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On May 07 2010 07:13 Seiuchi wrote:
"The Thor Strike Cannons have become an upgrade to try to help out the Ultralisk, who is countered so hard by this attack that we see very few Ultralisks in Terran vs. Zerg."
I guess I am satisfied they understand the Ultra needs more fixes, but hopefully they understand the reason Ultras are so bad is because Marauders destroy them so badly and they've made it so that mass Marauder is so prevalent?
Sadly the nerf to the Thor makes it more vulnerable to Feedback, since you have to save up more energy before you can use its one ability ...
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t.t poor ultra getting neutral paracite
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This is a good patch. Some explainations make no sense and still make me think Blizzard doesn't really understand how its game works. But well, the patch is balancing the right stuff this time so it's ok.
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The problem with Ults isn't their damage, it's the fact that they are armored. It's funny how an armored unit becomes more squishy than light units vs marauders or immortals. It might be useful ZvZ, but ZvZ either never goes late game or you get stuck in tier 2. It seems like the game would already be won for the player who was in a position to go for Ults in ZvZ.
Fixing Ults is going to be tricky. On one hand just a couple of ults can kill an almost infinite amount of rines or especially zerglings but they get hard countered to easy. They have to buff ults vs +armor units and heavilly nerf them vs rines and lings. Seems like a real challenge. I think lings and rines might need a late game buff to help fix this problem. That said we almost NEVER see mass lings or rines late game; perhaps buffing them will ironically make ults more valuable as you might actually see the units they do well against later in the game. Ults are too good vs what they do well against and to weak against what counters them. Thus no reason to build the units the counter. I think that there are to many hard counters in the game in general.
As for BC, I don't think making them build faster will do much. Maybe it might help them reach critical mass earlier if they can reach critical mass at all vs corrupters or other hard counters.
Also the phenoix patch is a joke. It seems like Blizzard got link spammed to LaRush's thread but they only read a sentence or two of the thread. "Fire while moving? ok fine". Perhaps LaRush should have avoided that term to prevent confusing however if you read the thread it was clear what he meant. He was talking about stop animation not flying vultures. Pheniox micro may now be the most easy micro I ever seen. Even vultures stopped to fire, they just didn't lose acceleration.
That said it might work if they include a major phenoix damage and range nurf. As a zerg player I miss muta micro more then anything else, but seeing this patch I am afraid that Blizzard might brake the unit if they do something similar to muta.
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On May 07 2010 12:55 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 12:47 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 07 2010 12:35 arb wrote:On May 07 2010 12:34 0neder wrote:
Blizzard, aside from Balance there is one MAJOR thing you need to tweak so that the game is more FUN to play. NERF MARAUDERS. THEY ARE TOO GOOD IN TOO MANY SITUATIONS! you spelled "THEY ARE TOO GOOD IN EVERY SITUATION" wrong Air units and Immortals would like to have a word with you. Immortals get raped by large numbers of marauders, and i swear ive seen then turn on rocket boosters too, these aret he ambitious ones not satisfyed with being imba on the ground
I'm pretty sure 6 Immortals can beat 18 Marauders, but that's just a rough estimate.
Oh, and Colossi outrange Marauders by a ton, not to mention they can abuse high-ground (even if you get sight, Marauders are still outranged)
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On May 07 2010 12:44 Pervect wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 12:32 checo wrote:
man... Just nerf the Thor and Raven??? Come on i don't even get them most of the time... now i won't at anytime i think ....
Nerf on colo, very nice, whats the point of making protos had another awsome air unit??? Isn't damn void ray enought??? they didn't even take up energy cost on FF....
Yey buff the damn corruptor like it isn't so damn strong already.... And plz Fungal is to damn much damage and stun efect for so few energy ... god nerf it already
On everything else very nice job.
How fucking retarded are you? Seriously, just shut the fuck up.
Wow your points make real sense i think i must agree with your arguments ...
