated easily by what he says here. Everyone can make up bs - So until we see real improvement we shouldn't be thanking him at all. Remember in SotG how he was hyping everything so much, and even if the stream didn't fail it would still probably be the worst viewing experience from all major tournaments due to all the delays etc.
If only you knew more about Sundance...
If only you understood he's a CEO and it's his job. I don't think you exactly understand how big of a role money plays in society, regardless of whether it's good or bad, it's just a reality.
Again you don't much about Sundance and how how he made MLG. If Sundance was all about the money he would have sold the Company when it was still on TV(USA network and G4 TV, but he didn't. In fact MLG has been losing money for the past 5-6 years. They only manage to make profit this year.
most business don't have a lot of earnings in their first 5 years. Are you saying Sundance is some sort of esports saint that doesn't believe he can make an amazing living (if hes not already) through MLG yet continues to grind because he wants to do it? Don't be so naive. It's his business venture and he believes in it because he think it will eventually breakthrough and he and the company will become extremely successful. If he didn't believe in this MLG would be gone by now or have a new owner. None of this is bad, it's business but don't act like hes not in it for himself just as much as any other ceo of a small business.
Like I said earlier If only you knew more about Sundance, and followed MLG since the beginning.
you can keep repeating yourself if you like but you're adding nothing of substance. you must be really gullible, ronald mcdonald really cares about kids too, right?
I honestly don't even understand the point you're trying to make. are you saying that if some how sundance had the foresight to know MLG would never be successful and would lose millions of dollars a year he would still put on the MLG because he has a passion for putting on gaming tournaments? That he would sacrifice his livelihood and his time because he has such a passion for gaming nothing would come between it? Honestly, what is your point?
I think the sound issue at the live event is a big problem. People who spend the money to travel to MLG can't hear the commentators live? How boring is that.
Give them players the tiny headphones for game sound and then sound proof headphones over those. Same thing they do at GSL(minus the booth blazing music)
On April 05 2011 10:18 d3_crescentia wrote: Just in case anyone didn't realize already, this is the same (prerecorded, I think) speech he delivered to the stream on Sunday.
This isn't super concerning to me. I liked the content of his speech, and I think its more important to take the time to deliver a concise, well thought-out message, than to do something live and say something wrong accidentally.
@MLG_Sundance Sundance DiGiovanni @anepicname Site saw just under a million uniques during the event. Will be releasing final numbers once we get a full picture.
I guess it's hoping to much to get the numbers per feed, probably will be all the feeds.
On April 05 2011 10:56 Jiddra wrote: @MLG_Sundance Sundance DiGiovanni @anepicname Site saw just under a million uniques during the event. Will be releasing final numbers once we get a full picture.
nice so perhaps when the stream was working.. we beat the eagles. (:
Sorry if I'm not so quick to forgive and forget but sounds like the same old shit MLG has been pushing out after every bad event, always "we're sorry, we'll try harder" and they keep making huge mistakes all over the place. If they get the recipe right one of these days then hell ya I'll be all for it and will give them full support, but until they show some results it's all just public relations bullshit.
On April 05 2011 08:57 Skillz_Man wrote: I really really found this forced. Sundance isn't a stupid person - but some of the things he says are soo cheesy.
"You deserve better than this"... How more cheesy can you get, it really bothers me because it seems to shut people up. It's like having an arguement with someone and they say "Yeah, you're right"... They are just trying to get off the hook and that's what I feel Sundance is trying to do.
I don't expect a big change to anything in MLG besides stream crashing, and I really hope people will not be manipulated easily by what he says here. Everyone can make up bs - So until we see real improvement we shouldn't be thanking him at all. Remember in SotG how he was hyping everything so much, and even if the stream didn't fail it would still probably be the worst viewing experience from all major tournaments due to all the delays etc.
If only you knew more about Sundance...
If only you understood he's a CEO and it's his job. I don't think you exactly understand how big of a role money plays in society, regardless of whether it's good or bad, it's just a reality.
Again you don't much about Sundance and how how he made MLG. If Sundance was all about the money he would have sold the Company when it was still on TV(USA network and G4 TV, but he didn't. In fact MLG has been losing money for the past 5-6 years. They only manage to make profit this year.
most business don't have a lot of earnings in their first 5 years. Are you saying Sundance is some sort of esports saint that doesn't believe he can make an amazing living (if hes not already) through MLG yet continues to grind because he wants to do it? Don't be so naive. It's his business venture and he believes in it because he think it will eventually breakthrough and he and the company will become extremely successful. If he didn't believe in this MLG would be gone by now or have a new owner. None of this is bad, it's business but don't act like hes not in it for himself just as much as any other ceo of a small business.
Like I said earlier If only you knew more about Sundance, and followed MLG since the beginning.
you can keep repeating yourself if you like but you're adding nothing of substance. you must be really gullible, ronald mcdonald really cares about kids too, right?
I honestly don't even understand the point you're trying to make. are you saying that if some how sundance had the foresight to know MLG would never be successful and would lose millions of dollars a year he would still put on the MLG because he has a passion for putting on gaming tournaments? That he would sacrifice his livelihood and his time because he has such a passion for gaming nothing would come between it? Honestly, what is your point?
My point is that some of you guys are gullible, believing posts saying that Sundance is all about the money and he doesn't care about the community, Competition, and the future competitive gaming. some of you guys are putting Sundance in the same boat as those fat cat CEO's who only care about the money and don't give a crap about the people/community. I understand you guys thinking this way, Because you know nothing about him or don't follow MLG since the beginning.
Also why I repeated what I said earlier? Because its true. If you knew more about him, You would think differently have a better understanding of Sundance/MLG.
On April 05 2011 08:57 Skillz_Man wrote: I really really found this forced. Sundance isn't a stupid person - but some of the things he says are soo cheesy.
"You deserve better than this"... How more cheesy can you get, it really bothers me because it seems to shut people up. It's like having an arguement with someone and they say "Yeah, you're right"... They are just trying to get off the hook and that's what I feel Sundance is trying to do.
I don't expect a big change to anything in MLG besides stream crashing, and I really hope people will not be manipulated easily by what he says here. Everyone can make up bs - So until we see real improvement we shouldn't be thanking him at all. Remember in SotG how he was hyping everything so much, and even if the stream didn't fail it would still probably be the worst viewing experience from all major tournaments due to all the delays etc.
If only you knew more about Sundance...
If only you understood he's a CEO and it's his job. I don't think you exactly understand how big of a role money plays in society, regardless of whether it's good or bad, it's just a reality.
Again you don't much about Sundance and how how he made MLG. If Sundance was all about the money he would have sold the Company when it was still on TV(USA network and G4 TV, but he didn't. In fact MLG has been losing money for the past 5-6 years. They only manage to make profit this year.
most business don't have a lot of earnings in their first 5 years. Are you saying Sundance is some sort of esports saint that doesn't believe he can make an amazing living (if hes not already) through MLG yet continues to grind because he wants to do it? Don't be so naive. It's his business venture and he believes in it because he think it will eventually breakthrough and he and the company will become extremely successful. If he didn't believe in this MLG would be gone by now or have a new owner. None of this is bad, it's business but don't act like hes not in it for himself just as much as any other ceo of a small business.
