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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 12 2021 11:49 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So does anyone have any reason why Southgate chose a 19 year old with no experience taking penalties was subbed on just take a penalty...?
No kid should have that pressure put on him. I don't think Rashford has that much experience either..?
You can't force players to kick the penalties and while many are fine taking an ordinary penalty plenty refuse to shoot the shootout. Source> plenty coaches as hosts in the studio w/e the shootout happens. No names were called but some said pretty clearly that there were excellent strikers who just refused to go to shoot. What then? You want to publically humiliate them? Force them? It's better to choose players who have the courage to say they will do it.
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Still not of any importance but after an okay night of sleep I think that Maehle should've won player of the tournament.
I think the penalty-decision would've been okay if Sancho and Rashford would've been subbed on at latest at minute 105 or if they weren't ignored all tournament. But like this... nah.
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I don't have an issue with letting youngsters do penalties but much more with subbing people who didn't play and were "cold". And this basically multiplies the pressure tenfold on those guys as well
I do understand however why Sterling didn't take a penalty. He probably would have dived over the ball...
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On July 12 2021 09:55 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 09:38 Faruko wrote:
Harry Kane continuos to be an incredibly overrated player because he scores 300 goals vs terrible teams.
Also, southgate needs to go, any manager that has Grealish on the bench needs to go He just got us to our first final in 55 years and has improved every time.
His results have been good but his playstyle is very boring. It'd be nice if he could change that up considering the talent England has.
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On July 12 2021 18:18 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 09:55 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 12 2021 09:38 Faruko wrote:
Harry Kane continuos to be an incredibly overrated player because he scores 300 goals vs terrible teams.
Also, southgate needs to go, any manager that has Grealish on the bench needs to go He just got us to our first final in 55 years and has improved every time. His results have been good but his playstyle is very boring. It'd be nice if he could change that up considering the talent England has.
Yeah, the English performance has been way more entertaining in the last decades. Watching them winning sucks. Fire the manager and get someone who honors the English tradition!
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 12 2021 18:33 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 18:18 RvB wrote:On July 12 2021 09:55 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 12 2021 09:38 Faruko wrote:
Harry Kane continuos to be an incredibly overrated player because he scores 300 goals vs terrible teams.
Also, southgate needs to go, any manager that has Grealish on the bench needs to go He just got us to our first final in 55 years and has improved every time. His results have been good but his playstyle is very boring. It'd be nice if he could change that up considering the talent England has. Yeah, the English performance has been way more entertaining in the last decades. Watching them winning sucks. Fire the manager and get someone who honors the English tradition!
THey lost on penalties and didn't get the title, what other traditions are there besides that?
Fans arguing about the manager being stupid - check.
Fans expecting the title - check.
Losing on penalties - check.
No title - check.
Threats to those who missed - check.
All traditions are being followed no matter how horrible they are.
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On July 12 2021 18:18 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 09:55 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 12 2021 09:38 Faruko wrote:
Harry Kane continuos to be an incredibly overrated player because he scores 300 goals vs terrible teams.
Also, southgate needs to go, any manager that has Grealish on the bench needs to go He just got us to our first final in 55 years and has improved every time. His results have been good but his playstyle is very boring. It'd be nice if he could change that up considering the talent England has.
They do have some incredible good and fast paced attackers. On the other hand, their current playstyle almost won them a gold medal so I really don't see them changing much
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On July 12 2021 17:31 bluzi wrote:
GG to Italy , this thread is full with so much hindsight its crazy , you can go back in history and see young kickers do extremely well while the old guard failing , examples are all over the place with Robert Baggio , Embape this euro (the mega star of this generation) , Terry in the champions league final and the list goes on and on , I rather have a great technical kid that I know can kick a good penalty kick then having an experienced player that is not a good penalty kicker , sure having both is ideal but if you think the experienced player does not feel the immense pressure of the kick you are delusional if anything the young kids can sometimes handle pressure better as they have less experience in losing big games and the depression that comes after that , if anything the young guns are usually brash and overconfident , not the other way around.
