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Before you start: These are the writers own opinions, not necessary facts about the state of the maps. Criticism is welcomed, and is encouraged, that being the sole purpose of this topic-determining the state of the maps and how good they are.
Lets start with a poll to see what maps you thumb down most:
Poll: The map you thumb down first(2) Desert Oasis (106) 59% (2) BListering Sands (30) 17% (4) Kulas Ravine (16) 9% (2) Scrap Station (13) 7% (2) Steps of war (8) 4% (4) Metalopolis (4) 2% (4) Lost Temple (3) 2% 180 total votes Your vote: The map you thumb down first (Vote): (2) BListering Sands (Vote): (2) Desert Oasis (Vote): (2) Scrap Station (Vote): (2) Steps of war (Vote): (4) Lost Temple (Vote): (4) Metalopolis (Vote): (4) Kulas Ravine
In my opinion, the maps are horrible, and seriously unbalanced. Every map favors a certain race and a certain way of playing. They don't have an established pattern, rather every map has some feature to make it distinct amongst the map pool as if they want to try everything out and see what works. Well, if that is the case, let me state my opinion and lets do a simple vote for every map.
(2) Blistering Sands This map is horrible, like every other 2 player map, it promotes cheese and all in builds. Aside from that it has a a back door in your main blocked only by some destructible rocks. While this has generated a few interesting games and strategies it is my opinion that this is silly, it gives and advantage to the race having map control early game and puts the other at a disadvantage by investing in infrastructure for defence.
Poll: Do you like blistering sandsYes (118) 67% No (58) 33% 176 total votes Your vote: Do you like blistering sands (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
Poll: Do you think the destrroyable rocks should be removed?No (136) 78% Yse (38) 22% 174 total votes Your vote: Do you think the destrroyable rocks should be removed? (Vote): Yse (Vote): No
Poll: Should the map be removed from the map pool altogeather?No (127) 82% Yes (27) 18% 154 total votes Your vote: Should the map be removed from the map pool altogeather? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
(2) Incineration Zone IMO another horrible map. The Rush distance is very small, it also has a back door. Adding to that, the whole map is composed of narrow chokes and corridors, making micro very difficult and adding to the potency of AOE, giving rise to some imbalances, but what bugs me most is the distance and cheese friendliness of the map.
Poll: Do you like Incineration ZoneNo (120) 70% Yes (51) 30% 171 total votes Your vote: Do you like Incineration Zone (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
Poll: Do you think the map should be enlarged?Yes (115) 79% No (31) 21% 146 total votes Your vote: Do you think the map should be enlarged? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
Poll: Sohuld the corridors and chokes be wider?Yes (90) 66% No (47) 34% 137 total votes Your vote: Sohuld the corridors and chokes be wider? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
Poll: Should the back door be removed?No (109) 81% Yes (25) 19% 134 total votes Your vote: Should the back door be removed? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
Poll: Should the map be removed from the map pool altogeather?No (72) 55% Yes (59) 45% 131 total votes Your vote: Should the map be removed from the map pool altogeather? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
(2) Desert Oasis I dislike this one the most. Its a big map with bases very close by air, but very far by land. It makes zerg able to scout easy with an Ovie, and it promotes air harrass and fast units. Since there are 2 long ways to the enemy, moving a mobile army from one side to the other can force the opponent in a deffencive stance and allow you to expland like crazy on your side while denying the same to your opponent. It favors the more mobile of the races in every MU. All this being said, i hate this map, i have no idea how to make it good (in my opinion) so the pool question regarding it shall be few.
Poll: Do you like deser oasisNo (107) 74% Yes (38) 26% 145 total votes Your vote: Do you like deser oasis (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
Poll: Should "something" be done to make this map better?Yes (96) 73% No (36) 27% 132 total votes Your vote: Should "something" be done to make this map better? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
Poll: Should this map be removed from the map pool?Yes (84) 60% No (57) 40% 141 total votes Your vote: Should this map be removed from the map pool? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
I have some RL things to take care of, so i don't have the time to finish this thread with every map, but i will, as soon as time presents itself add my opinion about the rest of the maps and add opinion polls.
Vote and comment.
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and why doesn't this poll have incineration zone again?
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Kinda odd to me to see Blistering Sands hate. I think it's one of the most balanced maps besides some configurations of the 4 player maps. There's plenty of room to exploit mobility, the map isn't too big so early aggression is an option, and 3rds require map control to take. but are defend-able.
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The maps are bad. They're too small and they have too much going on. Simplicity is often better.