Like I said earlier If only you knew more about Sundance, and followed MLG since the beginning.
you can keep repeating yourself if you like but you're adding nothing of substance. you must be really gullible, ronald mcdonald really cares about kids too, right?
I honestly don't even understand the point you're trying to make. are you saying that if some how sundance had the foresight to know MLG would never be successful and would lose millions of dollars a year he would still put on the MLG because he has a passion for putting on gaming tournaments? That he would sacrifice his livelihood and his time because he has such a passion for gaming nothing would come between it? Honestly, what is your point?
My point is that some of you guys are gullible, believing posts saying that Sundance is all about the money and he doesn't care about the community, Competition, and the future competitive gaming. some of you guys are putting Sundance in the same boat as those fat cat CEO's who only care about the money and don't give a crap about the people/community. I understand you guys thinking this way, Because you know nothing about him or don't follow MLG since the beginning.
Also why I repeated what I said earlier? Because its true. If you knew more about him, You would think differently have a better understanding of Sundance/MLG.
I take it you have worked with him, or are you a close friend?
lol, some of you have a huge case of entitlement syndrome. No one is entitled to a damn thing unless you were 1) there or, 2) spent money. All this pissing on MLG because they didn't get what they wanted, when they wanted it, how they wanted.. it's just funny to me. I'm all for making suggestions on how to make MLG and/or eSports more pleasurable to the most people; however, some of the comments in this thread, and several others would make you think this was the most disastrous thing to ever have happened to eSports and SC2. y so srs? D=
On April 05 2011 10:56 Jiddra wrote: @MLG_Sundance Sundance DiGiovanni @anepicname Site saw just under a million uniques during the event. Will be releasing final numbers once we get a full picture.
I guess it's hoping to much to get the numbers per feed, probably will be all the feeds.
If it's so popular I'd really like to see an increase in the prize pool to reflect that. 5,000 just isn't much money for people to be traveling from Europe and whatnot. SC2 obviously makes them more money than any other game, I'd love for the players to see some of that.
On April 05 2011 08:57 Skillz_Man wrote: "You deserve better than this"... How more cheesy can you get, it really bothers me because it seems to shut people up. It's like having an arguement with someone and they say "Yeah, you're right"... They are just trying to get off the hook and that's what I feel Sundance is trying to do.
Actually, people who have an argument and than have the guts to admit that the other person is right at the end of it normally get my respect in general.
See but it's not an arguement. Only stupid people keep arguing an unwinnable situation... While MLG is a little smarter than that and then everyone seems pleased... Even though big changes aren't being made.
I mean especially teachers, this is such a common technique - saying okay you're right or something along those lines. And it's enough to satisfy most people when they didn't do anything.
I didn't buy the pass but I'd love to see whether people are opting for the free pass or the refund. Could say a lot about the success of upcoming MLGs...hopefully people can look past this or we could potentially see a significant prize pool drop off =/ Mind adding a poll to see which option people are taking?
On April 05 2011 11:34 henreiman wrote: I didn't buy the pass but I'd love to see whether people are opting for the free pass or the refund. Could say a lot about the success of upcoming MLGs...hopefully people can look past this or we could potentially see a significant prize pool drop off =/ Mind adding a poll to see which option people are taking?
I don't see how they could make the prize pool any lower. Players like Naniwa - it costs him maybe 1.5k-2k dollars to fly over the the US and pay for a hotel, food, etc. If they actually want to attract players they have to have a decent prize pool... I forget which player it was, but he wanted to go to the MLG but his team told him you pretty much have to win for it to be justified by the low amount of cash earned.
Ofcourse 5k is a great amount in an online tourney, but when you have to fly somewhere, and you are competing for 5k dollars where you are paying 70 dollars for a ticket as well as housing etc it adds up not really being worth it. (Hence very few europian players)
It's nice to see a professional approach from Sundance; in terms of the streaming it was a major blunder for MLG this weekend. It had such potential to be an incredible tournament to help kick off 2011 alongside TSL, GSL and the upcoming NASL. I just feel the streaming issues will leave a bitter taste in everyone's mouth when MLG Dallas 2011 is mentioned..
Hopefully Naniwa's 25-2 (25-0) run will overshadow this though hehe..
The only way to make things better is to provide a flawless service at the next MLG events then we will have restored faith in you Mr Sundance
Im kind of glad all this happens. I think this will really show them how big e-sports is getting. I'm going to Columbus so hopefully most of it is fixed by then!
(maybe with all this crazy love for starcraft the prize pool will significantly go up next year?)
On April 05 2011 11:34 henreiman wrote: I didn't buy the pass but I'd love to see whether people are opting for the free pass or the refund. Could say a lot about the success of upcoming MLGs...hopefully people can look past this or we could potentially see a significant prize pool drop off =/ Mind adding a poll to see which option people are taking?
I don't see how they could make the prize pool any lower. Players like Naniwa - it costs him maybe 1.5k-2k dollars to fly over the the US and pay for a hotel, food, etc. If they actually want to attract players they have to have a decent prize pool... I forget which player it was, but he wanted to go to the MLG but his team told him you pretty much have to win for it to be justified by the low amount of cash earned.
Ofcourse 5k is a great amount in an online tourney, but when you have to fly somewhere, and you are competing for 5k dollars where you are paying 70 dollars for a ticket as well as housing etc it adds up not really being worth it. (Hence very few europian players)
I think it was on SOTG, Sundance said he took a gamble by adding SC2 for MLG. If it works out well Prize money will go up, If not it will stay the same. Guess he was trying to be on the safe side.
i have to say, if MLG is trying to present something similar to what the GSL is in Korea, Dallas was a step in the wrong direction. But it's always nice to see effort made to mend mistakes/issues. Well handled in the end.
The CoD community is also not so pleased with how this weekend went, looking at production value. And here I thought they got it 100% better than SC2. We must remember that this speach is not only to the SC2 community, it is to the halo and cod community too.
I really hope we could get the figures from the different feeds, but that will never happend.
Him apologizing for the stream issue is great, but I feel that he really had to do that at the end of the day to be honest to keep his company's image in check.
But the problem that I have is they admit the stream issues were an issue, but there is no word about anything else. Sound issues like IdrA hearing a Void Ray bring built? That right there ruins an entire tournament. It doesn't matter if he would have won or lost, the fact is it still is there in the back of your mind that an outside thing influenced the results. It's like that guy in Happy Gilmore yelling out "Jackass" all the time.
Live spectators not hearing the commentators is just stupid. Day9, WHEAT, and JP might as well have not even been there if that's the case.
Scheduling and spectated matches. qxc said in an interview I watched earlier that he played one match on Saturday. ONE. Then to compound that there were half hour breaks in between spectated matches. Why? This is not MLG's first rodeo. Stream issues can happen. That's technology. But issues like this are just caused by poor planing.
