EPT2023 - 2024 Football Thread - Page 156
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GTR
51486 Posts
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sharkie
Austria18481 Posts
On July 07 2024 06:07 FlaShFTW wrote: Turkey played some fantastic games this tournament. Should be very proud of the way they played. I still think it's Spain's to lose but losing Pedri is gonna hurt. Still think they have enough firepower to do this. Southgate's 3 at the back change didn't really do much, again relied on a moment of genius from one of his players to get a wonder goal to equalize. Please just put on Gordon man... it's like he just refuses to make the simple change and instead wants to dance around the main issues. Whs do you think losing pedri hurts? Olmo was MVP against Germany | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On July 07 2024 15:13 sharkie wrote: Whs do you think losing pedri hurts? Olmo was MVP against Germany Yes but he was also non existant in some other games. While pedri is consistently good. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18481 Posts
On July 07 2024 16:41 KobraKay wrote: Yes but he was also non existant in some other games. While pedri is consistently good. what other games? Olmo has played a great Euro so far.. Maybe in other games in Spain national dress before but I am just talking this Euro. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28696 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18085 Posts
On July 07 2024 17:54 Liquid`Drone wrote: Whenever I've watched Spain play they look way more dangerous with Olmo than without - but they also sacrifice a bit of control, and thus also look more vulnerable. I think he is a better finisher than any other spaniard, by a margin, but he doesn't really play the Spanish way. Kinda makes sense, as he is one of very few top Spanish players to spend his key development years outside spain. If the Spanish way requires your formative years to be spent in Spain, how do you explain the very very different approaches to football taken at Madrid, Barcelona and Atléti, just to name 3 very different club styles. Do those really have more in common with each other than with Dynamo Zagreb (other than geography)? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25875 Posts
On July 07 2024 17:54 Liquid`Drone wrote: Whenever I've watched Spain play they look way more dangerous with Olmo than without - but they also sacrifice a bit of control, and thus also look more vulnerable. I think he is a better finisher than any other spaniard, by a margin, but he doesn't really play the Spanish way. Kinda makes sense, as he is one of very few top Spanish players to spend his key development years outside spain. It’s a tough call, I guess it depends what you’re trying to do. I can certainly see Pedri being a better option against maybe France, but Olmo can definitely be a bit more incisive as you say. England, to take one example have a couple of Olmo types, but they’d absolutely kill for a Pedri type player. Whereas Spain have a production line of players like Pedri, even if they’re not quite as good as he is, and maybe an Olmo who’s a bit different and more direct is what they need | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25875 Posts
On July 07 2024 22:16 Acrofales wrote: If the Spanish way requires your formative years to be spent in Spain, how do you explain the very very different approaches to football taken at Madrid, Barcelona and Atléti, just to name 3 very different club styles. Do those really have more in common with each other than with Dynamo Zagreb (other than geography)? The national side plays much more like one of those teams than the other I mean I’m sure plenty of Dutch sides also played really different styles in the 70s, but perceptions of the ‘Dutch school’ are very rooted in how Ajax played the game in those times and how that fed into the national team | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18085 Posts
On July 07 2024 22:25 WombaT wrote: The national side plays much more like one of those teams than the other I mean I’m sure plenty of Dutch sides also played really different styles in the 70s, but perceptions of the ‘Dutch school’ are very rooted in how Ajax played the game in those times and how that fed into the national team But far from everybody in the Spanish team was exposed to the Masia education. In fact, Dani Olmo has more time in Barcelona's education program than Nico Williams, Fabián Ruiz, or quite a few other players. And unlike Netherlands, Michels' and Cruyff's total football philosophy only really took root in Barcelona. What you refer to as the Ajax school is not really even Ajax's alone, even if Michels experimented it there, and Ajax' appropriation of Cruyff makes it seem that way. Cruyff's influence is almost as much a factor in Feyenoord. And he is legendary around the country, with kids from Groningen to Maastricht wanting to be like him when they grew up in the 80s and 90s. And in fact, seeing as it's 50 years ago, we've had 2 generations of players grow