EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 891
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Ganjamaster
Argentina475 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On May 04 2011 13:42 On_Slaught wrote: Idra asked for a def build and Day9 gave him one. However it isn't good vs greedy builds. Idra wants a build that can beat everything. Doesn't exist. Shouldn't exist. No, he said that Zerg needed a race that was safe against all early pressure, if Zerg couldn't scout to figure out what pressure was coming. Zerg either needs someway to figure out what is coming, or they need a build that can stop any pressure. | ||
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On May 04 2011 13:40 Vei wrote: welcome to day9 doesn't play the game but likes to act like he has a tourney-player calibre understanding still. he did in the beta, but the game has moved farrrr along since then. I Agree, and that's what I only watch Funday Monday for the last 3 or 4 months. The rest is very lackluster. He is still FUN, but his knowledge is terrible for a LOT of time... | ||
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theqat
United States2856 Posts
On May 04 2011 13:41 TheTenthDoc wrote: And he admitted the Spanishiwa build does that second thing...didn't he? No; that build lets the other player econ even harder than the Zerg and then the Zerg loses. The other races are scared to econ that hard for some reason, in spite of having super-reliable scouting of Z and knowing they won't even have a damn gas unit 'til 50+ food | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On May 04 2011 13:42 mikyaJ wrote: Quoting statistics does nothing. What IdrA is saying is that the Zerg will only win if the Terran or Protoss makes mistakes or doesn't play to their fullest. Obviously Zerg will still win within his theory. But how can this ever be proven or substantiated? The statistics go against it. The player that plays worse in every game I've ever watched has lost (bar maybe the Mondragon vs. Cruncher game two, but even that he made some significant errors). No Zerg has played to their fullest. Neither has a Terran or Protoss. | ||
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Executor1
1353 Posts
On May 04 2011 13:30 Vei wrote: why won't day9 accept the fact that zerg plays blind? idra is pointing out SPECIFICALLY (marine perimeters etc.) and day9 is just saying "EH EVERYONE SAYS THAT BUT I CANT GIVE SPECIFICS" I think thats kind of bullshit so you can set a paremeter of marines around your whole entire base? that sounds like total bs to me i mean do a dual pronged scout if its really that necessary. In the early game its not like there is that many units out there it doesnt seem that hard to find an angle to scout from. And if you scout early enough there really shouldnt be enough units out to kill the overlord before it scouts at least something. Also if its slightly later in the game an overseer with speed is faster then mmost units and there is no way you cant at least get in there to see even if yoou lose the overlord. I see zergs getting in sucesfull scouts all the time i dont really see it to be that much of a problem although i agree it is alot more of a hassle for zerg to scout. | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On May 04 2011 13:43 Ganjamaster wrote: I cant wait to hear a whole week of IdrA commentary "Fuck this guy, fuck protoss" "Fuck this guy, fuck terran" "Fuck this guy, such a retarded player" "Fuck this game, Blizz can't balance worth fucking shit" Repeat for a week | ||
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Ghostpvp
United States462 Posts
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Dreamer.T
United States3584 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On May 04 2011 13:38 GwSC wrote: Thats true, Protoss can't scout a walled in Zerg Oh wait.... It is difficult to scout early game zerg since the initial zerglings provide map control and deny scouting, once speed is done it completely shuts out any scouting. Also, ZvP zerg can actually scout protoss more easily than the protoss can scout the zerg thanks to overlords and toss not having any air attacks until stalkers/sentries. | ||
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DminusTerran
Canada1337 Posts
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TripleCow
United States240 Posts
On May 04 2011 13:42 Crais wrote: Day9 is just saying that whining like that isn't productive... He's trying to, but he's stumbling over his words. However, when it comes down to it, IdrA's points stand stronger. Balance discussions are what's gonna make this game better. | ||
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theqat
United States2856 Posts
On May 04 2011 13:44 Daralii wrote: "Fuck this guy, fuck protoss" "Fuck this guy, fuck terran" "Fuck this guy, such a retarded player" "Fuck this game, Blizz can't balance worth fucking shit" Repeat for a week Not what happens at all. If you had watched his stream when he commentated a few months ago, you'd know that. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
There's a build that lets Idra hatch-first, drone really hard, and be safe against all early aggression. If that build beat an FE as well, it would be FUCKING LUDICROUS. Imagine if Zerg had a built that was safe against everything one-base, economical, and you couldn't expand against. That's what Idra's asking for. He doesn't want to be "safe", he wants to be able to win every game against a foreigner because "I shouldn't be losing to these people". | ||
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mikyaJ
1834 Posts
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On May 04 2011 13:41 BronzeKnee wrote: He states that the early game is too risky for Zerg, because they are the defensive race, and they cannot scout and do not have a standard safe build that is safe against everything. Thus, they can lose to something randomly, regardless of skill. That is a bad game mechanic. Tyler had a good rebuttal, whereas Day[9] did not, he stated that Protoss takes risks and does a build that might lose to X but are safe against Y, Z and W, and the Protoss just hopes Zerg doesn't do X, and it often pays off, since Zerg only does X a small amount of the time (often doing Y, Z or W). Idra agreed, and said that was a bad game mechanic too, because it introduces random chance, like rock-paper-scissors. Tyler agreed. So in the end, Tyler and Idra agree that the game is mechanically bad, because of the randomness. That sums up the arguement. I love logical arguements. pretty much this, I think the debate got too heated though. I dont want to see some day9/idra feud because the tension was a little too thick imo. | ||
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TheGrimace
United States929 Posts
On May 04 2011 13:43 Cartel wrote: Day9 had nothing to bring to the conversation, and in my opinion is totally wrong about his ideas that ALL GAMES ARE BALANCED no matter what, simply because we havent discovered it yet in meta game. So let me give Day9 and example. What if Zerglings did 50 dmg. Would each race find a way to make the overall game balanced? Would it just take time? Of course its not balanced, and should be fixed. But Day9 would think its balanced we just haven't figured it out yet. He specifically said every game will have a balanced metagame, but that may mean a race won't get played. People will come up with optimal builds. If zerglings did 50 dmg, I don't think you would see Terran or Protoss being played. Then you would get zerg vs zerg, and the players with the best builds would be the better players. That was his statement, but it would not make a very diverse or fun game. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On May 04 2011 13:43 BronzeKnee wrote: No, he said that Zerg needed a race that was safe against all early pressure, if Zerg couldn't scout to figure out what pressure was coming. Zerg either needs someway to figure out what is coming, or they need a build that can stop any pressure. THEY HAVE ONE. The Spanishiwa build is safe against (nearly) everything and is hatch first and you drone really fast. | ||
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drox22
129 Posts
The thing is Terran and Protosses take risks and they should be awarded for taking risks, unless the Zerg also takes a risk. Zergs can baneling bust and also win alot of games with that and especially when terran for example is early expanding (see Jinro vs. Morrow games) it's almost impossible to scout it since you won't have any scans (if you scan you are behind in eco and if the zerg has already expanded and you miss the scan - maybe built the tech building outside of his base) you are also left with no information. Idra can't expect to win every game with just pure mechanics if players take a risk it should pay off, Idra can't expect to beat every build and be constantly able to scout the opponent, neither Terran nor protoss can do that without falling behind. And there also is the spanishiwa build and yes you might fall behind in economy, but the same goes for every other race, if you want to play safe you will lose to players who take a risk most of the time, that's how the game works, get used to it. | ||
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