I don't know. I guess I was just expecting more after seeing other tournaments run fairly well. And some even by people with no real history of running a tournament, like the reddit invitational.
I really like Sundance. He's a really great guy, and he has rewarded the SC2 community with a ton of respect and attention. MLG has been consistently improving, and I have no doubt that Columbus will have more reliable streams than Dallas.
Of course the technical issues were the most noticeable but I think theres many other things they need to work on for the next MLG. Even if the stream was flawless seeing Day9 and Wheat talking non stop for 3 days gets old no matter how much you love them. They should really work on reducing the down time and having better player interviews as well increasing the overall professionalism of the event.
On April 05 2011 11:34 henreiman wrote: I didn't buy the pass but I'd love to see whether people are opting for the free pass or the refund. Could say a lot about the success of upcoming MLGs...hopefully people can look past this or we could potentially see a significant prize pool drop off =/ Mind adding a poll to see which option people are taking?
I don't see how they could make the prize pool any lower. Players like Naniwa - it costs him maybe 1.5k-2k dollars to fly over the the US and pay for a hotel, food, etc. If they actually want to attract players they have to have a decent prize pool... I forget which player it was, but he wanted to go to the MLG but his team told him you pretty much have to win for it to be justified by the low amount of cash earned.
Ofcourse 5k is a great amount in an online tourney, but when you have to fly somewhere, and you are competing for 5k dollars where you are paying 70 dollars for a ticket as well as housing etc it adds up not really being worth it. (Hence very few europian players)
I heard that $5k is the max amount of prize money a tournament can give out before being required to have a discussion with Blizzard about the implications of expanding the prize pool.
I think I read this in the IGN Proleague tournament thread, but it seems that the original post may have been edited (or maybe my memory is faulty).
On April 05 2011 11:34 henreiman wrote: I didn't buy the pass but I'd love to see whether people are opting for the free pass or the refund. Could say a lot about the success of upcoming MLGs...hopefully people can look past this or we could potentially see a significant prize pool drop off =/ Mind adding a poll to see which option people are taking?
I don't see how they could make the prize pool any lower. Players like Naniwa - it costs him maybe 1.5k-2k dollars to fly over the the US and pay for a hotel, food, etc. If they actually want to attract players they have to have a decent prize pool... I forget which player it was, but he wanted to go to the MLG but his team told him you pretty much have to win for it to be justified by the low amount of cash earned.
Ofcourse 5k is a great amount in an online tourney, but when you have to fly somewhere, and you are competing for 5k dollars where you are paying 70 dollars for a ticket as well as housing etc it adds up not really being worth it. (Hence very few europian players)
I heard that $5k is the max amount of prize money a tournament can give out before being required to have a discussion with Blizzard about the implications of expanding the prize pool.
I think I read this in the IGN Proleague tournament thread, but it seems that the original post may have been edited (or maybe my memory is faulty).
No you're correct.
"Q: Why only $5,000 for Season 1?
A: $5,000 is the maximum you can give as prize money before you have to jump a bunch of hoops with Blizzard. We're working with Blizzard in regards to our future events but for now, for our test run, we're just working with that amount. Also, not to say that $5,000 is an insignificant amount, but our future events will significantly eclipse that mark."
On April 05 2011 11:34 henreiman wrote: I didn't buy the pass but I'd love to see whether people are opting for the free pass or the refund. Could say a lot about the success of upcoming MLGs...hopefully people can look past this or we could potentially see a significant prize pool drop off =/ Mind adding a poll to see which option people are taking?
I don't see how they could make the prize pool any lower. Players like Naniwa - it costs him maybe 1.5k-2k dollars to fly over the the US and pay for a hotel, food, etc. If they actually want to attract players they have to have a decent prize pool... I forget which player it was, but he wanted to go to the MLG but his team told him you pretty much have to win for it to be justified by the low amount of cash earned.
Ofcourse 5k is a great amount in an online tourney, but when you have to fly somewhere, and you are competing for 5k dollars where you are paying 70 dollars for a ticket as well as housing etc it adds up not really being worth it. (Hence very few europian players)
I heard that $5k is the max amount of prize money a tournament can give out before being required to have a discussion with Blizzard about the implications of expanding the prize pool.
I think I read this in the IGN Proleague tournament thread, but it seems that the original post may have been edited (or maybe my memory is faulty).
No you're correct.
"Q: Why only $5,000 for Season 1?
A: $5,000 is the maximum you can give as prize money before you have to jump a bunch of hoops with Blizzard. We're working with Blizzard in regards to our future events but for now, for our test run, we're just working with that amount. Also, not to say that $5,000 is an insignificant amount, but our future events will significantly eclipse that mark."
I'm curious, does Blizzard control prize pool for all these tournaments?
Technically, all tournaments are required to submit a form to Blizzard notifying them of the tournament. It's basically their way of having a sense of control over the e-sports scene, though I have yet to see them exercise this in a way other than just blindly approving the hordes of tournament forms that are submitted to them.
If you plan to host a StarCraft II tournament, please fill out this required form with all the necessary information to proceed. An acceptance is required to hold StarCraft II tournaments.
Will the tournament be an on-site event? * Yes No Is there a fee for people to watch the tournament? * Yes No Will more than 500 players participate in the tournament? * Yes No Is there an entry fee for participating in the tournament? * Yes No Will the tournament offer total cash and item rewards valued over $5,000? * Yes No Will the tournament be televised? * Yes No Will the tournament have sponsors? * Yes No
I guess it's probably a way for Blizzard to have a method of legally collecting royalties or imposing fees or exerting copyright BS should the tournament become large and profitable enough. The tournament submission form seems to be their way of preventing another KeSPA vs Blizzard situation anywhere else for SC2.
I wanted to quickly post to let all of you know that we will be working to not only give you a stable stream in Cbus but a better broadcast experience as well (fewer delays, more matches, more interviews and a proper closing ceremony).
I know that many of you have no faith in us but I just want you all to know that we are committed to this for the long haul.
Please keep the suggestions coming. Although we can't do everything it's helpful to hear constructive criticism.
-sd
(edit)
Yes game audio and casters for the crowd will also be looked into.
It's been a long and rough weekend - I'm not running at 100% capacity.
Well done addressing the issues, hopefully between now and Columbus things will be going very smooth. Surprised though that he didn't mention anything about players being able to hear castes and so on, I guess thats another post down the road.
On April 05 2011 12:55 MLG_Sundance wrote: I wanted to quickly post to let all of you know that we will be working to not only give you a stable stream in Cbus but a better broadcast experience as well (fewer delays, more matches, more interviews and a proper closing ceremony).
I know that many of you have no faith in us but I just want you all to know that we are committed to this for the long haul.
Please keep the suggestions coming. Although we can't do everything it's helpful to hear constructive criticism.
-sd
(edit)
Yes game audio and casters for the crowd will also be looked into.
It's been a long and rough weekend - I'm not running at 100% capacity.
