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On July 26 2015 04:36 AlterKot wrote:
Marvel - flashy colors, cool stuff happening, hype.
Melee - Jigglypuff jumping off the ledge and grabbing it again. People get hit I guess but the characters are so small you don't even see the animation of moves.
I'm biased because I played Marvel much more than Melee but I definitely agree with him on that.
Elena build meter and heal.
On July 26 2015 03:48 onlywonderboy wrote:I think my least favorite part of Evo is when podcasts I listen to talk about it and they talk down on Melee  Although I think the funniest thing I heard was when Alex Navarro on the Giant Beastcast talked about Melee being hard to watch for an outsider and then right on to praise how watchable MVC3 was lol.
Its not so much the fact that they hate the game as much as they hate the game without understanding it and by that merit not recognizing its competitive value.
I mean I hate smash 4 doesn't mean its not competitive even if its as "free" as MKX.
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United States23745 Posts
I guess, but from on outsider perspective what's actually happening is basically unreadable. I guess the hype overshadows that for a lot of casual fans.
Also yes, every game of Smash has Jigglypuff in it 
Edit: I think that lack of health bar is what turns off a lot of casual fans from Melee which I find funny because that's my favorite part about it.
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On July 26 2015 04:36 AlterKot wrote:
Marvel - flashy colors, more flashy colours, some big flashes, ???
Melee - Jigglypuff jumping off the ledge and grabbing it again. People get hit I guess but the characters are so small you don't even see the animation of moves.
ftfy
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On July 26 2015 04:36 AlterKot wrote:
Marvel - flashy colors, cool stuff happening, hype.
Melee - Jigglypuff jumping off the ledge and grabbing it again. People get hit I guess but the characters are so small you don't even see the animation of moves.
I'm biased because I played Marvel much more than Melee but I definitely agree with him on that.
It's not so much it's difficult to understand what's going on in Melee, it's difficult to understand what's interesting about it and get bored.
Really? I found marvel absolutely trash to watch as it was just flashy lights and colours 24/7. Melee was pretty easy to watch compared to any of the other fighting games.
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I hate puff.
Like I want to like hbox as a person, but puff just excentuates the one thing about melee that makes it soo fucking bad to play and watch. Melee would be a perfect game if they just banned the low tier puff, or put a stop to the whole m2k/hbox ledge stall bullshit lol.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 26 2015 04:36 AlterKot wrote:
People get hit I guess but the characters are so small you don't even see the animation of moves.
I can sort of get this argument but the moveset is largely small enough that outside of a few specific characters, I feel like almost all the moves are distinct enough for this to not be a problem.
On July 26 2015 05:01 Cixah wrote:
I hate puff.
Like I want to like hbox as a person, but puff just excentuates the one thing about melee that makes it soo fucking bad to play and watch. Melee would be a perfect game if they just banned the low tier puff, or put a stop to the whole m2k/hbox ledge stall bullshit lol.
I'm pretty generally unacquainted with fighting games but as an uninitiated spectator, I really don't get the vitriol against defensive/campy playstyles. So long as they aren't a systemic issue of the game and are isolated to a few players/characters, isn't the diversity better for the competitive health of the game as a whole?
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meh watching jiggs isn't that bad and it certainly beats out the possibility of watching nothing but fox dittos.
if someone can be successful with any character that isn't fox atm then good on them.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 26 2015 05:06 Frolossus wrote:
meh watching jiggs isn't that bad and it certainty beats out the possibility of watching nothing but fox dittos.
if someone can be successful with any character that isn't fox atm then good on them.
I felt this as well, lol.
I'd rather see low tiers like amsa's Yoshi do well, but I'll still take diversity over homogeneity.
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On July 26 2015 05:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2015 04:36 AlterKot wrote:
People get hit I guess but the characters are so small you don't even see the animation of moves.
I can sort of get this argument but the moveset is largely small enough that outside of a few specific characters, I feel like almost all the moves are distinct enough for this to not be a problem. Show nested quote +On July 26 2015 05:01 Cixah wrote:
I hate puff.