Blizzard doesn't seem to have any rationale for designing maps the way they do. Instead, you get the impression that map designers are thinking: "here's something different, I'll put that in this map." However you don't get the impression that any of the map makers actually had a decent picture of SC2 in mind when they were working.
Here's hoping that Blizzard rapidly adopts or mimcs custom maps made by players who have some understanding of the game.
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On June 04 2010 00:25 k!llua wrote: and why doesn't this poll have incineration zone again?
Ups. Edit: Is there a way to add it in?
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On June 04 2010 00:25 k!llua wrote: and why doesn't this poll have incineration zone again?
It was removed from the ladder. Why do you you phrase your question like a douchebag?
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There are a few typos in your polls.
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What I would like to see is map opinion by race. If I was playing terran there is no way in hell I want to play on desert oasis. That being said, something like steppes of war is a nightmare for Z vs T.
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On June 04 2010 00:26 Logo wrote: Kinda odd to me to see Blistering Sands hate. I think it's one of the most balanced maps besides some configurations of the 4 player maps. There's plenty of room to exploit mobility, the map isn't too big so early aggression is an option, and 3rds require map control to take. but are defend-able.
The rocks in the main surrounded by an obligatory curtain of bushes are a major issue. I have no idea why Blizzard insisted on this feature, but it was obviously a bad idea. Anyone with a working knowledge of SCBW would have known that destructible rocks into the main would not work in that game or this one. It's surprising and disappointing that Blizzard didn't realize this (and went on to create Incineration Zone).
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On June 04 2010 00:30 Wr3k wrote: What I would like to see is map opinion by race. If I was playing terran there is no way in hell I want to play on desert oasis. That being said, something like steppes of war is a nightmare for Z vs T.
It had crossed my mind, but there are a lot of problems with that. How do you know only players of the given race will respond to their questions, and how to phrase them exactly? ("Do you like playing as T vs Z on DS?" That doesn't really tell us much.)
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I don't mind the maps in the current map pool, I just wish there were a couple that were put in as larger macro maps with some wider, less cluttered battle field areas. I don't think every map should be that way, though. I like having variety - with some maps having the destructible rocks, such as Blistering Sands, and some maps having close rush distances, like Steppes of War.
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incineration zone = auto-lose for Zerg. That map needs a serious overhaul. Remove the golden minerals in the middle, put them behind the destructible rocks, and make that old gold mineral patch lava.
desert oasis just sucks because of the far undefendable natural, other than that I'm okay with the map
Blistering sands I will say is one of the best maps Blizzard has made. It's a good strategic, mid-sized map. It's by far one of the most fun maps to play on.
Though I will say the BEST map Blizzard made for SC2 is Metalopolis. It's simple, dynamic, and straightforward. The only downside is that there's no island expos, which I'm not even crying about .
Oh and Steppes (or steeps? lol @ tesla from last nights cast) is just really.. really small. It's a bitch to ZvP/T on this map.
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where's inceniration zone in the map you tumbs down first ?
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On June 04 2010 00:28 Failsafe wrote: The maps are bad. They're too small and they have too much going on. Simplicity is often better.
Blizzard doesn't seem to have any rationale for designing maps the way they do. Instead, you get the impression that map designers are thinking: "here's something different, I'll put that in this map." However you don't get the impression that any of the map makers actually had a decent picture of SC2 in mind when they were working.
Here's hoping that Blizzard rapidly adopts or mimcs custom maps made by players who have some understanding of the game.
To be fair when the maps were designed SC2 had very different balance. People need to remember that the maps are developed alongside the initial game. It's not like the game is perfectly balanced then suddenly a bunch of maps are made.
Likewise there's a good chance that Blizzard wanted the game to be balanced across the set of maps we have right now (which isn't the case, but that's another point).
Though I will say the BEST map Blizzard made for SC2 is Metalopolis. It's simple, dynamic, and straightforward. The only downside is that there's no island expos, which I'm not even crying about .
Eh, I don't know. Metalopolis can go from zerg favored (diagonal or back to back positions) to a pretty hard match for zerg (across like the top left and bottom left positions). Being able to expand away from your opponent is a huge benefit for zerg in the current state of balance.
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On June 04 2010 00:34 StoLiVe wrote: where's inceniration zone in the map you tumbs down first ?
It's removed from the ladder.
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Even though I hate playing on some of these maps, I wouldn't want to change a thing, since I really appreicate some of the really good matches that has been played on said maps.
I think of it, as everyone has their preference maps based on their play style - Some maps favor some things, others don't.