On April 05 2011 12:55 MLG_Sundance wrote: I wanted to quickly post to let all of you know that we will be working to not only give you a stable stream in Cbus but a better broadcast experience as well (fewer delays, more matches, more interviews and a proper closing ceremony).
I know that many of you have no faith in us but I just want you all to know that we are committed to this for the long haul.
Please keep the suggestions coming. Although we can't do everything it's helpful to hear constructive criticism.
-sd
This isn't the first time I've seen you post lol, forgot your old login info? haha
But on a serious note, Sundance, you wouldn't come on here and post on TL, reacted the way you have on twitter the past 4 days, and done what you guys have done if you didn't really mean it, that you want to put in a better broadcast.
If the rumors are true that there just isn't fast enough upload in all of Dallas, then the issue is a venue problem over anything.
Hopefully Columbus doesn't have the same issues, or for that matter Anaheim, Raleigh, and Providence.
He writes all that. Then restreams the delayed weekend in a non-edited format.
Perhaps they need someone to sit back not be involved with planning and just think of what could go wrong at any time based off what they're doing. Then take that list and determine what is most useful to avoid and go off that.
On April 05 2011 13:02 NoobSkills wrote: He writes all that. Then restreams the delayed weekend in a non-edited format.
Perhaps they need someone to sit back not be involved with planning and just think of what could go wrong at any time based off what they're doing. Then take that list and determine what is most useful to avoid and go off that.
Last thing before go to bed for real - to edit the stream would take too much time. It's either the stream with delays or go dark. After all the issues we decided that something was better than nothing.
Will also be bundling up all the replays as soon as we are able to.
On April 05 2011 12:55 MLG_Sundance wrote: I wanted to quickly post to let all of you know that we will be working to not only give you a stable stream in Cbus but a better broadcast experience as well (fewer delays, more matches, more interviews and a proper closing ceremony).
I know that many of you have no faith in us but I just want you all to know that we are committed to this for the long haul.
Please keep the suggestions coming. Although we can't do everything it's helpful to hear constructive criticism.
-sd
(edit)
Yes game audio and casters for the crowd will also be looked into.
It's been a long and rough weekend - I'm not running at 100% capacity.
You're going to get a lot of shit, and rightfully so.
But I, for one, appreciate the fact that you have been upfront and admitted fault instead of trying to pass blame or ignore that problems do not exist.
I do not think there is a solution for the audio problem without soundproof booths. While you would only need two, for the game that's actually being casted at the moment, it's not likely something you can just throw together or add for your next event. For live SC2 events to ever be completely legit, however, it's a necessity. The live crowd not being able to hear the game being casted is extremely unfortunate.
But thank you for listening to the community. Although I was severely disappointed with all the problems with the broadcast, I hope others will be willing to give MLG a chance at the next event.
Said before and I'll say it again. Classy move taking responsibility for everything. What you guys are doing for the game is hugely appreciated even with the bumps in the road. I'm super stoked for Columbus.
I have to say, I really appreciate Sundance for being upfront and direct with the community, apologizing on Twitter, on the MLG website, on the stream, and even on TL. It's awesome to have him be so involved with the fans of the e-sports community, and I don't think people appreciate how fortunate it is to have the CEO of a major e-sports entity be talking to us through TL posts and Twitter replies.
I have faith that MLG will learn from these mistakes and will rise from the ashes of MLG Dallas like a phoenix to make MLG Columbus and beyond much better experiences. Even if they fail, at least it's safe to say that they are trying their hardest to iron out what is actually a very difficult task.
I bagged on MLG from the start, but I'm also impressed by the way Sundance is handling this. I was never not going to watch the Columbus show (I might drive out there if I'm available that weekend). For the good of e-sports I hope everyone gives them another chance as well even though the majority of my comments don't reflect this message.
Pretty impressive that Sundance actually posted on TL to explain things, hopefully it's a lesson learned and things go great in Columbus, best of luck to MLG.
Alot of people on here have an outrageous sense of judgement on MLG, which I find suprising considering most of them didnt pay for it or contribute anything in anyway. Bad things happen, I sure hope everyone here can understand that. Rome wasnt built in day, and Esports wont be either. MLG is doing nothing but good things for esports and I sincerely hope that they are successful in the future.
While this weekend was disappointing, I certainly cannot fault them for ISP problems and the works. My only suggestion would be to make sure of things you are already aware of (casted games for both the stram and crowd, more matches and less downtime) are ready to go for columbus.
I for one, was a person who sat through all of friday and saturdays issues for about 11 hours total, and despite all of that I will still be tuning into columbus. Day 3 was great! Dont worry about all the haters you see in the live report threads, I think the vast majority of them were just making a big deal out of it because they were so excited for the games and they will be back for the next event. Heres hoping for a better columbus. MLG FIGHTING!!!!
I'm quite pleased at Sundance's decision to post on here. I mean, really guys... at the end of the day they clearly did not intend on having the issues they did. Whether it's financial motivation or personal passion behind it, they clearly want MLG events to be the best they can be. Surely they will be doing their best to make sure it goes better in the future.
I personally am looking forward to Columbus since one way or another things can hopefully work out for the better with said venue. I have been at this venue before and know that it is well equipped to handle a variety of traffic and internet issues. I will also be attending in person and hopefully can pull a few strings since I know some people in the area that are involved with the facility itself to help prevent Dallas from repeating itself
On April 05 2011 13:02 NoobSkills wrote: He writes all that. Then restreams the delayed weekend in a non-edited format.
Perhaps they need someone to sit back not be involved with planning and just think of what could go wrong at any time based off what they're doing. Then take that list and determine what is most useful to avoid and go off that.
... After this weekend I think they had other priorities. It's a little ridiculous how harsh people can be. It's nice of and more important that sundance talked to us rather than yelling at someone to edit the vods.
I've watched many MLG's (with the HD ticket) before they even picked up SC2, and I am usually very happy with a typical MLG weekend. It was unfortunate that they had issues this bad in Dallas, but I am very confident they will return to great form for Columbus. Sundance seems very passionate which is great to see.
It WOULD be nice for them to be able to produce a higher resolution for the HD stream though, as the few times it did work this weekend wasn't very "HD"
Although I was appalled with the service as much as anyone else I applaud the way it is being handled now. I sincerely hope that they back up their promises at the next MLG. I'm optimistic and thankful for the honestly none the less.
It was the right and only thing to do after the failure. Tank you Sundance for the response. This guy is committed to Esports. Anyone who says otherwise can go eat a Baneling.
PS: Columbus will prolly be your biggest test because EVERY laggspike on that stream will be a spark for the forums...
On April 05 2011 13:02 NoobSkills wrote: He writes all that. Then restreams the delayed weekend in a non-edited format.
Perhaps they need someone to sit back not be involved with planning and just think of what could go wrong at any time based off what they're doing. Then take that list and determine what is most useful to avoid and go off that.
Last thing before go to bed for real - to edit the stream would take too much time. It's either the stream with delays or go dark. After all the issues we decided that something was better than nothing.
