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On July 13 2020 05:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 04:58 sneakyfox wrote:On July 13 2020 04:56 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 13 2020 04:55 Z3nith wrote:On July 13 2020 04:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 13 2020 04:53 stilt wrote:
We're speaking about Clem's rise but Reynor has improved a lot lately, he seems better than Serral in every match up. agree I'd even say he's the favorite entering the season finals It'll be interesting to see how he fares against Maru and PartinG, two players who are very much capable of outmicroing him. Maru is the other favorite but we've seen much less of him lately But imo those two are the hottest sc2 players right now You don't think a single player from the GSL top 4 is hot right now, let alone the champion himself? I dunno. I think PartinG's run was kinda miraculous and I actually don't see him perform very well now in the season finals now that the impact of his 4 gate blink has faded. Cure looked so-so after a difficult to swallow loss, sometimes still extremely good, sometimes quite off. TY... well has not played seriously since he won the GSL, I mean he lost vs Bly and Armani. As for INno, yeah his mech is dangerous, but I don't know, he didn't look really incredible to me either. Honestly I really think Reynor and Maru enter this as favorites. Then again, maybe TY or INno comes up extremely sharp and prepared and crushes everybody, but I haven't got anything to support that theory.
I don't really see why Maru should be the strongest Korean now? I wouldn't be very surprised if that turned out to be the case, but there isn't much to base it on right now. On the other hand, I wouldn't put too much into what TY does in online tournaments, I think his dominating Code S championship speaks volumes.
But in general I think people tend to overestimate what Reynor is doing. I mean he looks very strong of course but it's not against the very best yet. Clem is not TY/Maru/Inno. (except for Serral, who clearly isn't at the top of his game right now)
In any case, we'll see next week.
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On July 13 2020 05:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 05:07 Elentos wrote:On July 13 2020 05:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 13 2020 04:58 sneakyfox wrote:On July 13 2020 04:56 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 13 2020 04:55 Z3nith wrote:On July 13 2020 04:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 13 2020 04:53 stilt wrote:
We're speaking about Clem's rise but Reynor has improved a lot lately, he seems better than Serral in every match up. agree I'd even say he's the favorite entering the season finals It'll be interesting to see how he fares against Maru and PartinG, two players who are very much capable of outmicroing him. Maru is the other favorite but we've seen much less of him lately But imo those two are the hottest sc2 players right now You don't think a single player from the GSL top 4 is hot right now, let alone the champion himself? I dunno. I think PartinG's run was kinda miraculous and I actually don't see him perform very well now in the season finals now that the impact of his 4 gate blink has faded. Cure looked so-so after a difficult to swallow loss, sometimes still extremely good, sometimes quite off. TY... well has not played seriously since he won the GSL, I mean he lost vs Bly and Armani. As for INno, yeah his mech is dangerous, but I don't know, he didn't look really incredible to me either. Honestly I really think Reynor and Maru enter this as favorites. Then again, maybe TY or INno comes up extremely sharp and prepared and crushes everybody, but I haven't got anything to support that theory. Last I heard PartinG is very confident against Terran. I think as per usual for Protoss, the Zerg players as well as the other Protoss players will be more worrying for him. Also you have the least to go off for Maru but you rate him the highest  don't agree. He beats Dark while TY loses to Solar, Armani and freakin Bly (I know that last series means zilch, but still)
You're making it sound like Code S happened a year ago. Come on. TY smashed Dark 3-0.
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On July 13 2020 05:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 05:07 Elentos wrote:On July 13 2020 05:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 13 2020 04:58 sneakyfox wrote:On July 13 2020 04:56 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 13 2020 04:55 Z3nith wrote:On July 13 2020 04:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 13 2020 04:53 stilt wrote:
We're speaking about Clem's rise but Reynor has improved a lot lately, he seems better than Serral in every match up. agree I'd even say he's the favorite entering the season finals It'll be interesting to see how he fares against Maru and PartinG, two players who are very much capable of outmicroing him. Maru is the other favorite but we've seen much less of him lately But imo those two are the hottest sc2 players right now You don't think a single player from the GSL top 4 is hot right now, let alone the champion himself? I dunno. I think PartinG's run was kinda miraculous and I actually don't see him perform very well now in the season finals now that the impact of his 4 gate blink has faded. Cure looked so-so after a difficult to swallow loss, sometimes still extremely good, sometimes quite off. TY... well has not played seriously since he won the GSL, I mean he lost vs Bly and Armani. As for INno, yeah his mech is dangerous, but I don't know, he didn't look really incredible to me either. Honestly I really think Reynor and Maru enter this as favorites. Then again, maybe TY or INno comes up extremely sharp and prepared and crushes everybody, but I haven't got anything to support that theory. Last I heard PartinG is very confident against Terran. I think as per usual for Protoss, the Zerg players as well as the other Protoss players will be more worrying for him. Also you have the least to go off for Maru but you rate him the highest don't agree. He beats Dark while TY loses to Solar, Armani and freakin Bly (I know that last series means zilch, but still)
Inno only stomped Dark like half a dozen times in the last 2 months.
