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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On March 25 2015 02:44 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 02:38 Ketara wrote:
There's a lot of good stuff you can do with mathcrafting. IMO you have to keep in mind what you're trying to do though.
The way I use math when I'm suggesting something is like, I don't base my suggestion on the math, I use the math to confirm what I'm suggesting.
Which means you're going in with a certain bias to try and prove your point. You and I have had this discussion before - even if something is technically and mathematically "optimal", there are so many other, unquantifiable variables that require you to use "feel" (as mentioned before) to actually be individually successful. Having the numbers doesn't really do all that much for you. I didn't read the rest of your post because I really don't care and if I wanted to, I could just go read the Lux thread in depth. Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 02:38 Ketara wrote:
I feel like I tend to get a bad rap on the forum about overvaluing math as a reasoning for doing this or that in the game, when the reality is I play hundreds and hundreds of Lux games, try all these things out, decide what feels right, and then just spend an hour doing quick math to try to confirm whether or not common sense was doing its job. A big part of it is that you shove math down everyone's throat in so many situations, even in situations where you haven't played hundreds of games to test and practice with champions. It's not like you just get randomly persecuted for no reason.
In LoL for example your play is too inconsistent to rely on feel when it comes to for example to mastery builds and rune builds and to a lesser extent item builds. Usually gotta do some maths.
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United States23745 Posts
I just wanna go home and play Bloodborne and then hate myself.
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I still haven't gone to pick up my copy, I'll probably just do it tomorrow after work....
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Can't you skip the latter step and go get a girl to remind yourself that self-deprecation doesn't lead anywhere instead?
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On March 25 2015 02:49 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 02:44 jcarlsoniv wrote:On March 25 2015 02:38 Ketara wrote:
There's a lot of good stuff you can do with mathcrafting. IMO you have to keep in mind what you're trying to do though.
The way I use math when I'm suggesting something is like, I don't base my suggestion on the math, I use the math to confirm what I'm suggesting.
Which means you're going in with a certain bias to try and prove your point. You and I have had this discussion before - even if something is technically and mathematically "optimal", there are so many other, unquantifiable variables that require you to use "feel" (as mentioned before) to actually be individually successful. Having the numbers doesn't really do all that much for you. I didn't read the rest of your post because I really don't care and if I wanted to, I could just go read the Lux thread in depth. On March 25 2015 02:38 Ketara wrote:
I feel like I tend to get a bad rap on the forum about overvaluing math as a reasoning for doing this or that in the game, when the reality is I play hundreds and hundreds of Lux games, try all these things out, decide what feels right, and then just spend an hour doing quick math to try to confirm whether or not common sense was doing its job. A big part of it is that you shove math down everyone's throat in so many situations, even in situations where you haven't played hundreds of games to test and practice with champions. It's not like you just get randomly persecuted for no reason. In LoL for example your play is too inconsistent to rely on feel when it comes to for example to mastery builds and rune builds and to a lesser extent item builds. Usually gotta do some maths.
I'm not saying all math is bad (I have a freaking degree in math lol). Of course doing some is very useful - in the Viktor thread, Ketara did some mathcraft and I took some of his advice because, quite honestly, I'm too lazy and don't care enough to do the math myself. But it is not the end all be all that he pushes it as.
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United States23745 Posts
On March 25 2015 02:52 Alaric wrote:
Can't you skip the latter step and go get a girl to remind yourself that self-deprecation doesn't lead anywhere instead?
I MEANT BECAUSE IT'S A HARD GAME LOL
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Bloodborne looks gorgeous.
Very peanut butter and jealous right now.
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On March 25 2015 02:52 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 02:49 Scip wrote:On March 25 2015 02:44 jcarlsoniv wrote:On March 25 2015 02:38 Ketara wrote:
There's a lot of good stuff you can do with mathcrafting. IMO you have to keep in mind what you're trying to do though.
The way I use math when I'm suggesting something is like, I don't base my suggestion on the math, I use the math to confirm what I'm suggesting.
