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The purpose of this thread is to find the best way to stack air units and use them stacked.
The way that can be used in high level games by high level players.
I'm going to expand the OP over time. For now I want write about what I have discovered.
I think I've found the way to stack air units in SC2 and it's not that different from the way it's done in BW.
Why stacking air units is always good?
Putting aside Thors, Storm, Seeker Missiles and Fungal. Scout people!
People who know it from BW can skip this.
- It allows to make them more efficient in what they are doing.
They can deal better damage and bypass defenses better, and because of that pose a grater threat.
Posing a threat is sometimes main or the only way they can deal damage - by forcing defender to spend resources on defenses. Or for example forcing Terran to stim his Marines only to see the harassing air units flee instead of engaging.
If holes in the opponents vision can be created then it can also be used to launch surprise drops. However large numbers of clumped transports may not unload all of the ground units so once that happens, ordering them to drop again not far away is advised.
It can also be used to outmicro a player with a bigger number of the same air units (for example Mutalisks or Vikings).
- They can take less damage themselves and spread it out over more units. Less of them may die and each unit that doesn't die deals damage.
Which means it's always better to have a damaged unit instead of a dead one.
What's more, all of the 3 races can use something to save their damaged units:
Protoss have the shield regeneration which means, over time, damage not dealt to the armor hit points can be the same as damage not dealt at all.
Zerg have Queens with the Transfusion spell and recently Day[9] has shown how much underused they are
Terran can repair their units that many times faster than making new ones, as many SCVs and Mules are repairing. And only for 1/4 of the cost of making the new unit, Medivacs being the only exception?
- If less of them can do what more, non stacked of them can do, then more resources can be spent on something else.
- It adds another layer of skill required to win in this game, while it doesn't break the game at lower levels because
- it's not easy
- all of the air units can overkill (not sure about BCs and Interceptors) so clumping them too much makes them less efficient.
This can also be an answer to calling this "not natural" and after so many "Viking flowers" it's too late anyway.
- I believe that concern about Thors shown in this thread means there is a lot of people who will avoid stacking their air units at all costs, whether opponent has Thors (or other means necessary to deal with stacked air units) or not
The mechanic - THE 2 WAYS TO STACK AIR UNITS IN SC2
On February 17 2011 10:57 Keitzer wrote:
and the number of units doesn't (or doesn't seem to) affect the way the magic box is formed...
i've stacked everything from 2 to 200 mutas / voids / vikings with ease... all you do is click inside the "box"
What I'm writing about requires less clicking.
It's not that different from the rules of BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Magic_box.
Air units, to quote BW Liquipedia: "must be grouped with a unit a sufficient distance away, which triggers the magic box to activate".
What is different is:
- the unit must be in a state that allows it to move.
It can't be a building, a larva or a Siege Tank in Siege Mode.
If burrowed, it can only be an Infestor or Roach with Tunneling Claws upgrade researched.
- Air units will always attempt to spread after about a second they were given an order.
This means about one additional right click per second to keep them stacked but doesn't mean spamming right clicks "at their feet" to keep them stacked.
Really, it's much easier than most people probably think.
Additionally, when on the move units attempt to spread only in directions perpendicular to the one they are moving.
Another easy way to stack air units I would call non combat and "initial" to the one above is having one of them on a separate hotkey, ordering only it to move and ordering the rest to follow it.
It can allow to have them close to each other with less clicks needed when moving them on longer distances. It also causes them to de-stack slower when they aren't moving.
In case of Banshees, it causes them to de-stack very, very slowly.
This is "on the move" equivalent to keeping them stacked with Patrol.
A thing that allows them to "dance" better is when turning them back in about ~165 degrees, they change direction nearly instantly and don't make a turns that in BW required
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Mutalisk_vs_Scourge_Control#Method_2_:_The_Chinese_Triangle_Method
to be used. This is extremely helpful because all of the air units need to stop before attacking, which means they take additional fire from units that outrange them.
Speed of de-stacking depends on the speed of a unit. Phoenixes and Mutas require the most clicks.
What also needs to be pointed out is keeping air units stacked becomes easier the more of them you have because...
The problem - HOW TO SOLVE THE OVERKILL?
This is where your brainstorming comes in. Units stacked too much terribly overkill.
When engaging with larger numbers of units it's actually better to do it without the additional unit that triggers the magic box.
My initial idea is to have the units in two control groups - one with the additional unit that causes the magic box to trigger and one without it.
