Of course I had to get to a new page when I'm making a passing reference. D:
On August 18 2015 03:39 Numy wrote: Holy shit this is amazing. Well it's incredibly disgusting at first but then amazing. + Show Spoiler +
'cause Jesus he knows me~
Not really excited by these mechanics tbh. Is Ally a creature type that's used so they give each other advantages when tapped (ally commits, etc.)? + Show Spoiler [duels musings] +
Meanwhile I look at Origins' cards and I kinda weep because I'm not sure if there's a good way to make WB enchant work in duels. Red is so prominent and its removal is super good so it's hard to avoid getting 2-for-1'd. Granted, I'm asking for it, running both low-cost creatures and a bunch of enchantments, which makes them easy to remove (and 2-for-1 too when instant-speed removal is cast on a creature I try to enchant) and also easy for me to lose steam if I don't draw a bunch of creatures. Maybe I should switch my deck around and try something more midrange in terms of creatures, subbing in Heliod's Disciples so I can lower my enchant count for more creatures (easier to get good starting hands), and generally 3+ thoughness creatures so I don't get dicked by goblins and Red removal (or at least force a 2-for-1 in my favour for once). I'd prob take more damage, and I'd lack the Child of the Night's lifelink to save my hide, but it's worth a try.
Then again, if I don't run the children I'm not sure what use I have of B instead of going full W aggro/enchant. But I like Black's mechanics. Feels like I'm shooting myself in the foot and trying to hard to make something happen when it's just bad.
More technical question: how do damage and bonus "till end of turn" get resolved? I noticed after granting a temporary +1/+1 to a creature so I could trade with another that the bonus wore off before the damage, so my 3/1 turned into a 2/0 and promptly died. Is that how it works, or is it duels' priority I heard people complaining about? It makes the sorcery-speed bonuses a lot less interesting when I care about keeping stuff alive.
Damage removal and removing "until end of turn" effects happens simultaneously during the cleanup step. State-based actions (e.g. checking whether a creature should die due to damage) shouldn't get checked until after both have happened.
Either you're not describing the situation specifically enough, or it's an Origins bug.
You also need to be clear about the distinction between damage and toughness modifications. Damage does not reduce toughness, it's just that a creature is destroyed if damage taken equals toughness.
A 3/1 that becomes a 2/0 would die. But a 3/3 with 2 damage on it that becomes a 2/2 with no damage on it survives. The two aren't the same.
On August 18 2015 05:09 Dandel Ion wrote: specific enough, duels a shit
Yes but a scenario like that wouldn't happen under normal circumstances, and even though duels is shit, it's mechanics aren't buggy. I've never had something not function the way it was supposed to.
2/2 creature gets buffed to 3/3 because I want to kill his 2-strength creature without dying. He blocks, although it surprises me a bit. I have a 2/2 creature with a temporary +1/+1 and 2 damage counters on it. Comes the end phase, I briefly see my creature become a 2/2 with 2 damage markers on it (the game shows it as 2/0, with the toughness number in red because it has damage counters or stat maluses) and it immediatly gets sent into the graveyard.
I thought it was logical in that moment (the guy blocked, so figured he might have expected this and not just suicided his creature), but now I'm wondering if it makes sense because what's the point of buffing my creature's toughness then (save to survive instant-speed removal before combat resolution and still hit something)? I guess it comes from duels. Also screw Red, it's really hard to play creatures one at a time to try and bait his removal before I can try to build-up, without my opponent drawing into some more removal or getting sufficient additional face damage from it that I just die. :< Gotta try RG or BR myself I think.
On August 18 2015 05:09 TheYango wrote: You also need to be clear about the distinction between damage and toughness modifications. Damage does not reduce toughness, it's just that a creature is destroyed if damage taken equals toughness.
A 3/1 that becomes a 2/0 would die. But a 3/3 with 2 damage on it that becomes a 2/2 with no damage on it survives. The two aren't the same.
Just to add emphasis to this:
A creature that becomes a 2/0 will be put into the Graveyard as a state based effect because it no longer has a valid toughness. Special abilities such as Indestructible, Regeneration, etc. don't matter. From the Comprehensive Rules:
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.
Let's say you have a creature with base 1/1 stats. You give it a temporary effect of +2/+2 and there is two damage marked on the card at the same time. Because the damage on the card does not exceed its toughness, it is not considered lethal damage. Therefore it does not die. At the end of turn during the Cleanup Phase both the damage and the temporary buff are removed at the same time. From the Comprehensive Rules:
514.2. Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents (including phased-out permanents) is removed and all “until end of turn” and “this turn” effects end. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack.
514.1 refers to discarding down to 7 cards in hand if you have more than 7 cards in hand so it's not relevant here.
