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On May 04 2015 22:24 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:23 ZAiNs wrote:On May 04 2015 22:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 22:11 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 21:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 21:46 ejozl wrote:
Isn't Zest the full package Protoss? Nope, otherwise he would know how to play PvT He does, better than most He has the worst PvT : PvX ratio of all top P players And yet he knows the matchup better than most others. The only protoss who consistently beats top terrans convincingly is parting. Zest isn't worse than anybody except him in PvT How can you forget herO? ~_~ Because he loses to top terrans just as much as Zest does.
Mostly agree, but Zest hasn't (and neither has Stats) figured out Maru, whereas herO goes even with Maru.
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On May 04 2015 22:24 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:23 ZAiNs wrote:On May 04 2015 22:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 22:11 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 21:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 21:46 ejozl wrote:
Isn't Zest the full package Protoss? Nope, otherwise he would know how to play PvT He does, better than most He has the worst PvT : PvX ratio of all top P players And yet he knows the matchup better than most others. The only protoss who consistently beats top terrans convincingly is parting. Zest isn't worse than anybody except him in PvT How can you forget herO? ~_~ Because he loses to top terrans just as much as Zest does.
Yet his understanding of the match-up is plainly superior
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On May 04 2015 22:25 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:17 OtherWorld wrote:On May 04 2015 22:11 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 21:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 21:46 ejozl wrote:
Isn't Zest the full package Protoss? Nope, otherwise he would know how to play PvT He does, better than most He has the worst PvT : PvX ratio of all top P players Which can be attributed to other top P players having not as good PvX My sentence wasn't clear so I try to reformulate. It goes like: you can have a worse understanding of a match-up yet have better performances than an overall weaker player with a stronger understanding of said match-up.
Ah ok. I guess you originally meant that Zest has bad understanding of the MU but decent results then?
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Did you know that herO has a nearly 71% PvZ all-time winrate? Ridiculous.
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Austria24417 Posts
On May 04 2015 22:26 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:24 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 22:23 ZAiNs wrote:On May 04 2015 22:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 22:11 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 21:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 21:46 ejozl wrote:
Isn't Zest the full package Protoss? Nope, otherwise he would know how to play PvT He does, better than most He has the worst PvT : PvX ratio of all top P players And yet he knows the matchup better than most others. The only protoss who consistently beats top terrans convincingly is parting. Zest isn't worse than anybody except him in PvT How can you forget herO? ~_~ Because he loses to top terrans just as much as Zest does. Yet his understanding of the match-up is plainly superior
Slightly, if at all. A lot of stuff protoss players are doing in PvT right now was pioneered by Zest.
Anyway, my original point still stands: Zest is far far better vs terran than people give him credit for.
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On May 04 2015 22:26 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:17 OtherWorld wrote:On May 04 2015 22:11 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 21:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 21:46 ejozl wrote:
Isn't Zest the full package Protoss? Nope, otherwise he would know how to play PvT He does, better than most He has the worst PvT : PvX ratio of all top P players Which can be attributed to other top P players having not as good PvX My sentence wasn't clear so I try to reformulate. It goes like: you can have a worse understanding of a match-up yet have better performances than an overall weaker player with a stronger understanding of said match-up. Yeah, and Zest's understanding of PvT is very good. His winrates don't show it.
Nope, it's not good at all. I care little about winrates, most of the time they darken the picture. Zest losing to TANGTANG was probably more telling, too bad we don't have the games to confirm
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Has got to be tough to play 2 series with 8 hours downtime inbetween.
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On May 04 2015 22:29 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:26 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 22:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:17 OtherWorld wrote:On May 04 2015 22:11 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 21:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 21:46 ejozl wrote:
Isn't Zest the full package Protoss? Nope, otherwise he would know how to play PvT He does, better than most He has the worst PvT : PvX ratio of all top P players Which can be attributed to other top P players having not as good PvX My sentence wasn't clear so I try to reformulate. It goes like: you can have a worse understanding of a match-up yet have better performances than an overall weaker player with a stronger understanding of said match-up. Yeah, and Zest's understanding of PvT is very good. His winrates don't show it. Nope, it's not good at all. I care little about winrates, most of the time they darken the picture. Zest losing to TANGTANG was probably more telling, too bad we don't have the games to confirm
I bet TANGTANG didn't play a single straight-up game.
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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China6329 Posts
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On May 04 2015 22:27 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:17 OtherWorld wrote:On May 04 2015 22:11 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 21:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 21:46 ejozl wrote:
Isn't Zest the full package Protoss? Nope, otherwise he would know how to play PvT He does, better than most He has the worst PvT : PvX ratio of all top P players Which can be attributed to other top P players having not as good PvX My sentence wasn't clear so I try to reformulate. It goes like: you can have a worse understanding of a match-up yet have better performances than an overall weaker player with a stronger understanding of said match-up. Ah ok. I guess you originally meant that Zest has bad understanding of the MU but decent results then?
More like, if you were to draw a line representing the average of his three match-ups, PvT would be below that line
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Austria24417 Posts
On May 04 2015 22:29 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:26 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 22:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:17 OtherWorld wrote:On May 04 2015 22:11 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 21:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 21:46 ejozl wrote:
Isn't Zest the full package Protoss? Nope, otherwise he would know how to play PvT He does, better than most He has the worst PvT : PvX ratio of all top P players Which can be attributed to other top P players having not as good PvX My sentence wasn't clear so I try to reformulate. It goes like: you can have a worse understanding of a match-up yet have better performances than an overall weaker player with a stronger understanding of said match-up. Yeah, and Zest's understanding of PvT is very good. His winrates don't show it. Nope, it's not good at all. I care little about winrates, most of the time they darken the picture. Zest losing to TANGTANG was probably more telling, too bad we don't have the games to confirm
I don't think a match we haven't seen is more telling than his wins against Innovation, Bbyong and others as well as close games against Maru and Fantasy, in which he looked good, if undecisive at times.
