• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:32
CEST 01:32
KST 08:32
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard"2ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live!20Weekly Cups (July 13-19): Terran & Protoss rise; Zerg falters2Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16)89Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format17
StarCraft 2
General
How would you feel about frequent/monthly balance patches for SC2? Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard" Weekly Cups (July 13-19): Terran & Protoss rise; Zerg falters
Tourneys
IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly INu's Battles#18 - Cure, herO, Rogue & ByuN RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) WardiTV Summer Cup 2026
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Industrial Park New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate
External Content
Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation Mutation # 533 Die Together
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion How Famous was FlaSh before his Debut? Animated Gateway BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ HORROR STARCRAFT MOVIE
Tourneys
Escore Tournament - Season 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend! Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers PvT advise for noobs Fighting Spirit mining rates Creating a full chart of Zerg builds
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Diablo IV
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Artificial Intelligence Thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread How to buy a book - shipping from Korea to Europe The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How Games can Help with Majo…
TrAiDoS
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3608 users

[Code S] Ro8 Day 2 Season 1 2015 - Page 79

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
Post a Reply
Prev 1 77 78 79 80 81 Next
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
March 06 2015 17:08 GMT
#1561
On March 07 2015 02:04 sharkie wrote:
The amount of WCS points Life, Maru and herO already have is pretty sick.

And IEM Katowice will probably give them even more^^
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
Yorkie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States12612 Posts
March 06 2015 17:09 GMT
#1562
On March 07 2015 02:07 sharkie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2015 02:06 Darkhorse wrote:
Impressed that Life managed that quick turnaround after falling out of NSSL. I haven't seen him vs Inno yet but I presume it's the second super high level TvZ involving Life I get to watch in two days. Even if he doesn't advance any further, 2x Ro4 in Season 1 is a good starting point (and best result of anyone over both leagues).

herO will be a tough opponent for sure


Innovation vs Life was nowhere near super high level unfortunately. It was very very scrappy :/

I actually like scrappy games tbh. I went back and read the LR toward the end of the series and the excitement they bring out of people is cool
Hwang Kang Hooooooooooo. Follow mah boy Shellshock @Shellshock1122
Yorkie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States12612 Posts
March 06 2015 17:11 GMT
#1563
Life actually "beat" Dream in the bo5 last night. There's no guarantee Inno wouldn't have won games 6 and 7 were it in fact a bo7. Honestly I still think Inno is slightly better than Dream, especially at an IEM-type event. Dream is insanely good though
Hwang Kang Hooooooooooo. Follow mah boy Shellshock @Shellshock1122
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 06 2015 17:13 GMT
#1564
innovation's attempts to 'harass' life with drops basically never worked. life's reflex and small scale micro is just too good for that. he should have realized this and focused on the same sort of macro timing dream had with his upgrades play. would have won that last game if he didn't try to out-aggress life
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Popkiller
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
3415 Posts
March 06 2015 17:32 GMT
#1565
well done by Life, impressed he made it happen.
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
March 06 2015 19:03 GMT
#1566
Life always makes me so selfconcious about my ZvT... Ghehe.
he's really fucking good though, a new Maru v Life would be sick!
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-06 20:05:50
March 06 2015 20:03 GMT
#1567
Sick ro4. I expect ZvP finals between PartinG and Life.

Hoping MMA can smack PartinG down though. I want the Blizzcon rematch.

The similarities between Life and MMA are also cool. Both would be fighting for gsl #3.

On March 07 2015 00:03 OtherWorld wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2015 23:52 Fuell wrote:
On March 06 2015 23:51 OtherWorld wrote:
On March 06 2015 21:59 Inflicted wrote:
[image loading]

MMA defies the trend

MMA defies all trends anyway. MMA is a god and the best SC2 player over the course of SC2's history.

hahahahaha

I'm actually dead serious.


No, but really?
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
March 06 2015 20:12 GMT
#1568
I'm getting real sick of life
rip passion
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
March 06 2015 20:14 GMT
#1569
On March 07 2015 05:12 Deathstar wrote:
I'm getting real sick of life


Haven't used this in awhile:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
Melix
Profile Joined December 2010
United States89 Posts
March 06 2015 20:35 GMT
#1570
On March 07 2015 05:03 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Sick ro4. I expect ZvP finals between PartinG and Life.

Hoping MMA can smack PartinG down though. I want the Blizzcon rematch.

The similarities between Life and MMA are also cool. Both would be fighting for gsl #3.

Show nested quote +
On March 07 2015 00:03 OtherWorld wrote:
On March 06 2015 23:52 Fuell wrote:
On March 06 2015 23:51 OtherWorld wrote:
On March 06 2015 21:59 Inflicted wrote:
[image loading]

MMA defies the trend

MMA defies all trends anyway. MMA is a god and the best SC2 player over the course of SC2's history.

hahahahaha

I'm actually dead serious.


No, but really?


I suppose one thing you can say is that if MMA wins the next match that no one else would have had GSL finals appearances that covered a longer period of time. He obviously had a pretty down stretch in the middle but the fact that he's still playing at this level is quite impressive. Don't think it quite makes him the GOAT, however.
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
March 06 2015 21:01 GMT
#1571
On March 07 2015 05:03 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Sick ro4. I expect ZvP finals between PartinG and Life.

Hoping MMA can smack PartinG down though. I want the Blizzcon rematch.

The similarities between Life and MMA are also cool. Both would be fighting for gsl #3.

Show nested quote +
On March 07 2015 00:03 OtherWorld wrote:
On March 06 2015 23:52 Fuell wrote:
On March 06 2015 23:51 OtherWorld wrote:
On March 06 2015 21:59 Inflicted wrote:
[image loading]

MMA defies the trend

MMA defies all trends anyway. MMA is a god and the best SC2 player over the course of SC2's history.

hahahahaha

I'm actually dead serious.