Will also be bundling up all the replays as soon as we are able to.
To cut vods out of what you have would take too much time? Even if the Vods came out late I know there are enough people who like Wheat,9,and JP that will watch them. Also it isn't like the next MLG is next week. Though again on a priority level if instead you're using your time to fix the next MLG, so it doesn't have stream issues that would probably work as well.
OFC that isn't the only issue, but #1. Either way I did enjoy 2/3 MLG's from last year I just hope we can bump the percentage this year.
Just split the playing area and the casting area into two different halls. Nobody needs to see the players when the splay. Interaction with casters and seeing a fair, non-spoiled game is much more important. Also you can stream a lot more game as if there is a delay the casters can just jump into another game which is played at the moment, because there are no problems with sound proofing anymore. Good luck doing your next MLG. Let's see if you really make some good changes. Edit: Of course people there could still watch the players play, in a different hall though.
disappointing that it didnt work out well i really hope the next MLG is more successful. The games were entertaining so once the kinks are worked out MLG should be great :D
Not going to lie, the crashing stream sucked, BUT it is good to see Sundance writing up an apology like this, providing some insight into the situation and taking full responsibility. My respect for MLG just went up a lot after taking a nose-dive after the stream problems.
On the other hand its kind of bittersweet that the stream crashed but from too many viewers, so its not all bad.
I was extremely frustrated and angry about the way things turned out and was not planning on tuning into another MLG, but based on the way Sundance handled things I will continue buying tickets and tuning in for MLG. MLG seems to always take advice and try to improve so mistakes dont happen again, i can respect that and the way this was handled.
I suggest a soundbooth for the main stage. I've heard complaints from spectators at the LAN not being able to hear the casters clearly at times because they don't want the players to overhear what they are commentating on. Just what I heard.
On April 05 2011 12:55 MLG_Sundance wrote: I wanted to quickly post to let all of you know that we will be working to not only give you a stable stream in Cbus but a better broadcast experience as well (fewer delays, more matches, more interviews and a proper closing ceremony).
I know that many of you have no faith in us but I just want you all to know that we are committed to this for the long haul.
Please keep the suggestions coming. Although we can't do everything it's helpful to hear constructive criticism.
-sd
(edit)
Yes game audio and casters for the crowd will also be looked into.
It's been a long and rough weekend - I'm not running at 100% capacity.
And with that you have bought yourself another shot at getting this to work!
Good luck with the next event, i wish you all the best!
But seriously though, good to hear they're committed to putting on a better show next time, even if all the issues weren't their fault, it's good to know MLG is responsible enough to own up to mistakes and be up front with people. Should be a good rest of the year.
MLG is growing at an extremely quick rate, especially now that they have introduced SC2 to the Pro Circuit. I enjoyed the stream last year, watching Halo 3, and I can notice that MLG has taken a huge step in the right direction in just the time from the 2010 National Championship, up until MLG Dallas 2011. I do agree, that their were quite a few issues, but it is to be expected as so much has changed for the company. If anyone else has been following MLG before SC2, they will also know that every event, MLG introduces something brand new, with more than a single problem, but everything is smoothed out in the next event.
MLG is a company that really cares about it's community, they admit when they mess up and are always transparent about what they do, i've been following mlg much before starcraft was a game on the circuit and if previous experiences hold true here, the columbus stream will be flawless, I have all the faith in the world in MLG.
What about the quality of the stream in Columbus? Because even if Dallas didn't have any delays I still wouldn't have purchased a new hq ticket because the quality was horrible. In this era of technology you couldn't really pass that stream off as HQ.
After your tweets and responses I really want to give mlg a second chance. Can't wait for colombus.
On April 05 2011 12:55 MLG_Sundance wrote: (fewer delays, more matches, more interviews and a proper closing ceremony).
It seems like there is not much feedback required. Changing these things would be awesome. I think some of them were related to the bigger problems. So one led to the other in Dallas.
I hope you don't experience that technical difficulties as in Dallas ever again. But I'd also love to see you do some sort of tests before the events to eliminate the possibility of something like last weekend could happen again. I mean to check out the local ISP, packet losses and whatever happened over there in Dallas.
I am glad sundance is responding in a prompt and professional way. The decisions that were made seem just and correct. I hope for a great mlg future and to see great games. Though i did purchase a HQ stream this mlg i will probably opt for the columbus one also because i believe in e-sports and want to support it in anyway. It is good knowing that mlg will continue to work towards correcting their issues and create a pleasent and memorable viewing experience for both the spectators and broadcasters. Long live e-sports
Haha. CEO writes one sorry letter, and everything's okay again. If that's how you feel, that's how you feel.
I have to admit I feel almost the same way. Yes, I certainly appreciated the admission, apology, and promise to improve. That is much better than alternatives (such as pretending it didn't happen), and I sincerely hope MLG does well. However, I'm still very annoyed with the service that was provided, and we've been through this cycle of promise before (albeit to a lesser extent). I'm just not convinced that MLG will "bring it" with this next event, and I feel that the optimism in this thread is a little over warranted for similar reasons. If the next MLG event is awesome, or hell, even adequate (i.e no major issues), I will gladly eat my own words with gusto.
He's helping the scene too much to hold a grudge over a single poor performance. i'm guessing that the old bw players have far more respect and optimism for companies aiding the scene.
A professional response is the way this should be handled and its appreciated. i hope you can look into the various issues and cant wait for next time
I'm a little bit sad that his excuse didn't include their bad streaming schedule... ofc there were streaming issues, and maybe they were underprepared, but i find it much worse that they didnt cast games like idra vs tlo, and tlo vs incontrol... and i don't think they realised how bad that was ... i mean they had 3 casters who could switch around so that everyone of them had a diner pause , but they didn't , instead they made a 50 minute break and everyone at home could see the audience watching the nice games ...
Ofc the stream issues did dissapoint but i'm not sure if they are aware of the fact, that this wasn't the worst thing about MLG Dallas
On April 05 2011 19:50 Skaya wrote: I've a lot of respect for the people behind MLG. not many corporations out there would take responsibility for their failures.
+1 MLG, i'm still a fan even with $10 gone.
this
and actually they are not gone, I believe that columbus will be so much better if they stand to their promises ( less breaks, more matches, better stream...etc)
People shouldn't have been bitching so hard in the first place. It's not ideal but some of the hate this guy was getting was just unreal. At the end of the day you lost a measly $10 that you can easily redeem at a later date and missed some games that you can easily re-watch on their site, boo hoo.
dont want to keep throwing shit at them or something, but I can guarantee you that If you give me 1000 bucks Ill have it done in 2-3, 4 days max, and Im not a pro. editor by any means, but its just copy and paste (and cut)...
On April 05 2011 20:22 Matkap wrote: editing the vods takes woo much time...eh what?
dont want to keep throwing shit at them or something, but I can guarantee you that If you give me 1000 bucks Ill have it done in 2-3, 4 days max, and Im not a pro. editor by any means, but its just copy and paste (and cut)...