I just give my opinion on some of the "fixes", you just ofended someone who's retarded?...
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I think they went overboard on Infestors. Just a nerf to the energy cost from 50 to 100 would be enough to make zerg players heavily consider getting the +25 energy at spawn upgrade. But now you have to upgrade BOTH neural parasite and +25 energy. Kind of makes the infestor a much later game unit. Maybe that's what they intended...
Or it was for the mass ultralisk mind controlling going on... somewhere.
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Blizz needs to release a Situation Report on their Situation Report. Where did they get some of these reasons?
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On May 07 2010 13:29 Johoseph wrote:
I think they went overboard on Infestors. Just a nerf to the energy cost from 50 to 100 would be enough to make zerg players heavily consider getting the +25 energy at spawn upgrade. But now you have to upgrade BOTH neural parasite and +25 energy. Kind of makes the infestor a much later game unit. Maybe that's what they intended...
Or it was for the mass ultralisk mind controlling going on... somewhere.
they did replace the defiler so im guessing thats what they were intended for
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I went from thinking blizzard should make changes first without listening to the players to now thinking they should be starting their own threads here and on battle.net with polls so they can get a feeling for what's really going on. I mean mind controlling ultras? wtf? Lower level players not being able to defend against a turlting zerg because of spine crawlers? This has an effect on higher level players who need the mobility of the spine crawlers on maps with backdoors. I don't understand how you can expect to balance a game by trying to accommadate everyone. Setting up a poll and reading comments on battle.net forums would allow them to see the skill level of the opponent and then they can just ignore all the stupid comments from the copper league players who keep losing to void rays and spine crawler rushes. I mean seriously? Mind control to defend against void rays? It's not done in time. I thought they had play testers?
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On May 07 2010 07:07 monad wrote:
Ultralisk- Damage has been increased from 18 to 25.
We are buffing the Ultralisk, but we don’t think this buff is sufficient. Expect more changes to the Ultralisk in the next patch.
Happy days!
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I get +25 energy upgrade anyway before infestors so no problemo lol..
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On May 07 2010 13:40 guitarizt wrote:
Lower level players not being able to defend against a turlting zerg because of spine crawlers?
your argument kinda dies because this strat is the one the korean platinum zergs use, not the lower-level players.
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On May 07 2010 13:40 guitarizt wrote:
I went from thinking blizzard should make changes first without listening to the players to now thinking they should be starting their own threads here and on battle.net with polls so they can get a feeling for what's really going on. I mean mind controlling ultras? wtf? Lower level players not being able to defend against a turlting zerg because of spine crawlers? This has an effect on higher level players who need the mobility of the spine crawlers on maps with backdoors. I don't understand how you can expect to balance a game by trying to accommadate everyone. Setting up a poll and reading comments on battle.net forums would allow them to see the skill level of the opponent and then they can just ignore all the stupid comments from the copper league players who keep losing to void rays and spine crawler rushes. I mean seriously? Mind control to defend against void rays? It's not done in time. I thought they had play testers?
I'm starting to think the testers are in the copper - gold league.
Seriously blizzard, neural parasites on ultralisks in a z fucking z. All my zvz's ended in less than 10 minutes with me winning without ever even teching to lair. (platinum)
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I'm pretty sure the ultralisk neural parasite is a typo... What reason would Blizzard have to care about mirror matchup balance? It's a mirror matchup.
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On May 07 2010 13:52 synapse wrote:
I'm pretty sure the ultralisk neural parasite is a typo... What reason would Blizzard have to care about mirror matchup balance? It's a mirror matchup.
Because people bitch about Z and its stale unit options.
With ZvZ revolving around lings , lingspeed, banelings, roaches, and level 1 upgrades, its not likely that the game will reach a point where one player gets Ultras fielded. Either one player wins, or they are both badly hurt from the fights, but usualy they don't use that time to "Macro up" but instead to regroup and finish. If one player does macro up, they arn't shooting up tech for damn Ultras, I haven't seen that. Even with the buffs, shooting for ultras will lose you the game before the invested min/gas + time pays off.
