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On October 11 2012 17:26 Evangelist wrote:
I'm just curious how durable you want gateway units to be. They're already pretty horrifying in all but the very earliest scenarios.
I'd also note that this whole "other races have to go to T2 to beat us" idea is a little silly considering terrans don't actually have the ability to tech through tiers like that. You haven't done anything about the mech/immortal relationship (besides moving it to the Twilight Council, thus delaying the ultimate protoss deathball by.. 3 minutes so with stronger gateway armies exactly how is terran supposed to win?
Bigger numbers and smart deployment of mines.
i.e. How Arnold Schwarzenegger's character managed to win a single Predator. By the skin of their teeth. And Arnold's character used mines (a booby trap) in that movie.
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I've just one question, though.
As it appears now, protoss seem to have the current strongest lategame, wouldnt this just buff thier lategame? ie - instead of warping on 15-20 chargelots, they now warp in 15-20 "super chargelots"?
some of the ideas seem nice, but the core issue is the fact that warpgate actually exist, and that will forever make the lategame really annoying to play against.
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On October 11 2012 17:53 Tankz123 wrote:
I've just one question, though.
As it appears now, protoss seem to have the current strongest lategame, wouldnt this just buff thier lategame? ie - instead of warping on 15-20 chargelots, they now warp in 15-20 "super chargelots"?
some of the ideas seem nice, but the core issue is the fact that warpgate actually exist, and that will forever make the lategame really annoying to play against.
That's the thing, without the current widow mine, there would be NO way for a Terran to recover from a zero sum battle.
With the "return" of the firebat and spidermine, the return of the "super" zealot becomes feasible again.
Dustin could consider adding +1 armor and +1 attack upgrade (Zeal?) for Zealot in addition to chargelot.
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On October 11 2012 17:53 Tankz123 wrote:
I've just one question, though.
As it appears now, protoss seem to have the current strongest lategame, wouldnt this just buff thier lategame? ie - instead of warping on 15-20 chargelots, they now warp in 15-20 "super chargelots"?
some of the ideas seem nice, but the core issue is the fact that warpgate actually exist, and that will forever make the lategame really annoying to play against.
Protoss only has a strong late game because of Storm and Colossus, bioballs melt through gateway armies will very little loss at the late game.
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Well, the widowmine doesnt seem that good to deal with it if the protoss player is just careful, he can easily pick off the widow mines (obs + range 9 colo) - or hell, he can zealot bomb the tank lines, and the widow mines will completly destroy it because you dont really have some decent GtA as mech (+ tanks being really awful versus zealots and archons doesnt really help)
Also, i dont know why they made helions bioloigcal, they're completly awful versus archons now and gets melted into pieces.
edit to ^ - Yes, but now, remove the factor of the weak gateway army (i dont see any changes to colo/storm here) and well, the lategame will be ugly.
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I just hope blizzard realizes this before it's too late..
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That analysis of the OP is wrong in nearly every detail...
Zealots in BW did do 2*8 damage, not 1*16.
Roaches don't do the same amount or even more damage than the Zealot, they do considerably less, because they attack very slowly.
those are the dps numbers:
zealot BW: 18.8dps
dragoon BW: 8.3 (12.5 vs med, 16.6 vs large) dps
zergling BW (without adrenalin glands): 15.625 dps
hydralisk BW: 8.3 (12.5 vs med, 16.6 vs large) dps
marine BW(pre stim): 10dps
firebat BW(pre stim): 4.54 (9.09 vs medium, 18.18 vs small) dps
(real seconds, fastest speed)
zealot SC2: 13.3 dps
stalker SC2: 6.9 (9.7 vs armored) dps
zergling SC2 (without adrenalin glands): 7.2 dps
roach SC2: 8 dps
marine SC2(pre stim): 7dps
marauder SC2(pre stim): 6.7 (13.4) dps
(blizzard seconds, fastest speed)
zealot SC2: 18.354 dps
stalker SC2: 9.52 (13.39 vs armored) dps
zergling SC2 (without adrenalin glands): 9.94 dps
roach SC2: 11.04 dps
marine SC2(pre stim): 9.66dps
marauder SC2(pre stim): 9.24 (18.49) dps
(real seconds, fastest speed)
also this:
On October 11 2012 20:28 Kipsate wrote:
I don't think you have taken into account that in BW, shields would take full damage from every source, this means that for example a vulture who dealt concussive damage would deal 20 damage to Dragoon shields until the shields depleted, after that he would only deal 5 damage to the life of the Dragoon itself. Hydralisks deal explosive damage, they would deal 50% damage against zealots, yet they did 100% of damage against Zealots Shields.