On August 18 2015 05:23 Alaric wrote: 2/2 creature gets buffed to 3/3 because I want to kill his 2-strength creature without dying. He blocks, although it surprises me a bit. I have a 2/2 creature with a temporary +1/+1 and 2 damage counters on it. Comes the end phase, I briefly see my creature become a 2/2 with 2 damage markers on it (the game shows it as 2/0, with the toughness number in red because it has damage counters or stat maluses) and it immediatly gets sent into the graveyard.
Now this just sounds like really shoddy coding lmao. Damage does not reduce toughness. Damage should be marked on the card (normally done mentally) and compared against toughness. Shouldn't be a thing that happens.
On August 18 2015 04:06 Alaric wrote: Is that how it works, or is it duels' priority I heard people complaining about? It makes the sorcery-speed bonuses a lot less interesting when I care about keeping stuff alive.
Priority doesn't really matter when it comes to handling things such as damage because lethal damage and being sent to the Graveyard are state based effects that don't use the stack. As these don't use the stack, they cannot be responded to and therefore priority is irrelevant. Priority only refers to when players can cast spells or activate abilities and add them onto the stack.
On August 18 2015 05:28 TheYango wrote: Sounds like Duels bug unless the +1/+1 comes from something that's not a simple "until end of turn" effect.
Eh find it hard to believe its a bug. User error more likely. Although it is true duels dsiplays damage on a creature as a loss of toughness, I can confirm that blocking and damage still absolutely functions as it's supposed to.
On August 18 2015 05:09 TheYango wrote: You also need to be clear about the distinction between damage and toughness modifications. Damage does not reduce toughness, it's just that a creature is destroyed if damage taken equals toughness.
A 3/1 that becomes a 2/0 would die. But a 3/3 with 2 damage on it that becomes a 2/2 with no damage on it survives. The two aren't the same.
Just to add emphasis to this:
A creature that becomes a 2/0 will be put into the Graveyard as a state based effect because it no longer has a valid toughness. Special abilities such as Indestructible, Regeneration, etc. don't matter. From the Comprehensive Rules:
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.
So, for example, Gideon's 3rd ability, which turns him into a 4/4 Human Soldier creature with Indestructible, and "prevent damage that should be inflicted to him this turn" would still be removed from play if, say, you feel like casting Languish at the same time, as it isn't damage and indestructible doesn't protect from this?
(I'm sure the fact that it's "until the end of turn" and that he remains a planeswalker at the same time screws with this somehow.)
On August 18 2015 05:35 Alaric wrote: So, for example, Gideon's 3rd ability, which turns him into a 4/4 Human Soldier creature with Indestructible, and "prevent damage that should be inflicted to him this turn" would still be removed from play if, say, you feel like casting Languish at the same time, as it isn't damage and indestructible doesn't protect from this?
(I'm sure the fact that it's "until the end of turn" and that he remains a planeswalker at the same time screws with this somehow.)
Correct. That being said, it's rather atypical for Languish (which is a Sorcery) to be cast by your opponent during your turn since Gideon isn't a creature during theirs! (Not impossible though.)
Let's assume we substitute in Flatten instead. So how would this work then?
Your opponent activates the 0 ability of Gideon, Battle-Forged and he becomes a 4/4 Indestructible creature until end of turn.
While Gideon is still a creature, you cast Flatten.
We assume your opponent doesn't do anything in response and this spell resolves. Gideon has -4/-4 applied to him and becomes a 0/0 crature. Flatten has now finished resolving and is placed into the Graveyard.
The stack is now clear. State based actions are now checked. The game notices that Gideon is a 0/0 creature and this isn't allowed. Gideon, Battle-Forged is placed into its owner's Graveyard. It incidentally also flips back into Kytheon, Hero of Akros.
State based actions have finished. Priority returns to the Active Player.
... now you've got to tell me how come he flips back, though. @_@ That's the first time I've seen that mentioned. Or do you mean that if a player was to forage through the graveyard, Kytheon and not Gideon would be the available card?
On August 18 2015 06:01 Alaric wrote: ... now you've got to tell me how come he flips back, though. @_@ That's the first time I've seen that mentioned. Or do you mean that if a player was to forage through the graveyard, Kytheon and not Gideon would be the available card?
711.4a While a double-faced card is outside the game, in a zone other than the battlefield, or on the battlefield with its front face up, it has only the characteristics of its front face.
Basically, a double-faced card is only ever its "normal" version when it's not in play.
In honour of the new movie chronicling the legendary tales of NWA. I want to post a song that's near and dear to me. A song that keeps it real(except for Dre, Dre is a studio gangster.) A song that pulls no punches. Listen to Ice Cube's soothing voice as he pulls back the curtains to reveal the struggles of the street.
EPT
Feels like I'm shooting myself in the foot and trying to hard to make something happen when it's just bad.