And if 75% of all players hate Desert Oasis/Incineration Zone, then I guess it's pretty much just up to you as a player how you are going deal with that, since there is a good chance that your opponent feels the same way :D
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We need much more creative maps, the SC2 ladder maps currently are quite boring, and have o real "special" techniques
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About incineration zone i think it would help a LOT if they put destructible rocks in the shortest way between bases so that if you wanna rush you have to take longer way, it would be cool map with that change IMO
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On June 04 2010 00:38 ELA wrote: Even though I hate playing on some of these maps, I wouldn't want to change a thing, since I really appreicate some of the really good matches that has been played on said maps.
I think of it, as everyone has their preference maps based on their play style - Some maps favor some things, others don't.
And if 75% of all players hate Desert Oasis/Incineration Zone, then I guess it's pretty much just up to you as a player how you are going deal with that, since there is a good chance that your opponent feels the same way :D
The problem is that on B-net you an thumb them down, but lets say there is a tournament and you are forced to play these bad maps.
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I say don't worry. There will be many more maps with when the game comes out. Although I do agree some maps really favor one race over the other. Metalopolis should be just called Zerg Land lol I still love all the maps (minus Inceneration zone) Lost Temple owns
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As soon as the game will be out in july, we are going to be overwhelmed by amazing maps!!!!! Tanks in advance to those who will take time to improve this aspect of the game!!!!! tt
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I don't dislike any of the maps.
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i voted down kulas ravine because i never win on it zvt, ever. i still think it's a cool map idea but it just punishes me so hard, i have to win fast off one base to stand any chance, and i'm trying really hard to work on my midgame play so it just throws me off stride.
i actually like desert oasis. all my games on it have been really fun. i hope they leave some of these maps in the map pool that force a different style of play.
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Unless you are at the top skill level or very close, the map 'imbalance' isn't something that can't be overcome by being a better player than your opponent to X degree required, so I just see it as a challenge to overcome and let the top level decide on where the map pool should go.
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dont like the maps and im in favour of more desert oasis rush distance so your opponent is more likely to macro it up, go for something further up the tech tree to fuck with you. Most of the broodwar remakes are a testament to macro oriented play.
AND I WANT TO BRING it back. you want to ten gate? well the rush distances should almost always be similar to Oasis and Metalopolis (the longest rush distance spawns. Also it would help combat terran mech because of the long rush distances they cant unsiege travel 10 sec and be in your face almost instantly. Maps like lost temple should be stretched and made bigger for more awesome games.
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It was removed from the ladder. Why do you you phrase your question like a douchebag?
fair point good sir; apologies to the OP.
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Wow desert oasis is least favorite. I thought people would say Kulas Ravine.
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On June 04 2010 02:14 Bob300 wrote: Wow desert oasis is least favorite. I thought people would say Kulas Ravine. Are you kidding me? Kulas ravine, steppes of war, metalopolis, lost temple are 4 best maps in SC2!
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Desert Oasis makes for the most entertaining games as a spectator. It's not always about the players. Just ask Stork.
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Desert oasis is the most balanced map imo. it's large enough that terran mech doesn't instantly control everything like most of the other maps.
The least balanced is probably Steppes of war, though it's alot of fun to play. and incineration zone is right next.
I really don't like Lost temple at all.
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cool poll. i really dislike a lot of the maps due to so many chokes and ramps. i feel they promote early game cheese and all ins. some of my favorite games were cross spawns on temple.
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I don't know why but I HATE Kulas
I think I just believe in naturals being safe. that nasty cliff AND two big fat chokes AND the backdoor rocks makes me feel like i'm going to be raped the moment i leave my main. but it's not a good map for one base aggression or cheese either because the push distances are so long. and all the expansions except the third are impossible to hold. it's just uncomfortable all around.
i understand the desert oasis hate but i use a lot of air harass openings so it's often a free win if i do get it. plus, open as the natural is, it's still not as abusable as the sweet spot on blistering sands which is the most obnoxious feature ever.
i wish the two player maps weren't the weak ones. i mean, don't get me wrong, lost temple and metalopolis are great maps, i just have always loved the intensity and directness of two-player maps. i could play on destination all day long and never get tired of it, but Steppes is really the only one of the 2s that i think is really well thought out.
someone really needs to hurry up and come up with a symmetry patch for the map editor, i feel like it's really slowing down all the melee map makers that we have to manually balance everything right now
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On June 04 2010 02:25 PrinceXizor wrote: Desert oasis is the most balanced map imo. it's large enough that terran mech doesn't instantly control everything like most of the other maps.
The least balanced is probably Steppes of war, though it's alot of fun to play. and incineration zone is right next.
I really don't like Lost temple at all.