up and start coaching since Michels' philosophy took hold and Cruyff perfected it. And those coaches have trained players in Feyenoord, AZ, Utrecht, Vitesse, Groningen or Twente. And even a lot has carried over to PSV, despite them always taking a different approach. A player can't grow up in any football academy in Holland without Cruyff's influence being felt. That same is not true in Spain, where Cruyff's influence doesn't even reach Espanyol, let alone Betis Sevilla or Athletic Bilbao. Or at least, it doesn't reach there any more or less than it does Dynamo Zagreb or Arsenal. Meanwhile Guardiola is just too recent and I'm not even sure how far his reach will be specific to Spain. Xavi is obviously a disciple, but right now the best way to train in Guardiola ball is from the man himself in Manchester! And beyond that, even if we look at the 2010 team, while Iniesta is no doubt a player kids want to emulate, so are Iker Casillas, Xabi Alonso or Sergio Ramos. And they spent 0 time at the Masia (even if Alonso may have picked up some Guardiola ball afterwards during his Munich stint). There is no single hero to emerge from the 2008-2012 period, like Cruyff emerged from the 70s teams of the Dutch back to back WC finals of 74 and 78. And yes, people will mention Neeskens, Keizer or the vd Kerkhof brothers, Cruyff is the embodiment of those teams, and his legacy permeates Dutch football. Anyway, this is a very long post to say that I disagree that Dani Olmo plays "less Spanish" than Nico Williams or even for that matter, Pedri. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18481 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18085 Posts
On July 08 2024 04:56 sharkie wrote: Well in England there are tons of different clubs and mentalities and yet the English national team has always played they same style till even now. So has the Spanish national team always played very similar style regardless of where the players came from. I'm not sure I agree. We just had a discussion a few pages back about national team's identities. Spain has definitely been consistent since their Euro winning squad of 2008, but they've evolved to be more direct, which was clearly necessary after their meandering aimlessness of 2014-2022. But that is all a very different football from the Spanish squad Raúl captained just two years before. Similarly this English squad doesn't really play similar football to Beckham's England under Capello. And this France looks more like Greece 2004 than France 1998. Brazil under Dunga's leadership had no Jogo Bonito, and the Dutch squad of 2010 was no total football. In fact, it looked positively German, with more of a Mannschaft work ethic on defense without possession and some lethal attackers (and mid fielders) who could turn any moment of possession into a lethal opportunity, rather than the "Dutch" 4-3-3 total football approach of possession and playing it forward coherently with intensive use of wingers to make the field broad. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28696 Posts
Looking it up, they're significantly less possession oriented in this championship than they have been before. Both vs Croatia and Germany they clocked in with sub 50% - 46 and 48% respectively. Vs Georgia they're at 75%, but that was a completely one-sided game. I watched a few of their games during the qualification (they were in Norway's group), and that was more of the 'old' Spain, with for example 75% in a 0-2 loss to Scotland. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25875 Posts
On July 07 2024 23:31 Acrofales wrote: But far from everybody in the Spanish team was exposed to the Masia education. In fact, Dani Olmo has more time in Barcelona's education program than Nico Williams, Fabián Ruiz, or quite a few other players. And unlike Netherlands, Michels' and Cruyff's total football philosophy only really took root in Barcelona. What you refer to as the Ajax school is not really even Ajax's alone, even if Michels experimented it there, and Ajax' appropriation of Cruyff makes it seem that way. Cruyff's influence is almost as much a factor in Feyenoord. And he is legendary around the country, with kids from Groningen to Maastricht wanting to be like him when they grew up in the 80s and 90s. And in fact, seeing as it's 50 years ago, we've had 2 generations of players grow up and start coaching since Michels' philosophy took hold and Cruyff perfected it. And those coaches have trained players in Feyenoord, AZ, Utrecht, Vitesse, Groningen or Twente. And even a lot has carried over to PSV, despite them always taking a different approach. A player can't grow up in any football academy in Holland without Cruyff's influence being felt. That same is not true in Spain, where Cruyff's influence doesn't even reach Espanyol, let alone Betis Sevilla or Athletic Bilbao. Or at least, it doesn't reach there any more or less than it does Dynamo Zagreb or Arsenal. Meanwhile Guardiola is just too recent and I'm not even sure how far his reach will be specific to Spain. Xavi is obviously a disciple, but right