Yeah but letting a 19 year old take the 5th penalty in a do or die situation in front of your home crowd? If he thought Saka was up to the task put him 2nd or something, hindsight is 20-20 but that was just wayyy to much pressure on an inexperienced player.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 12 2021 18:46 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 17:31 bluzi wrote:
GG to Italy , this thread is full with so much hindsight its crazy , you can go back in history and see young kickers do extremely well while the old guard failing , examples are all over the place with Robert Baggio , Embape this euro (the mega star of this generation) , Terry in the champions league final and the list goes on and on , I rather have a great technical kid that I know can kick a good penalty kick then having an experienced player that is not a good penalty kicker , sure having both is ideal but if you think the experienced player does not feel the immense pressure of the kick you are delusional if anything the young kids can sometimes handle pressure better as they have less experience in losing big games and the depression that comes after that , if anything the young guns are usually brash and overconfident , not the other way around. Yeah but letting a 19 year old take the 5th penalty in a do or die situation in front of your home crowd? If he thought Saka was up to the task put him 2nd or something, hindsight is 20-20 but that was just wayyy to much pressure on an inexperienced player.
Uhm, you don't know if there were better choices.
I remembered one great example of similar situation. Back in 1999 Sparta had a chance to advance to the Champions League. Considering the reward for playing in the groups was bakc then huge (and still is), nobody couldn't understand why he chose young inexperienced players over veterans and excellent strikers. Some years later Ščasný told in an interview - and what was I supposed to do? You know what those veterans players did? They refused to go on the shootout and some even took off their shoes! I'm not gonna force somebody to go to shoot a penalty if they're in such state. So I sent the players who told me - coach, I can take it.
And yes, Sparta didn't make it.
So how do you know there were better choices? 5th penalty is really hard to shot - yes, so is the first. We can argue about switching MacGuire and Saka but we don't know if he would have scored as convincingly and if didn't say to Southgate that he's fine with the penalty as long as he's not the last.
Edit> Also Donaruma is a fucking giant so he makes the penalties even riskier, as it seems he can catch even a well placed kick to the side. You can't train that against Pickford who's like an ant next to Donaruma. (well, everybody is  )
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Northern Ireland25484 Posts
On July 12 2021 18:18 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 09:55 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 12 2021 09:38 Faruko wrote:
Harry Kane continuos to be an incredibly overrated player because he scores 300 goals vs terrible teams.
Also, southgate needs to go, any manager that has Grealish on the bench needs to go He just got us to our first final in 55 years and has improved every time. His results have been good but his playstyle is very boring. It'd be nice if he could change that up considering the talent England has.
Basically nobody plays consistently good football at international level anymore, if more teams did I’d hold this more against Southgate. If England could keep playing the level they showed first half of the final that would be pretty decent, best I’ve seen them play in a high stakes game for a long time.
Mancini’s managed to get Italy ticking and it seems likely Flick will improve Germany a ton.
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Northern Ireland25484 Posts
On July 12 2021 18:18 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 09:55 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 12 2021 09:38 Faruko wrote:
Harry Kane continuos to be an incredibly overrated player because he scores 300 goals vs terrible teams.
Also, southgate needs to go, any manager that has Grealish on the bench needs to go He just got us to our first final in 55 years and has improved every time. His results have been good but his playstyle is very boring. It'd be nice if he could change that up considering the talent England has.
Basically nobody plays consistently good football at international level anymore, if more teams did I’d hold this more against Southgate. If England could keep playing the level they showed first half of the final that would be pretty decent, best I’ve seen them play in a high stakes game for a long time.
Mancini’s managed to get Italy properly ticking and it seems likely Flick will improve Germany a ton I imagine. France surely can’t be worse next time and Portugal have a lot more to give. Belgium haven’t truly delivered on their talent, but they may have enough to give it another shot. The Copa America final wasn’t a feast on the eyes either.
World Cup is exciting and terrifying at the same time, bring it on!