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yeah you all make very valid points. Never said this was world class analysis backed up by perfect data, this is my feeling as a noob viewer  . And it's not like we're not going to be fixed very soon about all of this !
by the way groups will very much affect the appreciation of the finals
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Alright, that was zerg land, see you guys in toss land in a bit
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And now from Reynor, Serral and Clem to NA finisher... a bit depressing tbh but I still have hope we get to see some (if not amazing) at least fun/interesting games!
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On July 13 2020 05:12 Penev wrote:
Alright, that was zerg land, see you guys in toss land in a bit
hey at least pretend to believe in Future
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On July 13 2020 05:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 05:12 Penev wrote:
Alright, that was zerg land, see you guys in toss land in a bit hey at least pretend to believe in Future
I believed in Future hype train but after yesterday... not so much. 
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On July 13 2020 05:13 whiterabbit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 05:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 13 2020 05:12 Penev wrote:
Alright, that was zerg land, see you guys in toss land in a bit hey at least pretend to believe in Future I believed in Future hype train but after yesterday... not so much.
not going to blame you sadly
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On July 13 2020 05:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 05:12 Penev wrote:
Alright, that was zerg land, see you guys in toss land in a bit hey at least pretend to believe in Future
hehe, you sound like a motivational speaker
the world is clearly ending Wire, open your eyes 
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On July 13 2020 05:14 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 05:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 13 2020 05:12 Penev wrote:
Alright, that was zerg land, see you guys in toss land in a bit hey at least pretend to believe in Future hehe, you sound like a motivational speaker the world is clearly ending Wire, open your eyes
haha yeah take out the capital f and it sounds really comical
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Reynor was rumbling with Koreans in the code S when he was like 15.
He was a Blizzcon finalist at the age of what? 17 or 18
He’s beaten the best Koreans and serral in offline premier tournaments several times.
He’s a monster. It’s why I lol when people say Clem, who don’t get me wrong is a great player, is on his level Reynor is a savant considering his age and he seems to just be getting better.
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On July 13 2020 05:16 BerserkSword wrote:
Reynor was rumbling with Koreans in the code S when he was like 15.
He was a Blizzcon finalist at the age of what? 17 or 18
He’s beaten the best Koreans and serral in offline premier tournaments several times.
He’s a monster. It’s why I lol when people say Clem, who don’t get me wrong is a great player, is on his level Reynor is a savant considering his age and he seems to just be getting better.
I'll keep my opinion that Clem, wich mirrors Reynor in terms of time, had a slower up coming because he choose a race were being a foreigner is simply harder and even koreans for whatever reason.
Special was a top foreigner at age 15 when tanks had no smart casting and bio was only viable vs zerg and it took him years to finally be a top contender. Even Maru, who was playing GSL at age 12, took years and a switch of teams to finally win his first OSL.
Zerg is race that takes advantage of natural talent, Terran takes way more time to master, at least from what I've seen.
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Alright, NA is on! See you guys in the other thread xD
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On July 13 2020 05:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 04:58 sneakyfox wrote:On July 13 2020 04:56 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 13 2020 04:55 Z3nith wrote:On July 13 2020 04:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 13 2020 04:53 stilt wrote:
We're speaking about Clem's rise but Reynor has improved a lot lately, he seems better than Serral in every match up. agree I'd even say he's the favorite entering the season finals It'll be interesting to see how he fares against Maru and PartinG, two players who are very much capable of outmicroing him. Maru is the other favorite but we've seen much less of him lately But imo those two are the hottest sc2 players right now You don't think a single player from the GSL top 4 is hot right now, let alone the champion himself? I dunno. I think PartinG's run was kinda miraculous and I actually don't see him perform very well now in the season finals now that the impact of his 4 gate blink has faded. Cure looked so-so after a difficult to swallow loss, sometimes still extremely good, sometimes quite off. TY... well has not played seriously since he won the GSL, I mean he lost vs Bly and Armani. As for INno, yeah his mech is dangerous, but I don't know, he didn't look really incredible to me either. Honestly I really think Reynor and Maru enter this as favorites. Then again, maybe TY or INno comes up extremely sharp and prepared and crushes everybody, but I haven't got anything to support that theory.