now the best way to train in Guardiola ball is from the man himself in Manchester! And beyond that, even if we look at the 2010 team, while Iniesta is no doubt a player kids want to emulate, so are Iker Casillas, Xabi Alonso or Sergio Ramos. And they spent 0 time at the Masia (even if Alonso may have picked up some Guardiola ball afterwards during his Munich stint). There is no single hero to emerge from the 2008-2012 period, like Cruyff emerged from the 70s teams of the Dutch back to back WC finals of 74 and 78. And yes, people will mention Neeskens, Keizer or the vd Kerkhof brothers, Cruyff is the embodiment of those teams, and his legacy permeates Dutch football. Anyway, this is a very long post to say that I disagree that Dani Olmo plays "less Spanish" than Nico Williams or even for that matter, Pedri. This, and the subsequent one were excellent posts, I don’t particularly disagree with any of that! By ‘Spanish football’ I’ve mostly been referring to the national side, rather than the totality of the nation’s football. And in general they have had an axis of real ball players, even diminutive ones that they build their midfield around, sometimes even the whole team. I don’t think it’s a particularly ideological commitment, they ended up with a lot of gifted players with those characteristics, figured that their best shot was to trust their strengths and what those players could do, and here we are. It’s been long enough now as a sort of consistent approach, that I guess it becomes self-perpetuating and that next generation are inspired to play that way, coaches will trust them etc etc. But yeah La Masia isn’t the only academy in Spain, nor is aping Barcelona the only style, but I think historically you could say that players like David Silva or Santi Cazorla also fit the template. Most European sides would have bit your arm off for even some of Spain’s ‘second string’ midfield back in the day! Currently, as with before where a coach can go ‘oh we’ve got loads of technical midfielders of top quality, let’s go with that’, now you’ve got some real quality wingers/pseudo 10s, and they’re trusting those guys too. What made Spain admirable but often ponderous to watch when they were dominating, and Barcelona sometimes thrilling despite ostensibly similar styles was always that Messi factor, someone to beat a man and break those lines. So to an extent they have a bit of that now and it makes a lot of sense to employ it. For all football is a massive game, with a huge pool of potential players, it’s curious how just a few players can make all the difference in shaping how nations approach the game. Not just European sides but, South American giants too. Brazil haven’t really produced a top class number 9 or too many real midfielders who can run a game in forever, plenty of great full backs and wide forwards though. Argentina haven’t produced too many absolute top notch midfielders or full backs or centre backs compared to a decade or two ago. One plausible theory I’ve heard on that front is how dominant Europe is economically is dictating how clubs develop and push players, I.e for the European export market. It’s a curious one for sure | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25875 Posts
Across the whole squad this lot may be an even better on paper bunch than any I’ve seen from the Portuguese in me time on this Earth, be it recent vintages or when Figo and Rui Costa were doing their thing. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player who’s so undroppable, to a ridiculous degree. Maddening even. And that’s coming from a relative neutral who has a soft spot for a few of your boys, not someone hardcore rooting for them. I’ve seen many a team keeping faith with a star player who’s struggling for form, or half-fit over the years, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player so indulged purely because of their profile and status. And I mean he could be an asset but playing him for every minute of every game, even a dead rubber, when he’s 39? He could start and have a deputy come on later, when legs are tiring and their added mobility would be advantageous, or alternatively have them run their socks off and then bring Ronaldo on and maybe he can find that little bit of extra space and bring his finishing quality to bear when he’s not knackered. What’s worse is him taking borderline every set piece and shooting from everywhere when: A - He’s not the best set piece taker in that side B - He’s maybe not quite as salmon-like in his leap as in his younger years but he’s still bloody good in the air, surely you want balls whipped into the area that he can attack? What’s doubly confusing is there’s a precedent to do this from the last World Cup, rather successfully so and the sky didn’t fall down, Ronaldo didn’t retire from the national team in a strop etc etc. Fernando Santos did Martinez’s hard work already! Look it would be unfair to blame Ronaldo entirely for Portugal’s exit, and I’m not, indeed I thought he looked decent at times albeit not top notch. But him playing every minute did seem rather detrimental to me. Hopefully not to bring another chapter in a long-tedious debate, but the only player with a similar profile around is Lionel Messi, maybe Mbappe to a lesser degree. But where the quest to deliver Messi a World Cup was seemingly higher on some Argentine players’ list of priorities than winning it for themselves and to an outside observer appeared to motivate and galvanise them, the Ronaldo show seems to almost paralyse the Portuguese at times. | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