Feeling less disappointed today given the predictable and depressing racially charged abuse England’s penalty missers are getting. Pathetic
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France12886 Posts
How come taking penalties like iirc. Bonucci and Rashford is allowed? They basically "stop" (arguably they slow A LOT but don't stop, lmao), doesn't seem fair and it made me very glad Rashford miss because that's basically cheating.
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You're allowed to slow down, but not completely stop. Some players hop instead of just slowing down (eg. Fernandes). I don't think it's cheating, but it does add a timing aspect that makes it more difficult for the keeper. But it's by no means a guarantee to score, as you saw.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 12 2021 21:30 Poopi wrote:
How come taking penalties like iirc. Bonucci and Rashford is allowed? They basically "stop" (arguably they slow A LOT but don't stop, lmao), doesn't seem fair and it made me very glad Rashford miss because that's basically cheating.
You can ask similarily how come that defending the ball going out is allowed for longer times. The defending player has no intent to play the ball and denies the opportunity to play the other player. Yet it's allowed.
Edit> Some rules are more a guideline than a strict rule. A good example is the 6-second hand control for GK. Almost every GK holds at some point the ball for longer than those 6 seconds but rarely you see a punishment  It's just a precaution to see some goalies to hold the ball for 30 seconds or so.
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Nah it was some racist shit. You can google how the original thing looked. It's NSFW
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On July 12 2021 18:45 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 18:18 RvB wrote:On July 12 2021 09:55 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 12 2021 09:38 Faruko wrote:
Harry Kane continuos to be an incredibly overrated player because he scores 300 goals vs terrible teams.
Also, southgate needs to go, any manager that has Grealish on the bench needs to go He just got us to our first final in 55 years and has improved every time. His results have been good but his playstyle is very boring. It'd be nice if he could change that up considering the talent England has. They do have some incredible good and fast paced attackers. On the other hand, their current playstyle almost won them a gold medal so I really don't see them changing much
Yes I doubt they'll change it. It'll stop working eventually though and then you have nothing left. No results and no good football.
On July 12 2021 20:56 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 18:18 RvB wrote:On July 12 2021 09:55 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 12 2021 09:38 Faruko wrote:
Harry Kane continuos to be an incredibly overrated player because he scores 300 goals vs terrible teams.
Also, southgate needs to go, any manager that has Grealish on the bench needs to go He just got us to our first final in 55 years and has improved every time. His results have been good but his playstyle is very boring. It'd be nice if he could change that up considering the talent England has. Basically nobody plays consistently good football at international level anymore, if more teams did I’d hold this more against Southgate. If England could keep playing the level they showed first half of the final that would be pretty decent, best I’ve seen them play in a high stakes game for a long time. Mancini’s managed to get Italy properly ticking and it seems likely Flick will improve Germany a ton I imagine. France surely can’t be worse next time and Portugal have a lot more to give. Belgium haven’t truly delivered on their talent, but they may have enough to give it another shot. The Copa America final wasn’t a feast on the eyes either. World Cup is exciting and terrifying at the same time, bring it on! Feeling less disappointed today given the predictable and depressing racially charged abuse England’s penalty missers are getting. Pathetic
There's a difference between trying to play good football and failing at that sometimes and playing defensively all game hoping for a goal. Italy, Spain, Denmark, The Netherlands for example all tried to play good football but failed at it sometimes (we were so bad against Czech :/). All those countries actually have less quality up front than England imo. England hardly attempts to play good football otherwise you wouldn't play with 4 backs and 2 DMs.
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Northern Ireland25484 Posts
On July 13 2021 00:06 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 18:45 Harris1st wrote:On July 12 2021 18:18 RvB wrote:On July 12 2021 09:55 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 12 2021 09:38 Faruko wrote:
Harry Kane continuos to be an incredibly overrated player because he scores 300 goals vs terrible teams.