Like I want to like hbox as a person, but puff just excentuates the one thing about melee that makes it soo fucking bad to play and watch. Melee would be a perfect game if they just banned the low tier puff, or put a stop to the whole m2k/hbox ledge stall bullshit lol. I'm pretty generally unacquainted with fighting games but as an uninitiated spectator, I really don't get the vitriol against defensive/campy playstyles. So long as they aren't a systemic issue of the game and are isolated to a few players/characters, isn't the diversity better for the competitive health of the game as a whole?
Yes.
But that doesn't mean he's not a fucking tool and deserves to be burned for his sins. After all, he's losing part of his soul and the only thing left to do is put him out of his misery.
In all seriousness, camping is just bad to watch. The game isn't designed with it in mind, and when a character's data let's them have 2.5 the number of jumps as you and reusable I frames it becomes a nightmare to attempt to stop. Armada found a way to do it, and it will likely be the go to approach vs hboxs strat in the future. But to say that its good for the game and for spectators should be shot on sight for their wrong opinion.
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Mind you I'm trying to look at it from perspective of someone who just decided to tune in and see what all this Evo rage is all about. Obviously it changes depending on how far deep are you into both of them.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 26 2015 05:12 Cixah wrote:
In all seriousness, camping is just bad to watch. The game isn't designed with it in mind, and when a character's data let's them have 2.5 the number of jumps as you and reusable I frames it becomes a nightmare to attempt to stop. Armada found a way to do it, and it will likely be the go to approach vs hboxs strat in the future. But to say that its good for the game and for spectators should be shot on sight for their wrong opinion.
You say this like he isn't literally the only successful player playing this way.
Also, saying "the game isn't designed with it in mind" is a little silly given how far everything about modern competitive Melee is from the game's design.
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On July 26 2015 05:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2015 05:12 Cixah wrote:
In all seriousness, camping is just bad to watch. The game isn't designed with it in mind, and when a character's data let's them have 2.5 the number of jumps as you and reusable I frames it becomes a nightmare to attempt to stop. Armada found a way to do it, and it will likely be the go to approach vs hboxs strat in the future. But to say that its good for the game and for spectators should be shot on sight for their wrong opinion.
You say this like he isn't literally the only successful player playing this way.
Just because one person commits murder doesn't make it right or acceptable.
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United States47024 Posts
You just made a compared HBox's playstyle to committing murder...
I'm fucking done, whatever.
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On July 26 2015 03:23 TheYango wrote:
Wave, was Magic 2014 any good?
It was decent ish.
I can't tell what it would be like from the perspective of a complete newcomer though. Probably better and more effective actually.
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On July 26 2015 03:29 Numy wrote:
Yanger when you said you going to ask wave I thought you meant through some kind of IM. Posting in the lounge is something I could have done just as easily dammit!
Wave I doubt I'll be able to catch you today. I hardly slept last night so most likely going to crash the whole morning. How is your sunday looking?
My schedule is the same every day essentially. Im never available during the day unfortunately which would make hanging out with you kind of difficult unless you can stay up late.
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Because from a tournament viewers perspective, someone who plays in tournaments against him, and from the perspective of the organizer his play style does nothing but make games take the full 8 minutes and often run the full gambit of games. If you look at all the top 8s at evo alone, melee took the longest by a whole hour more. With hboxs matches being the ones with the most on screen time by a total of 45 more minutes than the other average players.
If you look at matches with out hbox, they take well under 15 minutes per each other match that doesn't involve puff characters due to not having her inate weakness of dying at low percents. That and because the characters were actually engaging in combat due to not having her insane strength of surviving at high percents.