I'll preface this by saying that by my country's standards, I "dont like football" and that is because I dont wage war over my club or feel the need to watch it play when it is playing bad, and because I say that our national team plays way below the value of its pieces and sometimes I rather watch spain (or a few years ago Netherlands) play. To be fair, unlike my countryman Football ranks somewhat 4th on the list of sports i enjoy. Ok so even on its golden days cronaldo was always 70/30 around here. 70% were all omg everyone needs to praise ronaldo regardless because he is our best ever player, you all are just jealous haters if you dont. while the other 30% were a mix of haters, people who do not enjoy his style and rather watch others (messi) or people who said he was more of a hindrance than helping the team, because others were afraid of not doing his thing and never be called back again. Discussion about cronaldo was not possible, you were either a ronaldete or a cronaldo hater. Last world cup Fernando Santos did his best contribution ever to our NT, benching old cronaldo. People complained etc but the result was there, we played a lot better and the final result was not impacted by him being out. The 70% went down, but not by much it just became a less noisy majority. At this point, if not before, it was already pretty much accepted by everyone but the diehard ronaldetes, that cronaldo having first pickings on every free kick etc did not make sense, but for some reason it keeps happening. For this I blame the coaches. Then came Martinez, instead of taking the hint, he tried to reform cronaldo, and at some point it did work to some extent. He was being an asset despite not scoring many goals and his stock went up again with the old 70% crowd, so support was there for him to be a starter in the Euro. Then the euro started and more and more voices (even on commentators on TV which is unheard of before) started saying that Cronaldo is no longer the type of player that can play and start every game. but the crowd of the "omg he is our best ever" is back to being very noisy everywhere and there is always a very careful way in media to review cronaldo, apart from some signature commentary that are less concerned about the potential backlash. Even considering the amount of chances missed. Now that we are out, cronaldo is kind of out of the conversation. People say we did our best but it was still our nightmare team to play against in France. So media quickly shifted to summer transfer window for the clubs, specially as the big clubs started their pre-season coincidently on the day after our elimination or very close to it. Today is a lot easier to find someone agreeing that cronaldo makes the team worse because the others instead of actually playing are compeled to pass the ball to him out of fear of not beeing called back again, or because they are forced into a system to favour him despite him not scoring enough to warrant that. But I would argue that at best we are 50/50 on public opinion on him. The other side always argues that this is not cronaldos doing, its the full team problem because this is not our best 11 or team, this is "Jorge Mends and friends NT". So even when it happens, even though today is a lot more possible to have a discussion about it, any fault of cronaldo is very quickly dismissed and blame shifted everywhere else. But again, very little was written or discussed about our elimination, attention shifted almost right away to club football. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6972 Posts
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gTank
Austria2584 Posts
On July 08 2024 18:14 Harris1st wrote: I hope Spain takes it all in a dominating fashion. How some teams who refuse to play football are still in this, is beyond me. Never forget EM highlights such as Greece back then or Portugal. Sometimes playing ugly and very boring can get you the win. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6972 Posts
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sharkie
Austria18481 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On July 08 2024 18:19 gTank wrote: Never forget EM highlights such as Greece back then or Portugal. Sometimes playing ugly and very boring can get you the win. Yeah we lost against greece in the final for 2004 where we were playing great and only got our revenge "doing a greece" in 2016. It was atrocious for us to see, i cannot imagine how it must have felt for others. | ||
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