Also, southgate needs to go, any manager that has Grealish on the bench needs to go He just got us to our first final in 55 years and has improved every time. His results have been good but his playstyle is very boring. It'd be nice if he could change that up considering the talent England has. They do have some incredible good and fast paced attackers. On the other hand, their current playstyle almost won them a gold medal so I really don't see them changing much Yes I doubt they'll change it. It'll stop working eventually though and then you have nothing left. No results and no good football. Show nested quote +On July 12 2021 20:56 WombaT wrote:On July 12 2021 18:18 RvB wrote:On July 12 2021 09:55 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 12 2021 09:38 Faruko wrote:
Harry Kane continuos to be an incredibly overrated player because he scores 300 goals vs terrible teams.
Also, southgate needs to go, any manager that has Grealish on the bench needs to go He just got us to our first final in 55 years and has improved every time. His results have been good but his playstyle is very boring. It'd be nice if he could change that up considering the talent England has. Basically nobody plays consistently good football at international level anymore, if more teams did I’d hold this more against Southgate. If England could keep playing the level they showed first half of the final that would be pretty decent, best I’ve seen them play in a high stakes game for a long time. Mancini’s managed to get Italy properly ticking and it seems likely Flick will improve Germany a ton I imagine. France surely can’t be worse next time and Portugal have a lot more to give. Belgium haven’t truly delivered on their talent, but they may have enough to give it another shot. The Copa America final wasn’t a feast on the eyes either. World Cup is exciting and terrifying at the same time, bring it on! Feeling less disappointed today given the predictable and depressing racially charged abuse England’s penalty missers are getting. Pathetic There's a difference between trying to play good football and failing at that sometimes and playing defensively all game hoping for a goal. Italy, Spain, Denmark, The Netherlands for example all tried to play good football but failed at it sometimes (we were so bad against Czech :/). All those countries actually have less quality up front than England imo. England hardly attempts to play good football otherwise you wouldn't play with 4 backs and 2 DMs.
England’s system isn’t all that different from how Italy go about things, if there’s one cog England lack it’s a Verrati/Jorginho style tempo player, which would help a lot in England rebalancing their midfield a bit. Or maybe if Bellingham matures England have that real all-round midfielder like a Gerrard to be more positive.
They’ve got an embarrassment of riches up front and could be more adventurous than they are, although I will still say that first 30-40 minutes is up there with the best I’ve seen England play in a properly big game.
The next step very much is to incorporate those more exciting attacking players and be a bit more positive without sacrificing solidity.
Depends on who moves where this summer too, international coaches don’t have the time to properly drill teams, so if a Grealish or a Kane ends up at Man City playing alongside England team mates every week, maybe that’ll help in some way in getting Southgate to be more adventurous.
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Norway28674 Posts
I enjoyed watching England. Wish Sancho and Grealish got more playtime - sure - but especially Rice was fantastic and the more I watched them play the more I was okay with Southgate's choices.
They also got the best championship performance of the past 55 years, and they played an even game (match statistics tell a slightly different story but are colored by England taking such an early lead) with an Italian team pretty unanimously agreed to have been top dogs of the tournament.
For teams or nations with no history of winning or of trophies, result-oriented football is fine, and even appreciated by their supporters as long as it gets results. But the more recent success you have, the more expectations there are that the football should be 'independently attractive' to boot.
Basically the hierarchy of performance is the following:
Offensive football producing good results > defensive football producing good results > offensive football producing bad results > defensive football producing bad results. England is in the second group. Italy and Denmark are the only two teams in the first group. So ya, as someone who cheered for England - if they swapped Phillips for Sancho/Grealish and played free-flowing chaotic football with 3-2 scorelines instead, I'd be happy about it right up until the point where they lost against Denmark, at which point I'd be less happy with it than I am now. (Or, they'd beat Denmark, in which case I'd be even happier.)
Anyway, I'm content. Italy are worthy champions, and it's the most sympathetic Italian team I've ever seen, both in terms of how they play and how they behave. England are worthy runner-ups, and they should be even better in 4 years.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/11C29/production/_119354727_tv068555974.jpg)