Analyze this however you want, but don't post bullshit like the OP about roaches doing the same damage as zealots, zergling damage being the same in BW and SC2 etc etc etc
Edit: btw, I do like some of the OPs ideas, though I think some lack detail - though this could just be a problem of putting ideas out in a way that people will read them. 
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On October 11 2012 17:53 Tankz123 wrote:
I've just one question, though.
As it appears now, protoss seem to have the current strongest lategame, wouldnt this just buff thier lategame? ie - instead of warping on 15-20 chargelots, they now warp in 15-20 "super chargelots"?
some of the ideas seem nice, but the core issue is the fact that warpgate actually exist, and that will forever make the lategame really annoying to play against.
First of all, Zerg has the strongest lategame.
Secondly, Protoss vs Terran, Terran also wins lategame. I will not go into detail too much but getting a lot of Vikings and a lot of Ghosts kills Protoss ground (you can kill the Observers really fast, giving you no way to deal with the Ghosts).
This is shown by the current Protoss almost all of them try to avoid big one-fight games where it all comes down to 200/200 vs 200/200. If they let it come to this they make sure they are in with a big advantage (like 200/200 vs 180/200 and better upgrades)
Like NaNiwa did against Flash.
It is true that if only a-moved the Protoss "Deathball" will win against Terran Bio, but kiting makes it impossible to deal damage with Colossi while they get killed by Vikings and also makes it hard to land Storms, plus, you know... the Zealots ALSO deal very little damage.
And that is what good players now do, they are not afraid to kite through the entire map because it means they will not lose a lot more hp than the cost of Stim.
So no, they do not have the strongest lategame, why else would Protoss players feel the need to add 30 Gateways to reinforce in a fight and then just barely win?
I sooo love OPs ideas, it would make the PvP problems disappear.
It would give me the option to not go Colossi every single game.
I wish Blizzard would hire this guy tomorrow...
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Fine, they might not have the strongest (this can be argued to no end) - but they defo have the most difficult to deal with if you're not a high skilled player (but then again, that's just my opinion and several others) - and these changes wont exactly help with that (also, most games Rain have won recently have been macro, where he completly destroyed his enemy - most protoss seem to aim for the lategame, so it would be weird if they didnt consider this thier strongest point of the game.
edit - to get back on track, as stated before, some of the ideas are good, but stuff like the immortal change doesnt really make sense, and these changes just seem to screw over mech a lot more than it currently is (from a terran pov)
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Sadly I do not have a NA account so I cannot answer in the Forum but please people express your opinions!!
With enough feedback Blizzard might change more than they want to right now.
Also Dustin Rock had this to say: "For example I don't believe that "Gateway units are weak because of warp-in." I do agree that Sentry is core to Gateway and that Gateway units are balanced around the use of Sentry. "
I don't WANT Protoss early and mid game to be designed around the Sentry. It makes map design very one dimensional since the Sentry relies on the terrain. It also makes the game frustrating for Protoss and the other races.
Whenever I win with a Sentry based all in my opponents say how incredibly hard it is to hold this off and I feel a little more dirty.
Whenever I lose a game because I missed those one or two critical forcefields by a second I just want to punch someone for this ridiculously bad designed gameplay.
Honestly, why would you Balance Protoss off all races around such a gimmicky mechanic?!
Call for change and change we will get. Blizzard listens to the community, so PLEASE post in the BNet thread, post here, go on reddit and post there. Make it happen, this is our chance to make Starcraft 2 a game we want to love for the next 15 years!
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On October 11 2012 20:00 Tankz123 wrote:
Fine, they might not have the strongest (this can be argued to no end) - but they defo have the most difficult to deal with if you're not a high skilled player (but then again, that's just my opinion and several others) - and these changes wont exactly help with that (also, most games Rain have won recently have been macro, where he completly destroyed his enemy - most protoss seem to aim for the lategame, so it would be weird if they didnt consider this thier strongest point of the game.
edit - to get back on track, as stated before, some of the ideas are good, but stuff like the immortal change doesnt really make sense, and these changes just seem to screw over mech a lot more than it currently is (from a terran pov)
The Immortal deals less damage and has half the HP, in addition to that hardened shield has to be researched.
For just one supply less, the Immortals damage against mechanical units has gone down from 50 to 30, and I still would love to see these changes. I know you now can build them earlier, but why would I go for blind mass Immortals against Terran and die to Marines?
Obviously the numbers have to be tested to be sure, but I think those changes would make Starcraft 2 so much better.
Also, I wouldn't mind getting a buffed Carrier and losing the Colossus, I think it is a terrible unit design and no-one disagrees, why the hell would they keep it?!