Most games weren't cast/recorded at all, so for 90% of games there are only replays. Wait a few days and the usual suspects will start casting games from MLG and vods will be up on youtube before you know it. Fingers crossed for the 2nd meeting between TLO and InControl to appear asap, from the tweets some of those games sounded epic.
What is the chance of a person so in love with sc2 that they visit TL.net not watching an MLG event?
It doesnt matter how awful their production is - we still sat there through it all, and were still watching on Sunday night.
Apologies are necessary, but it is not this community that need to be placated - we will be watching every event even if they repeatedly are like Dallas 2011.
On April 05 2011 20:59 resilve wrote: Apologies are necessary, but it is not this community that need to be placated - we will be watching every event even if they repeatedly are like Dallas 2011.
I love SC2 but will not be wasting time like that again. Just going to wait for replays + commentary VODs unless the comments are really damn positive.
The fact that Sundance not only apologized on Twitter, Stream and an open letter BUT also posts on TL, makes me hopeful that this will work out for their next event.
Especially considering that they are getting a new tech department, or at least are looking at their current possibilities and will get more qualified persons.
On April 05 2011 20:22 Matkap wrote: editing the vods takes woo much time...eh what?
dont want to keep throwing shit at them or something, but I can guarantee you that If you give me 1000 bucks Ill have it done in 2-3, 4 days max, and Im not a pro. editor by any means, but its just copy and paste (and cut)...
Most games weren't cast/recorded at all, so for 90% of games there are only replays. Wait a few days and the usual suspects will start casting games from MLG and vods will be up on youtube before you know it. Fingers crossed for the 2nd meeting between TLO and InControl to appear asap, from the tweets some of those games sounded epic.
I was talking about this
On April 05 2011 13:04 MLG_Sundance wrote:
Last thing before go to bed for real - to edit the stream would take too much time. It's either the stream with delays or go dark. After all the issues we decided that something was better than nothing.
Will also be bundling up all the replays as soon as we are able to.
On April 05 2011 10:56 Jiddra wrote: @MLG_Sundance Sundance DiGiovanni @anepicname Site saw just under a million uniques during the event. Will be releasing final numbers once we get a full picture.
Translating from marketing speach to normal is easy... Just delete one ZERO. So
@anepicname Site saw just under 100k uniques during the event. Will wont release final numbers cause it could be bad for us.
On April 05 2011 12:55 MLG_Sundance wrote: I wanted to quickly post to let all of you know that we will be working to not only give you a stable stream in Cbus but a better broadcast experience as well (fewer delays, more matches, more interviews and a proper closing ceremony).
I know that many of you have no faith in us but I just want you all to know that we are committed to this for the long haul.
Please keep the suggestions coming. Although we can't do everything it's helpful to hear constructive criticism.
-sd
(edit)
Yes game audio and casters for the crowd will also be looked into.
It's been a long and rough weekend - I'm not running at 100% capacity.
Thanks for the post. I'm sure Columbus will be sick. Looking forward to it and thanks for working hard for eSports.
On April 05 2011 20:59 resilve wrote: What is the chance of a person so in love with sc2 that they visit TL.net not watching an MLG event?
It doesnt matter how awful their production is - we still sat there through it all, and were still watching on Sunday night.
Apologies are necessary, but it is not this community that need to be placated - we will be watching every event even if they repeatedly are like Dallas 2011.
Nope, It was true a year ago, but now there is so much SC2 going on that people needs to start choosing. With a MLG Dallas happening again, people will not be following it live. Hell, a big number of people watching live this weekend did it directly from the stream feed to be able to watch anything and by that bypassed the commercials, so the sponsors would not be so impressed in the end.
Over the weekend they had almost 1 million uniqe visitors on the site, that is more people then the hardcore SC2 base. GOM promoted this event, I don't think they will continue to do that if it fails and fails every time. Sony Ericsson has already promoted SC2 with GOMtv, they have know how within the company of what to demand and what kind of promotion they should get for a dollar. Big international companys do not promote stuff for fun.
MLG needs to get peoples trust back, otherwise it is going to slowly die in the eyes of the international SC2 audience. MLG has even made a deal to try to sell the production/concept in europe, that will be a major fail if they keep on doing it like this when others do it so much better. It will be hard enough with the competion they are facing from much stronger esport brands in europe, like Dreamhack and IEM/ESL.
On April 05 2011 10:56 Jiddra wrote: @MLG_Sundance Sundance DiGiovanni @anepicname Site saw just under a million uniques during the event. Will be releasing final numbers once we get a full picture.
Translating from marketing speach to normal is easy... Just delete one ZERO. So
On April 05 2011 10:56 Jiddra wrote: @MLG_Sundance Sundance DiGiovanni @anepicname Site saw just under a million uniques during the event. Will be releasing final numbers once we get a full picture.
Translating from marketing speach to normal is easy... Just delete one ZERO. So
@anepicname Site saw just under 100k uniques during the event. Will wont release final numbers cause it could be bad for us.
You mean he hyped the figure with 900 000, or am I missing something here?
If there is one thing we have established from this its that Sundance is a pretty honest guy and would be unlikely to lie about this.
On April 05 2011 10:56 Jiddra wrote: @MLG_Sundance Sundance DiGiovanni @anepicname Site saw just under a million uniques during the event. Will be releasing final numbers once we get a full picture.
Translating from marketing speach to normal is easy... Just delete one ZERO. So
@anepicname Site saw just under 100k uniques during the event. Will wont release final numbers cause it could be bad for us.
You mean he hyped the figure with 900 000, or am I missing something here?
If there is one thing we have established from this its that Sundance is a pretty honest guy and would be unlikely to lie about this.
It would also be a HUGE risk to lie to the sponsors like that.
On April 05 2011 10:56 Jiddra wrote: @MLG_Sundance Sundance DiGiovanni @anepicname Site saw just under a million uniques during the event. Will be releasing final numbers once we get a full picture.
Translating from marketing speach to normal is easy... Just delete one ZERO. So
@anepicname Site saw just under 100k uniques during the event. Will wont release final numbers cause it could be bad for us.
You mean he hyped the figure with 900 000, or am I missing something here?
If there is one thing we have established from this its that Sundance is a pretty honest guy and would be unlikely to lie about this.
It would also be a HUGE risk to lie to the sponsors like that.
And the sponsors would be given figures anyway, so the lie wouldn't be alive for long.
On April 05 2011 12:55 MLG_Sundance wrote: I wanted to quickly post to let all of you know that we will be working to not only give you a stable stream in Cbus but a better broadcast experience as well (fewer delays, more matches, more interviews and a proper closing ceremony).
I know that many of you have no faith in us but I just want you all to know that we are committed to this for the long haul.
Please keep the suggestions coming. Although we can't do everything it's helpful to hear constructive criticism.
-sd
(edit)
Yes game audio and casters for the crowd will also be looked into.
It's been a long and rough weekend - I'm not running at 100% capacity.