DO may not favour mech but it sure as hell favours banshees and reapers. i don't think i've ever lost a TvZ on it.
i think it favours zerg in PvZ as well because gateway pressure and force fields are so weak except at that one choke, though i guess you can always go phoenixes
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Blistering Sands: Probably my favorite map after LT, seems pretty balanced.
Incineration zone: Thank god its gone, the map was a nightmare for Zerg. Siegeable expos, short rush distance, tight chokes everywhere.
Steppes of war: Short rush distance, some restrictive parts of the map, but not bad otherwise. Still pretty difficult to react to pushes due to the very short distance, but the central area of the map allows decent flanking.
Desert Oasis: Obviously a bit zerg favored due to its open areas and circular shape. The amount of running across/around the map between expos that takes place is pretty huge, so I think Z has the edge in that respect, especially with nydus. That being said, I don't think it is too ridiculous compared to say.. incineration zone.
Lost temple: I really like LT. The cliff at the expansion can be a real hassle, but other than that I think its a great map. The terrain is nice and varied. Spawning with the short rush distance vs protoss can be a pain.
Metalopolis: Metalopolis is a solid map, like LT the terrain is varied, the circular layout certainly makes things interesting. Just like LT, short rush distance can be a major hassle if you happen to spawn that way, but again, that is only 33% of the time.
Scrap station: This map tends to annoy me, but certainly is interesting. With the short air distance and the optional path through the rocks it seems to really encourage base trading/cheesy plays and it makes it quite difficult to defend both your expansions and your main simultaneously. Other than that I think its a great map. I really think that controlling the rock bridge is huge.
Kulas ravine: I am really not a fan of how easy it is to abuse the cliff at the natural. It also seems like terran and protoss get their 3rd base essentially for free. The center of the map also feels quite narrow. Certainly not my favorite zerg map.
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On June 04 2010 02:18 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 02:14 Bob300 wrote: Wow desert oasis is least favorite. I thought people would say Kulas Ravine. Are you kidding me? Kulas ravine, steppes of war, metalopolis, lost temple are 4 best maps in SC2!
Kulas is imba for terran due to all the cliff abuse lololzz
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I really dislike DO, and the only reason I said I liked IZ is because tanks are so ridiculous there. I hope when the game comes out players can vote or somehow get Blizzard to put in the really good custom maps. Map makers are going nuts and producing a lot of quality work that I hope doesn't just get regulated to custom games.
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I'm amazed at how many people thumbs down blistering sands. Desert oasis I can understand as P or T, but blistering sands seems pretty balanced and interesting to me.
I really think that SC2 maps feel insanely small. I would love to see some maps that have longer distances to encourage some more crazy SCBW-like play. I feel like it isn't the rush distance that makes Desert Oasis Z favored as much as the placement of expos & circular shape. Something like chupung ryeong with more of a linear attack path could be very interesting imo. Hopefully we get some new maps on or shortly after release. I would like to see a larger map pool.
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Kulas Ravine - I really hated Kulas Ravine at first, but it has grown on me. It does favor macro which is harder for a newb like me.
Incineration Zone - My initial favorite when starting playing SC2, it has a very simple and interesting layout. I guess as a terran I have an easier time on this one.
Blistering Sands - I find Blistering Sands to be one of the toughest map to play on. It's pretty hard to defend your backdoor and expansion at the same time. Scouting seems to be really important on this map and I guess having high APM.
Scrap Station - another map that I found to be simple and interesting. It has a long rushing distance and seems to favor defensive play.
Lost Temple - I think this map is my favorite at this point, not sure exactly why, just have had most fun playing on this map.
I've found the maps overall to be interesting and fun. Not sure about balancing issues as I've only played as terran and not really at a high enough level to judge.
Twilight Fortress is retarded though.
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Desert Oasis worst map imo, we need more maps with multiple spawn locations. A map simliar to desert oasis, but with 4 possible starting locations would make it much more entertaining to play on.
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Desert Oasis is my favorite map ez
steppes and kulas thumbs down
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On June 04 2010 03:03 baytripper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 02:25 PrinceXizor wrote: Desert oasis is the most balanced map imo. it's large enough that terran mech doesn't instantly control everything like most of the other maps.
The least balanced is probably Steppes of war, though it's alot of fun to play. and incineration zone is right next.
I really don't like Lost temple at all. DO may not favour mech but it sure as hell favours banshees and reapers. i don't think i've ever lost a TvZ on it. i think it favours zerg in PvZ as well because gateway pressure and force fields are so weak except at that one choke, though i guess you can always go phoenixes I pretty much never lose ZvT on that map. reapers + banshees are easily countered. more maps need to be designed like DO imo. by that i mean open middles multiple paths to attack and such.
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