Which means you're going in with a certain bias to try and prove your point. You and I have had this discussion before - even if something is technically and mathematically "optimal", there are so many other, unquantifiable variables that require you to use "feel" (as mentioned before) to actually be individually successful. Having the numbers doesn't really do all that much for you. I didn't read the rest of your post because I really don't care and if I wanted to, I could just go read the Lux thread in depth. On March 25 2015 02:38 Ketara wrote:
I feel like I tend to get a bad rap on the forum about overvaluing math as a reasoning for doing this or that in the game, when the reality is I play hundreds and hundreds of Lux games, try all these things out, decide what feels right, and then just spend an hour doing quick math to try to confirm whether or not common sense was doing its job. A big part of it is that you shove math down everyone's throat in so many situations, even in situations where you haven't played hundreds of games to test and practice with champions. It's not like you just get randomly persecuted for no reason. In LoL for example your play is too inconsistent to rely on feel when it comes to for example to mastery builds and rune builds and to a lesser extent item builds. Usually gotta do some maths. I'm not saying all math is bad (I have a freaking degree in math lol). Of course doing some is very useful - in the Viktor thread, Ketara did some mathcraft and I took some of his advice because, quite honestly, I'm too lazy and don't care enough to do the math myself. But it is not the end all be all that he pushes it as.
where is sufficiency or guomingdong the economist when you need them
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On March 25 2015 02:52 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 02:49 Scip wrote:On March 25 2015 02:44 jcarlsoniv wrote:On March 25 2015 02:38 Ketara wrote:
There's a lot of good stuff you can do with mathcrafting. IMO you have to keep in mind what you're trying to do though.
The way I use math when I'm suggesting something is like, I don't base my suggestion on the math, I use the math to confirm what I'm suggesting.
Which means you're going in with a certain bias to try and prove your point. You and I have had this discussion before - even if something is technically and mathematically "optimal", there are so many other, unquantifiable variables that require you to use "feel" (as mentioned before) to actually be individually successful. Having the numbers doesn't really do all that much for you. I didn't read the rest of your post because I really don't care and if I wanted to, I could just go read the Lux thread in depth. On March 25 2015 02:38 Ketara wrote:
I feel like I tend to get a bad rap on the forum about overvaluing math as a reasoning for doing this or that in the game, when the reality is I play hundreds and hundreds of Lux games, try all these things out, decide what feels right, and then just spend an hour doing quick math to try to confirm whether or not common sense was doing its job. A big part of it is that you shove math down everyone's throat in so many situations, even in situations where you haven't played hundreds of games to test and practice with champions. It's not like you just get randomly persecuted for no reason. In LoL for example your play is too inconsistent to rely on feel when it comes to for example to mastery builds and rune builds and to a lesser extent item builds. Usually gotta do some maths. I'm not saying all math is bad (I have a freaking degree in math lol). Of course doing some is very useful - in the Viktor thread, Ketara did some mathcraft and I took some of his advice because, quite honestly, I'm too lazy and don't care enough to do the math myself. But it is not the end all be all that he pushes it as.
But see that's just it, I never do push math as the "be all end all", you're making that assumption all on your own.
I'm just one of the only people on the strategy forum who actually tries to back up the things that they say. I do tend to get annoyed when I'm trying to seriously analyze something and the responses I get are just "I DONT THINK THIS IS RIGHT" with nothing to back that up, but that's about it. It is legitimately aggravating when you put work into a post and the people who respond to that post do not put in an equal amount of work.
Also I cannot believe I got warned for that post. Like, we're still having League discussion, shouldn't everybody be getting warned at this point.
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On March 25 2015 02:52 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 02:49 Scip wrote:On March 25 2015 02:44 jcarlsoniv wrote:On March 25 2015 02:38 Ketara wrote:
There's a lot of good stuff you can do with mathcrafting. IMO you have to keep in mind what you're trying to do though.
The way I use math when I'm suggesting something is like, I don't base my suggestion on the math, I use the math to confirm what I'm suggesting.