I don't expect to see Ultras in ZvZ from top players, unless they are practicing and testing. And the results will most likely come back to "its easier to win by focusing on the T1 game, and ending close games with T2 late game"
Buuut thats my speculation. Lower lvl games might see them as useful. They might just want to pad the stats of zergs at lower skill ranges.
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An idea as to where some of Blizzard's strange reasons come from is that when they do balancing they likely start with some "seed" change that they believe is definitely needed based on test and community results and then by crunching some numbers come up with other things that would need to be changed as a result of the first change. This would at least partially explain why some changes seem dead obvious where as others leave the community going "huh?".
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On May 07 2010 07:13 Seiuchi wrote:
"The Thor Strike Cannons have become an upgrade to try to help out the Ultralisk, who is countered so hard by this attack that we see very few Ultralisks in Terran vs. Zerg."
I guess I am satisfied they understand the Ultra needs more fixes, but hopefully they understand the reason Ultras are so bad is because Marauders destroy them so badly and they've made it so that mass Marauder is so prevalent?
ultras aren't as bad against marauders as everyone wants to believe.
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On May 07 2010 07:34 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 07:31 HydroXy wrote:On May 07 2010 07:21 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 07 2010 07:19 HydroXy wrote:
Okay, point taken on the static part (edited my post). But why wasn't 6 seconds already reasonable? Proxy Crawlers, moving positions of Spine Crawlers a few seconds after scouting the enemy coming into your base being too powerful, etc. Ultimately, this shouldn't matter significantly in midgame, and especially not in late game. The change does have a huge impact in the early game when Zerg just have the FE up and need a defensive bonus in holding off timing pushes. Only way to be ready for this is to pull Spine Crawlers up from the main and move it to the newly-laid creep from the FE (or build near the FE hatch and uproot once creep has spread.) Now this takes double that amount of time and makes defending timing pushes that much harder. Go watch Korean Zerg players 
The problem is, no joke (after watching over 100 korean replays)
that korean P and T don't make good timing pushes at all, and ALLOW zerg to get to the macro game..
In Korea, Zerg is the most "OP" race as it would be said, but in US, it would be protoss, and the main reason lays here:
Koreans like to go macro game for some reason (Even P and T) they decide to only put a bit of pressure (if any at all) on the zerg, while they sit back and macro as well, which is what you CANT do to a zerg player to win... Once a protoss pressures a zerg player, it puts him at a disadvantage, where theres a decrease in drone prodution, and more defences being made to defend against the ever-so "all-in timing pushes", which koreans simply, almost never do.
Also, You almost NEVER see a voidray rush on korean servers against zerg (where the 2 void rays would kill the 2 main queens, then the one at the nat) and you dont see alot of the reaper into hellion into banshee harassing, or 6raxing. Alot of the korean non-zerg play much more passively, as i have only seen a couple timing pushes, and nothing else much other than that. i use the 17173 site to watch my replays.. please show me some VoDs that show T and P rush a zerg Non successfuly with a good timing.
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On May 07 2010 13:40 guitarizt wrote:
I went from thinking blizzard should make changes first without listening to the players to now thinking they should be starting their own threads here and on battle.net with polls so they can get a feeling for what's really going on. I mean mind controlling ultras? wtf? Lower level players not being able to defend against a turlting zerg because of spine crawlers? This has an effect on higher level players who need the mobility of the spine crawlers on maps with backdoors. I don't understand how you can expect to balance a game by trying to accommadate everyone. Setting up a poll and reading comments on battle.net forums would allow them to see the skill level of the opponent and then they can just ignore all the stupid comments from the copper league players who keep losing to void rays and spine crawler rushes. I mean seriously? Mind control to defend against void rays? It's not done in time. I thought they had play testers?
the spine crawler strat was made and used by the highest current level of players.
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EPT