My only complaint doesn't come from the length of game or her ability to survive insanely, it also comes from the ability of the character to just trade stocks. Up throw, jab, s-hop rest will often gain you the ko, but will also likely get you KO'd in response. Because the normal comeback mechanic of damage staying after death not sticking around now being a moot point due to this trade, it becomes incredibly difficult for a character to break a lead that the puff player has, and because the listed above combo is only usable on most of the cast at sub 30%, the trade works more in her favor anyway. Not to mention the fact that because she doesn't want to engage you in combat due to her fragility, it also makes the player want to camp harder.
Now the idea of having a more diverse lineup is a great idea and overall healthy for the scene. Yes I agree, but puff isn't healthy for the game. Even if one player is playing it, all it does it cause viewers to be less engaged with what's going on during the matches. Ledge stalling got banned in brawl for a reason, and it was often due to these shenanigans.
Edit: Melee doesn't get patch options either so it has to be resolved by the community, and there isn't an outside governing body to determine if this should be removed or not. The fact that people are okay with that style when inately makes things just take 30 minutes longer is just absurd, there is no way things can be done in a timely fashion if youballow for this style of play to continue.
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On July 26 2015 05:35 Cixah wrote:
Because from a tournament viewers perspective, someone who plays in tournaments against him, and from the perspective of the organizer his play style does nothing but make games take the full 8 minutes and often run the full gambit of games. If you look at all the top 8s at evo alone, melee took the longest by a whole hour more. With hboxs matches being the ones with the most on screen time by a total of 45 more minutes than the other average players.
If you look at matches with out hbox, they take well under 15 minutes per each other match that doesn't involve puff characters due to not having her inate weakness of dying at low percents. That and because the characters were actually engaging in combat due to not having her insane strength of surviving at high percents.
My only complaint doesn't come from the length of game or her ability to survive insanely, it also comes from the ability of the character to just trade stocks. Up throw, jab, s-hop rest will often gain you the ko, but will also likely get you KO'd in response. Because the normal comeback mechanic of damage staying after death not sticking around now being a moot point due to this trade, it becomes incredibly difficult for a character to break a lead that the puff player has, and because the listed above combo is only usable on most of the cast at sub 30%, the trade works more in her favor anyway. Not to mention the fact that because she doesn't want to engage you in combat due to her fragility, it also makes the player want to camp harder.
Now the idea of having a more diverse lineup is a great idea and overall healthy for the scene. Yes I agree, but puff isn't healthy for the game. Even if one player is playing it, all it does it cause viewers to be less engaged with what's going on during the matches. Ledge stalling got banned in brawl for a reason, and it was often due to these shenanigans.
Edit: Melee doesn't get patch options either so it has to be resolved by the community, and there isn't an outside governing body to determine if this should be removed or not. The fact that people are okay with that style when inately makes things just take 30 minutes longer is just absurd, there is no way things can be done in a timely fashion if youballow for this style of play to continue.
there is a governing body, the melee back room.
i think that the game is in the healthiest state it's ever been in as someone who has been watching it for almost 10 years.
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Well you could technically change the time limit to 6 or less minutes, but that would be bad. In any case I'm very much against banning something because it makes for worse viewing experience, tournaments should for players first and viewers 100th.
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Geez its been like 3 tournaments where its been used and its far less safe than shino stalling, firefox stalling or haxdashing. Surprised your not talking about banning shiek.
In fact even in those games where it was used the gain was minimal for anything and generally he lost % doing it. There are rules in place to stop excessive stalling but it questionable if its a legit complaint that it is stalling as it not particularly effective outside of cheesing your opponent into bad choices.
The opponent being at sub 30% is a lot worse for puff than for Marth or any spacie vs spacies or falcon.
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On July 26 2015 05:47 AlterKot wrote:
Well you could technically change the time limit to 6 or less minutes, but that would be bad. In any case I'm very much against banning something because it makes for worse viewing experience, tournaments should for players first and viewers 100th.
My point isn't just for the viewers even if it started there. You're having people play top 16 sets at evo off stream because of time. You're having players waiting in excess of 45 minutes per set in top 8 just to player rounds. Venues often kick people out after time, how do you plan for that when match lengths are too long?
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EPT