Which means you're going in with a certain bias to try and prove your point. You and I have had this discussion before - even if something is technically and mathematically "optimal", there are so many other, unquantifiable variables that require you to use "feel" (as mentioned before) to actually be individually successful. Having the numbers doesn't really do all that much for you. I didn't read the rest of your post because I really don't care and if I wanted to, I could just go read the Lux thread in depth. On March 25 2015 02:38 Ketara wrote:
I feel like I tend to get a bad rap on the forum about overvaluing math as a reasoning for doing this or that in the game, when the reality is I play hundreds and hundreds of Lux games, try all these things out, decide what feels right, and then just spend an hour doing quick math to try to confirm whether or not common sense was doing its job. A big part of it is that you shove math down everyone's throat in so many situations, even in situations where you haven't played hundreds of games to test and practice with champions. It's not like you just get randomly persecuted for no reason. In LoL for example your play is too inconsistent to rely on feel when it comes to for example to mastery builds and rune builds and to a lesser extent item builds. Usually gotta do some maths. I'm not saying all math is bad (I have a freaking degree in math lol). Of course doing some is very useful - in the Viktor thread, Ketara did some mathcraft and I took some of his advice because, quite honestly, I'm too lazy and don't care enough to do the math myself. But it is not the end all be all that he pushes it as.
I mean some philosophers state that Math doesn't tell us anything as all Math is is a bunch of tautologies, which can be considered to be useless knowledge.
I think me myself though we can get a lot more mileage out of experience than we can with logical statements. I'm still not sure however as this is something that I need to think about some more.
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11589 Posts
What exactly is Turkey asking of the U.S. here? To not make a distinction between Muslim extremists and other extremists?
Ugh.
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On March 25 2015 02:53 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 02:52 Alaric wrote:
Can't you skip the latter step and go get a girl to remind yourself that self-deprecation doesn't lead anywhere instead? I MEANT BECAUSE IT'S A HARD GAME LOL
Pfeh, like it matters. You can launch the game telling yourself "I've been pulling hair trying to make some progress lately, so I'll just goof around and look at the scenery and shrug it off if I die once or twice" then stumble upon the next story-related area all the same, right?
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On March 25 2015 02:58 yamato77 wrote:What exactly is Turkey asking of the U.S. here? To not make a distinction between Muslim extremists and other extremists? Ugh.
At the moment, he's elucidating Turkey's current security concerns and issues they're facing with the ongoing wars in Syria and Iraq (as well as what they've been doing in response). Right now, the millions of refugees they're hosting.
currently likening Turkey's borders them like the border with Mexico. Ehhhhhh.
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Baa?21247 Posts
On March 25 2015 02:45 Frudgey wrote:MoonBear if you don't mind me asking, what is your education/what are your degrees? You frequently have such intelligent posts that I can't help but wonder sometimes. Your knowledge truly floors me some days. I still remember when you whipped out a poem about Topology! Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 02:44 jcarlsoniv wrote:On March 25 2015 02:38 Ketara wrote:
There's a lot of good stuff you can do with mathcrafting. IMO you have to keep in mind what you're trying to do though.
The way I use math when I'm suggesting something is like, I don't base my suggestion on the math, I use the math to confirm what I'm suggesting.
Which means you're going in with a certain bias to try and prove your point. You and I have had this discussion before - even if something is technically and mathematically "optimal", there are so many other, unquantifiable variables that require you to use "feel" (as mentioned before) to actually be individually successful. Having the numbers doesn't really do all that much for you. I didn't read the rest of your post because I really don't care and if I wanted to, I could just go read the Lux thread in depth. While I do believe that you can prove things mathematically, I think it's only possible if you include ALL of the variables. With theory crafting that I see in General Discussion or in the strategy forums I don't think that this is simply possible. There are too many unaccounted variables that aren't immediately visible to the people. Of course this can transition into the whole analytic versus synthetic knowledge debate, but something tells me that bringing it up here isn't going to do a whole lot as I don't think anyone is actually going to read my post and care about it. Still however, one could argue if we can actually prove anything with logical statements or if they're just meaningless declarations which don't really tell us anything. Of course, one could also make the point that all knowledge is based off experience and there is no such thing as analytic knowledge. It's such a deep concept really.
I think this is actually closer to the a priori/a posteriori distinction rather than analytic/synthetic.
On March 25 2015 02:57 Frudgey wrote:
I mean some philosophers state that Math doesn't tell us anything as all Math is is a bunch of tautologies, which can be considered to be useless knowledge.