That 4 gate build is still very viable especially in parting's hands
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I'm on the Reynor > Serral hype train. I just think Serral > Koreans whereas Reynor I really don't think so. So whatever happens will be interesting to say the least!
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Northern Ireland26198 Posts
On July 13 2020 05:16 BerserkSword wrote:
Reynor was rumbling with Koreans in the code S when he was like 15.
He was a Blizzcon finalist at the age of what? 17 or 18
He’s beaten the best Koreans and serral in offline premier tournaments several times.
He’s a monster. It’s why I lol when people say Clem, who don’t get me wrong is a great player, is on his level Reynor is a savant considering his age and he seems to just be getting better.
Reynor just seems to be delivering more consistently now. I think most seasoned Starcraft watchers all see his potential ceiling level, just he doesn’t always hit those crazy levels. Recently he seems to be doing so, consistently, which was really what separated him from Serral.
Clem is also a great player. Incredible mechanically, I still favour Special if strategic prep is possible but Clem looks fundamentally stronger than all foreign Ts, and most Korean Ts bar the very best.
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United States6565 Posts
On July 13 2020 09:41 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 05:16 BerserkSword wrote:
Reynor was rumbling with Koreans in the code S when he was like 15.
He was a Blizzcon finalist at the age of what? 17 or 18
He’s beaten the best Koreans and serral in offline premier tournaments several times.
He’s a monster. It’s why I lol when people say Clem, who don’t get me wrong is a great player, is on his level Reynor is a savant considering his age and he seems to just be getting better. Reynor just seems to be delivering more consistently now. I think most seasoned Starcraft watchers all see his potential ceiling level, just he doesn’t always hit those crazy levels. Recently he seems to be doing so, consistently, which was really what separated him from Serral. Clem is also a great player. Incredible mechanically, I still favour Special if strategic prep is possible but Clem looks fundamentally stronger than all foreign Ts, and most Korean Ts bar the very best.
i think reynor has always been very close to serral in terms of talent. reynor, though he has always been competitively very mature for his age, has been accelerating his progress in the past year. i think the two will go back and forth as king of europe for as long as they stay competitive. this is probably very NA of me but i kind of see clem and uthermal similarly. they have very high skill ceilings but don't always show it in their matches. both are still always top 10 eu but can definitely be top 1-3 eu at peak performance.
i think this all begs the question.. what brings out peak performance? i think if there were an answer pros would already have it for us. even though i watched years and years of sc2 i was still only like 55-60% on liquibet. players are humans. and humans are flawed.
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Northern Ireland26198 Posts
On July 14 2020 00:34 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 09:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 13 2020 05:16 BerserkSword wrote:
Reynor was rumbling with Koreans in the code S when he was like 15.
He was a Blizzcon finalist at the age of what? 17 or 18
He’s beaten the best Koreans and serral in offline premier tournaments several times.
He’s a monster. It’s why I lol when people say Clem, who don’t get me wrong is a great player, is on his level Reynor is a savant considering his age and he seems to just be getting better. Reynor just seems to be delivering more consistently now. I think most seasoned Starcraft watchers all see his potential ceiling level, just he doesn’t always hit those crazy levels. Recently he seems to be doing so, consistently, which was really what separated him from Serral. Clem is also a great player. Incredible mechanically, I still favour Special if strategic prep is possible but Clem looks fundamentally stronger than all foreign Ts, and most Korean Ts bar the very best. i think reynor has always been very close to serral in terms of talent. reynor, though he has always been competitively very mature for his age, has been accelerating his progress in the past year. i think the two will go back and forth as king of europe for as long as they stay competitive. this is probably very NA of me but i kind of see clem and uthermal similarly. they have very high skill ceilings but don't always show it in their matches. both are still always top 10 eu but can definitely be top 1-3 eu at peak performance. i think this all begs the question.. what brings out peak performance? i think if there were an answer pros would already have it for us. even though i watched years and years of sc2 i was still only like 55-60% on liquibet. players are humans. and humans are flawed.