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Netherlands45349 Posts
I don't think you have taken into account that in BW, shields would take full damage from every source, this means that for example a vulture who dealt concussive damage would deal 20 damage to Dragoon shields until the shields depleted, after that he would only deal 5 damage to the life of the Dragoon itself. Hydralisks deal explosive damage, they would deal 50% damage against zealots, yet they did 100% of damage against Zealots Shields.
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From the changes you suggested I liked the most:
- Tempest idea - nice idea though the range upgrade would get tricky combined with the increased movement speed.
Maybe more like 7 basic range +3 with upgrade or 9 range and upgrade for speed instead.
- Mothership idea - definitely agree with removing the vortex, permanent powerfield and slow are great ideas
- Sentry robotics - would change the game completely though since zealot/stalkers would need buff to hold early game.
Maybe the logics behind warpgates is that only small units may be warped through, that way it makes sense and is elegant the way it is now.
I'd suggest changing voidrays by giving them an upgrade(probably fleet beacon 150/150) that would allow them to charge themselves before battle.
For example it would take 10 seconds to charge with 60 second cooldown or something. Would make them much useful past early game.
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On October 11 2012 20:09 rEalGuapo wrote:
Sadly I do not have a NA account so I cannot answer in the Forum but please people express your opinions!!
With enough feedback Blizzard might change more than they want to right now.
Also Dustin Rock had this to say: "For example I don't believe that "Gateway units are weak because of warp-in." I do agree that Sentry is core to Gateway and that Gateway units are balanced around the use of Sentry. "
I don't WANT Protoss early and mid game to be designed around the Sentry. It makes map design very one dimensional since the Sentry relies on the terrain. It also makes the game frustrating for Protoss and the other races.
Whenever I win with a Sentry based all in my opponents say how incredibly hard it is to hold this off and I feel a little more dirty.
Whenever I lose a game because I missed those one or two critical forcefields by a second I just want to punch someone for this ridiculously bad designed gameplay.
Honestly, why would you Balance Protoss off all races around such a gimmicky mechanic?!
Call for change and change we will get. Blizzard listens to the community, so PLEASE post in the BNet thread, post here, go on reddit and post there. Make it happen, this is our chance to make Starcraft 2 a game we want to love for the next 15 years!
In PvP and TvP, Protoss relies only very little on sentries in a lot of strategies. Most protoss get a few early on when they tech or chrono probes, while they actually rely mostly on stalkers. I think the relation in those matchups are quite fine,
In ZvP... it's the stupidity that is superpowerful mass 4range roaches early/midgame into superweak 2supply roach(/hydra) lategame that needs to be changed for gateway units to get the right basic unit relation.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
Really quite a brilliant OP, well thought out and interesting ideas, none of that "BRING BACK REAVER" nonsense.
Browder really needs to see that protoss could be so much better designed, warp tech makes gateways just a stepping stone to warp gates which isn't well thought out imo
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Very nice ideas that in theory would work well.
i dislike nerfing the immortal in that way but with stalkers doing (even) worse against roaches it would be necessary. It just doesnt feel right.
The changes to voidray and tempest would make them overlap heavily.
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also, with warpgates being set to different cooldowns depending on what unit has been built makes protoss unit production macro hell compared to the other races. unfair.
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To be honest, in SC1 Toss didn't really have tier 1 units that overpowered Terran and Zerg.
In PvZ, toss would always fast expand then hide behind cannons till tier 2 tech was out, in the form of reavers or templar. Zealots would only be useful once leg speed came out; once that happened they would do quite well vs both speedlings and hydras, but once the hydra balls got really big Toss had to rely on storm or reaver to fight it. Dragoons were never really good against Zerg tier 1, they were used more for breaking lurker fields or fending off mutas.
In PvT, zealots did decently against marines at the start, while dragoons with the range upgrade could kite infantry to death easily, so Terran had to turtle. However once Terran had stim, range, medics and a decent amount of infantry out, they would actually trade against Toss tier 1 pretty cost effectively, perhaps even have the upper hand once numbers on both sides grew larger. The reason Terran had to use tier 2 to fight Toss was that storms/reavers countered Terran tier 1 far too hard for them to be of any use.
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also, with warpgates being set to different cooldowns depending on what unit has been built makes protoss unit production macro hell compared to the other races. unfair.
You realise that is already the case? Considering you apparently never noticed I dont think it is that big of a deal. You select all your warpgates with your hotkey, and SC2 automatically allows you to produce units from whichever warpgate isnt on CD.
But you can of course always switch back to normal gateways if you rather got the 'easier macro' that other races have.
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Well, Blizzard definitely moving towards making Protoss a completely new race in HotS. Looks awesome!
They still got Colossus to work on, though.
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