I think me myself though we can get a lot more mileage out of experience than we can with logical statements. I'm still not sure however as this is something that I need to think about some more.
Well, again, this goes back to Kant - even though we experience truth a posteriori since that is all we can do by definition, the source of truth can be analytic or synthetic. Therefore, it shouldn't be a distinction between logic and experience.
If you consider math useless due to its tautological nature, you can easily extrapolate that to all "truths," since they are by necessity tautological when stated as such, by virtue of being "real."
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I wish I knew what this theorycraft "debate" is about. It seems everyone agrees with everyone else except that some people dislike Ketara?
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On March 25 2015 02:48 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 02:45 Frudgey wrote:
MoonBear if you don't mind me asking, what is your education/what are your degrees? You frequently have such intelligent posts that I can't help but wonder sometimes.
Your knowledge truly floors me some days. I still remember when you whipped out a poem about Topology! He's british. He automatically get +10 to his fancy stat
You already know
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There wasn't really a debate, just me writing a huge rant that basically said "Math =/= Theorycraft" followed by a lot of agreement and then finally some of the long-tired "Is theorycrafting useful for games like LoL?" stuff seeped into the discussion.
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ha, now hes talking about cyprus, and now armenia
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On March 25 2015 02:42 Lord Tolkien wrote:
@ BoonMear: Academia is oftentimes so vicious, because the stakes are so low.
Hm, I'm inclined to think that it can get really vicious because in today's age it's possible to write blog posts to critique and criticise other people's work rather than needing to spend time on a full-blown paper. The economics blog wars can get really nasty sheesh.
On March 25 2015 02:45 Frudgey wrote:
MoonBear if you don't mind me asking, what is your education/what are your degrees?
I'm currently in postgraduate while working. My background is mathematics/finance/economics.
On March 25 2015 02:45 Numy wrote:
It's funny you mention this now. My friend in his final year of Chem Eng was assigned a certain subject for his thesis which was a continuation of a Masters project from a year before. When he started doing it he eventually realized that the whole basis of the thesis was wrong but no one actually figured that out since the "math" around it made sense at a glance. He did this by just looking at the very basic definition the scenario and looking into the science behind that to find out the whole problem was incorrect. People just get too caught up in what they think should happen.
Yeah, mathematics is sometimes used as a replacement for common sense. Sometimes I wonder if it's because people get too tunnel-visioned because of the required mathematical rigour or if they don't quite fully understand the mathematical tools they use so they substitute in some faith instead.
It's totally ok for your research to show an illogical conclusion, but it's also important to make sure you're comfortable everything is working properly!
On March 25 2015 02:57 Frudgey wrote:
I mean some philosophers state that Math doesn't tell us anything as all Math is is a bunch of tautologies, which can be considered to be useless knowledge.
Sort of. More accurately, the problem is that it is technically impossible to prove anything if we don't have a system to prove it in. But because that system has assumption in it, it means our proof relies on those assumptions become correct. And if we can't prove those assumptions, we ultimately just have to have faith that it just actually works.
For example, you might remember back to highschool where you had to solve problems like "What's is the angle in this corner of a triangle if I give you two other angles?" and you'd use the the rule that all triangles have 180° degrees and figure out the answer. That's a case where you solve a problem ("What is the angle?") within a system ("Triangles have 180°"). But the thing is, we can't technically prove that all regular triangles have 180°. It's something we just have to accept is a fact of life! And if we change our system we work in then these assumptions don't apply any more and we have to start all over again. For example going from regular geometry to hyperbolic geometry we find suddenly triangles can have less than 180°. Oh dear.
This seems very deeply unsatisfying. Doesn't that mean that basically all our human knowledge is based on some assumptions and if we proved those assumptions wrong then the entirety of human knowledge collapses? Yes. It does.
Now we could detour into philosophy (or more specifically epistemology) about how we try to reconcile this fact, such as the use of empiricism and falsification. However this is probably going a bit too deep for my post but you might find it interesting reading.
Disclaimer: I've taken a lot of liberties writing this post so it isn't crazy boring. Don't actually use what I wrote in a philosophy exam. (That's also plagarism lol)
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EPT