That is indeed a question for the ages, be it in traditional sports or now eSports the training ground/practice house/ladder monsters who never are able to deliver would be something a sports psychologist would earn vast riches for solving:
As for the EU scene and the two aforementioned Zergs, plus increasingly now Clem, I think their styles and strengths as players are a big piece of their success. As to how they obtained them while others don’t, who knows but namely they’re all really, really damn strong mechanically. They can execute all the builds their competitors employ, but they also can employ styles and moves that only they can really execute to the required level.
There’s a really strong, solid, fundamentally tactically and mechanically sound tier of players but they hit that wall.
Clem can only pull off some of his pushes because of Clem splits for a really crude example, or at least he consistently gains value.
As a Starcraft player ideally you want to play with the highest ceiling possible, provided you can execute it. Then comes delivering that in tournaments. It’ll open strategic options that might otherwise not be open, plus another huge advantage is your opponents won’t get as much good practice against seriously mechanical/multitask heavy play as you will in practicing it.
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United States6565 Posts
On July 14 2020 01:11 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2020 00:34 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 13 2020 09:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 13 2020 05:16 BerserkSword wrote:
Reynor was rumbling with Koreans in the code S when he was like 15.
He was a Blizzcon finalist at the age of what? 17 or 18
He’s beaten the best Koreans and serral in offline premier tournaments several times.
He’s a monster. It’s why I lol when people say Clem, who don’t get me wrong is a great player, is on his level Reynor is a savant considering his age and he seems to just be getting better. Reynor just seems to be delivering more consistently now. I think most seasoned Starcraft watchers all see his potential ceiling level, just he doesn’t always hit those crazy levels. Recently he seems to be doing so, consistently, which was really what separated him from Serral. Clem is also a great player. Incredible mechanically, I still favour Special if strategic prep is possible but Clem looks fundamentally stronger than all foreign Ts, and most Korean Ts bar the very best. i think reynor has always been very close to serral in terms of talent. reynor, though he has always been competitively very mature for his age, has been accelerating his progress in the past year. i think the two will go back and forth as king of europe for as long as they stay competitive. this is probably very NA of me but i kind of see clem and uthermal similarly. they have very high skill ceilings but don't always show it in their matches. both are still always top 10 eu but can definitely be top 1-3 eu at peak performance. i think this all begs the question.. what brings out peak performance? i think if there were an answer pros would already have it for us. even though i watched years and years of sc2 i was still only like 55-60% on liquibet. players are humans. and humans are flawed. That is indeed a question for the ages, be it in traditional sports or now eSports the training ground/practice house/ladder monsters who never are able to deliver would be something a sports psychologist would earn vast riches for solving: As for the EU scene and the two aforementioned Zergs, plus increasingly now Clem, I think their styles and strengths as players are a big piece of their success. As to how they obtained them while others don’t, who knows but namely they’re all really, really damn strong mechanically. They can execute all the builds their competitors employ, but they also can employ styles and moves that only they can really execute to the required level. There’s a really strong, solid, fundamentally tactically and mechanically sound tier of players but they hit that wall. Clem can only pull off some of his pushes because of Clem splits for a really crude example, or at least he consistently gains value. As a Starcraft player ideally you want to play with the highest ceiling possible, provided you can execute it. Then comes delivering that in tournaments. It’ll open strategic options that might otherwise not be open, plus another huge advantage is your opponents won’t get as much good practice against seriously mechanical/multitask heavy play as you will in practicing it.
yes it is indeed a question for the ages. i like that you brought up traditional sports. why are baseball gods, who hit 95-100 mph fast balls thrown from 60 feet away for a living (euro: 153-161 kmph from 18 meters away) with reaction times around .2 seconds able to sustain .300+ batting averages for 15+ years? even though every pitcher has studied them they still can't get them out reliabily. and yet sometimes these gods of baseball slump and hit .100 for 100's of atbats. i don't think we will ever know what fosters peak performance because every athlete is different. and perhaps 'peak performance' or 'skill ceiling' doesn't even exist. that's why handicapping starcraft games... and baseball games.. is so damn. hard. you can study every statistic derived from a player's performance but you never know who is going to show up that day. like i said, humans are flawed.
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EPT