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On May 04 2015 22:29 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:26 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 22:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:17 OtherWorld wrote:On May 04 2015 22:11 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 21:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 21:46 ejozl wrote:
Isn't Zest the full package Protoss? Nope, otherwise he would know how to play PvT He does, better than most He has the worst PvT : PvX ratio of all top P players Which can be attributed to other top P players having not as good PvX My sentence wasn't clear so I try to reformulate. It goes like: you can have a worse understanding of a match-up yet have better performances than an overall weaker player with a stronger understanding of said match-up. Yeah, and Zest's understanding of PvT is very good. His winrates don't show it. Nope, it's not good at all. I care little about winrates, most of the time they darken the picture. Zest losing to TANGTANG was probably more telling, too bad we don't have the games to confirm
Losing to one very weak player is enough to confirm you as bad at a MU?
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On May 04 2015 22:31 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:27 OtherWorld wrote:On May 04 2015 22:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:17 OtherWorld wrote:On May 04 2015 22:11 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 21:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 21:46 ejozl wrote:
Isn't Zest the full package Protoss? Nope, otherwise he would know how to play PvT He does, better than most He has the worst PvT : PvX ratio of all top P players Which can be attributed to other top P players having not as good PvX My sentence wasn't clear so I try to reformulate. It goes like: you can have a worse understanding of a match-up yet have better performances than an overall weaker player with a stronger understanding of said match-up. Ah ok. I guess you originally meant that Zest has bad understanding of the MU but decent results then? More like, if you were to draw a line representing the average of his three match-ups, PvT would be below that line
Well yeah for sure, but there has to be something below the average line or else it's not average anymore, right?^^
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On May 04 2015 22:30 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:29 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:26 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 22:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:17 OtherWorld wrote:On May 04 2015 22:11 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 21:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 21:46 ejozl wrote:
Isn't Zest the full package Protoss? Nope, otherwise he would know how to play PvT He does, better than most He has the worst PvT : PvX ratio of all top P players Which can be attributed to other top P players having not as good PvX My sentence wasn't clear so I try to reformulate. It goes like: you can have a worse understanding of a match-up yet have better performances than an overall weaker player with a stronger understanding of said match-up. Yeah, and Zest's understanding of PvT is very good. His winrates don't show it. Nope, it's not good at all. I care little about winrates, most of the time they darken the picture. Zest losing to TANGTANG was probably more telling, too bad we don't have the games to confirm I bet TANGTANG didn't play a single straight-up game.
Above all I bet TANGTANG would not be able to do that vs PartinG or herO
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On May 04 2015 22:31 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:27 OtherWorld wrote:On May 04 2015 22:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:17 OtherWorld wrote:On May 04 2015 22:11 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 21:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 21:46 ejozl wrote:
Isn't Zest the full package Protoss? Nope, otherwise he would know how to play PvT He does, better than most He has the worst PvT : PvX ratio of all top P players Which can be attributed to other top P players having not as good PvX My sentence wasn't clear so I try to reformulate. It goes like: you can have a worse understanding of a match-up yet have better performances than an overall weaker player with a stronger understanding of said match-up. Ah ok. I guess you originally meant that Zest has bad understanding of the MU but decent results then? More like, if you were to draw a line representing the average of his three match-ups, PvT would be below that line
His 2 other MUs are very far above average and his PvT still isn't below average. So he's fine.
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On May 04 2015 22:33 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:30 Elentos wrote:On May 04 2015 22:29 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:26 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 22:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:17 OtherWorld wrote:On May 04 2015 22:11 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 21:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 21:46 ejozl wrote:
Isn't Zest the full package Protoss? Nope, otherwise he would know how to play PvT He does, better than most He has the worst PvT : PvX ratio of all top P players Which can be attributed to other top P players having not as good PvX My sentence wasn't clear so I try to reformulate. It goes like: you can have a worse understanding of a match-up yet have better performances than an overall weaker player with a stronger understanding of said match-up. Yeah, and Zest's understanding of PvT is very good. His winrates don't show it. Nope, it's not good at all. I care little about winrates, most of the time they darken the picture. Zest losing to TANGTANG was probably more telling, too bad we don't have the games to confirm I bet TANGTANG didn't play a single straight-up game. Above all I bet TANGTANG would not be able to do that vs PartinG or herO
What was Sjow vs Life then? The showing of Life's bad understanding of ZvT?
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On May 04 2015 22:33 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:31 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:27 OtherWorld wrote:On May 04 2015 22:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:17 OtherWorld wrote:On May 04 2015 22:11 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 22:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 04 2015 21:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2015 21:46 ejozl wrote:
Isn't Zest the full package Protoss? Nope, otherwise he would know how to play PvT He does, better than most He has the worst PvT : PvX ratio of all top P players Which can be attributed to other top P players having not as good PvX My sentence wasn't clear so I try to reformulate. It goes like: you can have a worse understanding of a match-up yet have better performances than an overall weaker player with a stronger understanding of said match-up. Ah ok. I guess you originally meant that Zest has bad understanding of the MU but decent results then? More like, if you were to draw a line representing the average of his three match-ups, PvT would be below that line Well yeah for sure, but there has to be something below the average line or else it's not average anymore, right?^^
Yeah, but in this case the contrast is sharp. Just like it would be for Dream, for instance. Compare his TvT with his TvZ and TvP
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