And to switch between them right before engaging, to allow them to de-stack more.
Doing this requires a lot of trial and error play in unit testers to know when to switch between the groups (or Shift deselect that additional unit).
It's 2:30 AM so with work tomorrow I am going to sleep but I will update this with screenshots, numbers of air units that cause the magic box to trigger because there are too many to stay within it's boundaries and ways to deal with the clumped units.
Did you know it takes 5 storms to kill a moving Muta, 4 to kill Medivacs, Banshees and Vikings and 7 to kill a moving Corruptor?
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My technique to stack air units is to:
Right click them to move somewhere,
Hold shift and press P,
Right click very near the first right click.
This gets them stacked up nicely, its what i usually do with my vikings in TvT
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"I support this thread." -thor
edit: beaten, should stop opening so many tabs lol 
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Not very useful in SC2.
Theres no need for it.
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On February 17 2011 10:44 elmizzt wrote:"I support this thread." -thor edit: beaten, should stop opening so many tabs lol
Scout before attacking. It's that simple.
On February 17 2011 10:47 ThatsNoMoon wrote:
Not very useful in SC2.
Theres no need for it.
Why?
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In case you don't know, stacking air units don't actually fire at the exact same time. Blizzard confirmed that there is a slight delay (like 1/10th of a second) if you are firing a bunch of air units. This makes sc2 stacked air units slightly less powerful than bw stacked units. I'll try to find the source.
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Thors vaporize any stacked air unit
mass thors own mass voidray because it is sooo hard to NOT stack the voidrays while attacking
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Stacking air units is also really really bad against Seeker Missiles from Ravens
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and the number of units doesn't (or doesn't seem to) affect the way the magic box is formed...
i've stacked everything from 2 to 200 mutas / voids / vikings with ease... all you do is click inside the "box"
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On February 17 2011 10:55 TehForce wrote:
Thors vaporize any stacked air unit
mass thors own mass voidray because it is sooo hard to NOT stack the voidrays while attacking I so found this out the hard way. I got a stargate I scouted the armory, , made void rays, did some probe harass with phoenices, the guy didn't attack, I thought he was going to thor rush, made more void rays because I scouted his sick amount of thors with an observer. I had a looot of void rays and was on 4 base versus his 2 base, he was so passive, I was like 'No need to attack, I'm on more bases and my army counters his, just play it out passively and I'll win.'
not, he walked over me, I had no idea how it could happen, I he had mass thors and some marines and marauders, I thought my army comp would beat his and I had more bases, but not really (We were both maxed I'd reckon).
Watching the reply I realized just how much my void rays stacked against the splash. Should have just kited him with colossi really...
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On February 17 2011 10:49 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 10:44 elmizzt wrote:"I support this thread." -thor edit: beaten, should stop opening so many tabs lol Scout before attacking. It's that simple. Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 10:47 ThatsNoMoon wrote:
Not very useful in SC2.
Theres no need for it. Why?
but you said stacking units is ALWAYS good.
maybe you mean MOST of the time lol.
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On February 17 2011 11:01 PhiliBiRD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 10:49 beetlelisk wrote:On February 17 2011 10:44 elmizzt wrote:"I support this thread." -thor edit: beaten, should stop opening so many tabs lol Scout before attacking. It's that simple. On February 17 2011 10:47 ThatsNoMoon wrote:
Not very useful in SC2.
Theres no need for it. Why? but you said stacking units is ALWAYS good. maybe you mean MOST of the time lol.
Ya, thanks my OP wasn't idiot proof enough.
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Are you sure that the BW magic box applies to stacking in SC2? From what I've seen and played, grouping another unit with flyers does not affect stacking in any way in SC2. The SC2 "magic box" is mostly used to allow for muta spread against Thors, unlike in BW where it was used to stack mutas.
Otherwise, I think flyer stacking really depends on the situation and the opponent's unit composition. If the opponent doesn't have Thors, archons, Templar, or infestors, then I think it may be very favorable to stack flyers as a method of making micro much less clumsy. It's much easier to dart in and out to pick off units and buildings with stacked flyers compared to a spread out cloud.
Also, I do recall that the Viking flower was mainly devised as a way of hiding true Viking numbers so that the opponent becomes more likely to engage unfavorably with an inferior Viking count. Also, Viking flowers are usually guaranteed to pick off at least one opposing Viking.