Live and learn, with double the expected traffic there really aren't any clutch changes you can make to boost the experience. it's too late but that happens. I look forward to the next one and the VOD's it is going to be awesome! Great event.
It's unfortunate that the MLG went the way it went, but i'm sure they learned they lesson and it will only make them better. I really enjoyed the parts of stream when it actually worked so i have high hopes for the future of MLG. Only wish i could have see it IRL
MLG stream was pretty bad, but i dont expect every esports stream to be perfect. Its 100% digital content. Streaming a computer game over the internet. (and i mean streaming many instances of the game to close to a million people. not just like one person streaming on their free time, this was crazy huge :O)
Of course problems are going to happen, and this is one of those times.
Yeah it was bad but im sure after this Sundance is going to make sure that nothing of this scale happens again. And if it does, then its definately a problem with MLG and their staff.
Maybe smaller problems will happen at cbus, but i doubt anything this bad will happen ever again at mlg.
I, for one, am excited to watch the next MLG, and even though this one was disappointing, it was still fun watching the matches i was able to watch.
And im actually glad to see someone inside the company (sundance) actually respond to the customer complaints publicly. Sign of a good organization.
I would question how MLG experienced "double the traffic expected" based on this screen shot below.
As you can see, the first large blip was MLG Raleigh, followed by DC and Dallas during the 2010 circuit. Then, the red line is for the new website url majorleaguegaming.com is starting to get cut off, but not greatly larger than MLG Raleigh. How this was "double the traffic expected" I'm confused about.
On April 05 2011 12:55 MLG_Sundance wrote: I wanted to quickly post to let all of you know that we will be working to not only give you a stable stream in Cbus but a better broadcast experience as well (fewer delays, more matches, more interviews and a proper closing ceremony).
I know that many of you have no faith in us but I just want you all to know that we are committed to this for the long haul.
Please keep the suggestions coming. Although we can't do everything it's helpful to hear constructive criticism.
-sd
(edit)
Yes game audio and casters for the crowd will also be looked into.
It's been a long and rough weekend - I'm not running at 100% capacity.
I'm wishing you as much good luck as you need. I'll be your #1 groupie if you pull it off for Columbus.
On April 05 2011 20:22 Matkap wrote: editing the vods takes woo much time...eh what?
dont want to keep throwing shit at them or something, but I can guarantee you that If you give me 1000 bucks Ill have it done in 2-3, 4 days max, and Im not a pro. editor by any means, but its just copy and paste (and cut)...
Most games weren't cast/recorded at all, so for 90% of games there are only replays. Wait a few days and the usual suspects will start casting games from MLG and vods will be up on youtube before you know it. Fingers crossed for the 2nd meeting between TLO and InControl to appear asap, from the tweets some of those games sounded epic.
Last thing before go to bed for real - to edit the stream would take too much time. It's either the stream with delays or go dark. After all the issues we decided that something was better than nothing.
Will also be bundling up all the replays as soon as we are able to.
On April 05 2011 12:55 MLG_Sundance wrote: I wanted to quickly post to let all of you know that we will be working to not only give you a stable stream in Cbus but a better broadcast experience as well (fewer delays, more matches, more interviews and a proper closing ceremony).
I know that many of you have no faith in us but I just want you all to know that we are committed to this for the long haul.
Please keep the suggestions coming. Although we can't do everything it's helpful to hear constructive criticism.
-sd
(edit)
Yes game audio and casters for the crowd will also be looked into.
It's been a long and rough weekend - I'm not running at 100% capacity.
I'm just happy that MLG has had, for lack of a better term, the balls to man up and apologize for everything repeatedly even in the face of heated criticism. I'm no longer a MLG fan, but they've certainly done well enough that I'm open to coming back into the fold pending future success. If the next MLG event isn't good, well, I'm just not sure if I can give them more chances.
Great that he apologized and is making good PR moves but actions speak louder than words. Starting the next MLG on time on day 1 and with very limited dead air would be a real statement and influence my decision to pay for MLG or not much more than anything he can say. There is a silver lining to the cloud in that this was a wake-up call and may get MLG to fix some of the problems they have had for years so they never again even come close to flirting with a situation like this.
On April 06 2011 05:28 lightrise wrote: Does anyone see where you can watch the restreams yet? I cant find it anywhere on mlgtv just the opening ceremony but no games
On April 05 2011 12:55 MLG_Sundance wrote: I wanted to quickly post to let all of you know that we will be working to not only give you a stable stream in Cbus but a better broadcast experience as well (fewer delays, more matches, more interviews and a proper closing ceremony).
I know that many of you have no faith in us but I just want you all to know that we are committed to this for the long haul.
Please keep the suggestions coming. Although we can't do everything it's helpful to hear constructive criticism.
-sd
(edit)
Yes game audio and casters for the crowd will also be looked into.
It's been a long and rough weekend - I'm not running at 100% capacity.
I have faith you guys will learn from the mistakes of this last MLG and deliver on a proper SC2 competition for us spectators. Best of luck, looking forward to see the improvements in the next MLG.
The very first thing MLG should change (after getting the stream stable and making sure players cannot hear commentators) is clearly:
Increasing the Premium Stream Quality!
I really have to say I was SO sad when I saw that the quality was exactly the same like last season.. I mean perhaps the quality was okay last season but now? Every single Streamer on TL has 5 times better quality..and yeah i know it may be harder for you but you know what? GSL just increased their stream quality and they stream from korea...
Nobody cares about the Free Stream quality..it's obviously bad and thats okay But when I spend 10$ to see like 5 Matchups every day for 3 days i expect to see a clear visual difference between the two streams...
Correct me if there I am wrong, but it sounds like MLG was handling all traffic for the stream in Dallas.
If this was the case, then I'd ask why wouldn't they want to partner with Justin.tv to handle all worldwide incoming requests for the stream? MLG would only worry about the connection between the observing client in the venue and Justin.tv's servers and also to Bnet.
It might make it easier to guarantee a consistent experience for fans and players, and it seems outside of their business's core competency.
On April 06 2011 06:30 TheAmpersand wrote: Correct me if there I am wrong, but it sounds like MLG was handling all traffic for the stream in Dallas.
Na, you're wrong. But right in that it would indeed be silly if they handled it themselves, more even if on site.
When there was a stream(sadly), it was delievered through Akamai on my end. Which should even dwarf justin.tv in capacity. So it would be safe to assume any problems occured before the data even got to the cdn (Of course the surrounding mlg website could have had issues, but the video delivery shouldn't have been a problem).
Despite all the hickups and all the stuff that went wrong, glad to see MLG taking steps in the right direction. Also having the stream crash due to unexpected too much ppl tuning in, guess thats a "good" problem for MLG.
Started following MLG 2 years ago because of Gears of War, and now because of SC2/Halo Reach, and i must say most of all the MLG events ive seen these last 2 years were pretty awsome, so im not pissed of what happened. Hope MLG keeps up the good work they been making so far.
Na, you're wrong. But right in that it would indeed be silly if they handled it themselves, more even if on site.