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On February 17 2011 10:55 TehForce wrote:
Thors vaporize any stacked air unit
mass thors own mass voidray because it is sooo hard to NOT stack the voidrays while attacking
ain't missile turrets also do aoe damage? -.-
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edit: lol I was so sleepy I slightly misread your post. Time to edit.
On February 17 2011 11:06 eviltomahawk wrote:
Are you sure that the BW magic box applies to stacking in SC2?
Yes
From what I've seen and played, grouping another unit with flyers does not affect stacking in any way in SC2. The SC2 "magic box" is mostly used to allow for muta spread against Thors, unlike in BW where it was used to stack mutas.
so far it was only that way because no one knew how to micro them properly
Otherwise, I think flyer stacking really depends on the situation and the opponent's unit composition. If the opponent doesn't have Thors, archons, Templar, or infestors, then I think it may be very favorable to stack flyers as a method of making micro much less clumsy. It's much easier to dart in and out to pick off units and buildings with stacked flyers compared to a spread out cloud.
Exactly but even if he does all that is needed is to avoid them and / or move the flyers spread out.
Even though all fighter units automaticly switch to higher threat targets, some of them shoot slowly enough to, for example in ZvT, send in first an Overlord with speed or a Corruptor to tank the first volley of shots while Mutas stay behind and out of Thor's range.
Storm isn't as scary as it was in BW and even there, at some point Protoss had a huge trouble when dealing with Mutas. In SC2 it deals less damage and because it's a 3D game, the Storm needs to be properly placed to deal damage.
In tests It took me 5 full Storms to kill a moving Mutalisks. By full I mean I was placing them in a way that the moving Muta would stay in it for as long as possible.
Imagine people dodging Storms and keeping their flyers on a few hotkeys to spread them ASAP once they (feel they will) get hit by one.
Something similar can be used against Infestors I think.
Also, I do recall that the Viking flower was mainly devised as a way of hiding true Viking numbers so that the opponent becomes more likely to engage unfavorably with an inferior Viking count. Also, Viking flowers are usually guaranteed to pick off at least one opposing Viking.
There are at least 2 ways to nullify a Viking stack - Point Defense Drone and cloaking a Banshee as Vikings fire and a Banshee would be a great bait to make those Vikings move.
I think Thors too are sometimes used to hit the stacked Vikings and to tank.
But before all of that, it takes only 5 Vikings to one shot a Viking, 6 to one shot a Medivac.
Poking someone's base may occur before Viking flowers start to matter.
On February 17 2011 11:07 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 10:55 TehForce wrote:
Thors vaporize any stacked air unit
mass thors own mass voidray because it is sooo hard to NOT stack the voidrays while attacking ain't missile turrets also do aoe damage? -.-
Only in campaign. And maybe UMS games.
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On February 17 2011 11:07 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 10:55 TehForce wrote:
Thors vaporize any stacked air unit
mass thors own mass voidray because it is sooo hard to NOT stack the voidrays while attacking ain't missile turrets also do aoe damage? -.-
Missile turrets do not do area-of-effect damage in multiplayer, though they do have an upgrade in campaign that gives them a Valkyrie-style attack.
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On February 17 2011 10:54 darmousseh wrote:
In case you don't know, stacking air units don't actually fire at the exact same time. Blizzard confirmed that there is a slight delay (like 1/10th of a second) if you are firing a bunch of air units. This makes sc2 stacked air units slightly less powerful than bw stacked units. I'll try to find the source.
The much worse thing is they need to stop to fire. This coupled with lag can be difficult to overcome - player needs to order them to move back in advance but not too soon or they will move back without shooting while getting in range of something that can shoot them.
Another thing is when spread a bit they need to take a turn after stopping, they need to face their target before they fire. It takes a very small split of second but may mean some of them won't fire at all when microed in haste.
But still, I think stacking air units can be a world of difference when dealing with for example Colossi, Phoenixes, Vikings and trying to snipe Turrets, Photon Cannons and Spores.
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On February 17 2011 10:54 darmousseh wrote:
In case you don't know, stacking air units don't actually fire at the exact same time. Blizzard confirmed that there is a slight delay (like 1/10th of a second) if you are firing a bunch of air units. This makes sc2 stacked air units slightly less powerful than bw stacked units. I'll try to find the source.
It was from that thread talking about siege tanks in siege mode with smart fire.
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yeah thors would get insane damage on mutas. usually they hit 4-6 but stacked they would hit 30 at once. And muta micro would make zvt totally one sided.
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EPT