When there was a stream(sadly), it was delievered through Akamai on my end. Which should even dwarf justin.tv in capacity. So it would be safe to assume any problems occured before the data even got to the cdn (Of course the surrounding mlg website could have had issues, but the video delivery shouldn't have been a problem).
Yah, you're right on.
Sundance mentioned in the official explanation that it was the site that went down on Friday, and Saturday and Sunday were both on-site issues. I think later on the MLG twitter feed they mentioned there were some issues with the Dallas ISP, which would be somewhat strange, and troubling for future tournaments.
While there are a lot of stuff that I certainly dont know about, I believe MLG :
1. Fell victim to the ( prolly exponantial ) growth of the SC2 Tournament Scene.
-I believe we all know how fast the tournament scene is growing, and it wont slow down anytime soon... After this weekend, I think its lessons learned already
2. Missed some design choices :
-Soundproof booths : I'm sorry, but not having those for feature matches is a pretty big fail... Possible soution : Borrow blizzard's booths they use for blizzcon for the time being ?
3. Didn't have a complete contingency plan
-For those not in the IT buisness :
A contingency plan is a document that explains the rôle of each person ( from the lowly tech to the CEO ) in case of major issues, no matter if its something that is in their control or not.
When a major issue happens a designated coordinator can quickly use that plan to quickly assign ressources to their specific tasks in order to fix the issue or reducing its impact to the event with the less impact possible to the "clients" ( players, spectators, and stream watchers ).
Building such a document also helps finding out requirements that were missed during the initial planning of the infrastructure therefore preventing problems during the event.
Redaction of such plans requires a whole lot of work ( including extensive testing of all assets ), but its upside is worth it and saves alot of time, money, and reputation when it is actually needed. ( Especially considering internet viewers are known to not be very patient... ) Such plans can be made for almost everything ( network, tournament management, safety, etc. )
I dont know if MLG have such documents for all its critical assets, but considering the delays, I believe it didnt cover enough issues. I believe that needs to be fixed
Also , from what I heard and saw on the stream, I could guess that some of the staff had to improvise for minor issues ( like a certain left-handed mouse for example... ) and caused delays that was unnecessarily way too long. I belive this will have to be fixed on a organisationnal level
Anyway, I hope you guys will be able to get all that fixed for good in time for the rest of the season
Kudos :
*Kudos to day9, DJWheat and JP for their absolutely epic efforts to entertain during the delays. You guys rock !
*Kudos to Sundance and all the staff that had to handle the public relations this weekend.
*Kudos to the community present at the event for having the drive to stay and watch despite the issues
After listening to State of the Game this week and reading what Sundance had to say, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't watch any more of their events. From what I (and others) have gathered, the problems that have surfaced can be fixed or at least partially amended. When the stream was up, I was having a great time, all that needs to happen is some more planning for the worst possible scenario and time inspecting the venue a bit more thoroughly.
I think the tournament system could be better with some easy changes:
Having Groups for the seeds is a good idea and as you said, makes for entertaining games from the first day on. Thats true and nice.
The problem i see with is, that due to the "strong" influence of the group rankings AND extended Series the later stages of the tournament have a high chance of getting "boring". If 2 people from the same group ater in the tournament meet again, which is very likely, extended series "destroys" the series. Seeing someone win after he's 0-2 behind per default is exciting... Seeing someone just take a BO 5 with one win is not.
Solution: Group stage result should not translate into the actual tournament. Use the groupes ONLY for putting the Seeds in the tournament but "delete" their record there after. This would make the End-Stages of the tournament way more exciting (stuff like Incontrol being 0-2 up against TLO is just "wrong"). For some reason MLG likes extended series, which while being fair is probably the by spectators most hated "invention" ever. It's "kinda" ok in a double elimination tournament, but the way it is handled right now it just puts the Group Winners too far ahead of the other seeds and makes for less exciting "final" games.
Changes i would like: Make the seeds a little weaker, just put the Group 1/2/3/4 a little further "back" in the tournament. The amount of games a group winner needs to play is just way to small (after the groups). The Seeds are your star players, people want to see the seeds play when it counts. Groups are nice, but not half as exciting as the games in the actual Winner/Loser-Bracket.
Besides the technical utter **** up, the biggest problem in my eyes was that most "important" match ups weren't ever casted and not even meant to be casted.
I want to be able to see all/most matches and without VODs I'll NEVER pay for a mlg pass, thankfully I didn't for dallas...
The very first thing MLG should change (after getting the stream stable and making sure players cannot hear commentators) is clearly:
Increasing the Premium Stream Quality!
I really have to say I was SO sad when I saw that the quality was exactly the same like last season.. I mean perhaps the quality was okay last season but now? Every single Streamer on TL has 5 times better quality..and yeah i know it may be harder for you but you know what? GSL just increased their stream quality and they stream from korea...
Nobody cares about the Free Stream quality..it's obviously bad and thats okay But when I spend 10$ to see like 5 Matchups every day for 3 days i expect to see a clear visual difference between the two streams...
I'd say the most important thing is to get a single flawless stream running before caring about how high the resolution of the HQ one is...
First Issue, At the live event, there was no Commentary... they just used the game sounds and music for which half the time were masked by the Halo game next to us with their louder speakers. In between fights they would show djWheat and Day9 where they would talk a bit about the game, but the event people would forget to turn their volume back on, or Halo would drown their voices. I believe on one of the semi final games, it had no sounds for half the match. I was excited to go see djWheat and Day9 and listen to them cast, but they were hidden in the back somewhere muted to everyone there.
2nd Issue, the Champion Pool Play. Its a great idea, but even if those people don't perform, they still place well. I don't want to point anyone out, but there were a few people who went 1-5 during the whole event, yet they placed between 19-24. I understand that the people they played are vary good, but that still seems wrong when you consider how hard it is for anyone else to get in. In 1 case, someone went 0-4 in the pool, yet beat 1 person in the losers group, and he is still seeded in top 20 to make it to the next pool. I watched several players beat equally stronger opponents more times, yet get placed far lower. I am not denying their skill by any means, everyone in the pool is great, but people who have an off day or something i believe should be punished hard like everyone else. Perhaps they need to combine the pool sooner in the tournament. If a person from pool does not win a single game, the lowest they can be placed was 24th. Maybe they should increase that to 64 or whatever.
3rd and last issue is with the Extended series. The only time I think it is appropriate is for the finals. Where the Winners bracket plays the losers bracket. The winner should start with an advantage, and the needing to win 2x last season is a bit harsh. But when you see 2 people in the losers bracket playing each other yet someone starts with an advantage, I don't see that justified to well.
I don't mean to offend anyone, like I said, I respect everyones talent that made it to the pool play. I am mainly trying to understand why things were done this way. Perhaps they may read this and at least listen to my points. I did have fun at the event, I even got to eat lunch with my favorite pro-gamer, but because of my first issue, I will not attend another MLG event. Next time ill save myself money and just get the HD pass instead.
EPT
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