No, but really?

Really.
Do you know of many pro players who were among the best players in 2011 and who still are now? Do you know of many pro players who managed to come back from a downfall similar to MMA's when SlayerS disbanded? Do you know of many pro players who made the Ro4 of Code S post-KeSPA switch while not being on a Korean team, that is, not having an armada of teammates analyzing your next opponent's playstyle for you to help you prepare? Do you know of many pro players who have the mindset of a warrior, a real warrior?
MMA is a monster, a straight up monster. Is he the GOAT? We can't say yet, because many things can still happen in SC2. Is he, right now, the best player of SC2's history? I say yes.
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18712 Posts
March 06 2015 21:09 GMT
#1572
MMA is definitely the Nada of SC2.
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
March 06 2015 21:15 GMT
#1573
On March 07 2015 05:35 Melix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2015 05:03 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Sick ro4. I expect ZvP finals between PartinG and Life.

Hoping MMA can smack PartinG down though. I want the Blizzcon rematch.

The similarities between Life and MMA are also cool. Both would be fighting for gsl #3.

On March 07 2015 00:03 OtherWorld wrote:
On March 06 2015 23:52 Fuell wrote:
On March 06 2015 23:51 OtherWorld wrote:
On March 06 2015 21:59 Inflicted wrote:
[image loading]

MMA defies the trend

MMA defies all trends anyway. MMA is a god and the best SC2 player over the course of SC2's history.

hahahahaha

I'm actually dead serious.


No, but really?


I suppose one thing you can say is that if MMA wins the next match that no one else would have had GSL finals appearances that covered a longer period of time. He obviously had a pretty down stretch in the middle but the fact that he's still playing at this level is quite impressive. Don't think it quite makes him the GOAT, however.


There isn't really a GOAT for all of SC2 anyways. Mvp is certainly the GOAT of WoL, but over all of SC2 (from WoL's release to today) there isn't a consensus GOAT anymore.

What is cool about MMA is his longevity - he's definitely had his up and downs but the fact that he's won a premier each year since 2011 is pretty crazy. It's now spring 2015, and the guy is still competing at the highest level. He's outlasted most of his rivals from 2011 (Polt is probably the exception, unless someone else can remind).

It's pretty cool to see a bit of constancy in a scene that changes so quickly.
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
March 06 2015 21:35 GMT
#1574
On March 07 2015 06:01 OtherWorld wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2015 05:03 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Sick ro4. I expect ZvP finals between PartinG and Life.

Hoping MMA can smack PartinG down though. I want the Blizzcon rematch.

The similarities between Life and MMA are also cool. Both would be fighting for gsl #3.

On March 07 2015 00:03 OtherWorld wrote:
On March 06 2015 23:52 Fuell wrote:
On March 06 2015 23:51 OtherWorld wrote:
On March 06 2015 21:59 Inflicted wrote:
[image loading]

MMA defies the trend

MMA defies all trends anyway. MMA is a god and the best SC2 player over the course of SC2's history.

hahahahaha

I'm actually dead serious.


No, but really?

Really.
Do you know of many pro players who were among the best players in 2011 and who still are now? Do you know of many pro players who managed to come back from a downfall similar to MMA's when SlayerS disbanded? Do you know of many pro players who made the Ro4 of Code S post-KeSPA switch while not being on a Korean team, that is, not having an armada of teammates analyzing your next opponent's playstyle for you to help you prepare? Do you know of many pro players who have the mindset of a warrior, a real warrior?
MMA is a monster, a straight up monster. Is he the GOAT? We can't say yet, because many things can still happen in SC2. Is he, right now, the best player of SC2's history? I say yes.


MC still makes tournament runs, if anything he makes runs more frequently than MMA.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-06 21:48:20
March 06 2015 21:47 GMT
#1575
MMA is probably in the top 5 of all-time greats but even being #3 is out of the question for me. He's competing with MC and DRG for the #4-6 slots imo. Could change substantially if he wins this season.

My top 10 in descending order:

Mvp
Life
Taeja
MMA/DRG/MC (this is a hard call)
Bogus
Polt
Zest
Nestea

Do you know of many pro players who were among the best players in 2011 and who still are now


Bomber, Taeja, Marineking, DRG, Leenock, Gumiho, Curious, MC, and Polt. Some might even argue for PartinG as he had just sprung up at the tail end of 2011, though he didn't really turn heads until the next season in 2012. ForGG might also be a stretch >_>

Do you know of many pro players who managed to come back from a downfall similar to MMA's when SlayerS disbanded?


I'd say he actually loses points for his long period of irrelevancy post-Slayers. Whereas someone like Mvp overcame real obstacles both in terms of balance and his health.

Do you know of many pro players who made the Ro4 of Code S post-KeSPA switch while not being on a Korean team


Time will tell. Most of the Koreans on non-Korea teams are coming home from their payday WCS regions. As I expected they're doing fine. Although, MMA is currently in the ro4 against a fellow non-Korean team player in PartinG. Meanwhile, Leenock and Super came close in NSSL. DRG came close last season despite having no team.
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
Darkhorse
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States23455 Posts
March 06 2015 21:55 GMT
#1576
Ya'll are silly as hell. I made a top 10 all time list some time ago but the main thing is Mvp is GOAT. You can try to argue with me but...

[image loading]
WriterRecently Necro'd (?)
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
March 06 2015 21:55 GMT
#1577
On March 07 2015 06:47 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
MMA is probably in the top 5 of all-time greats but even being #3 is out of the question for me. He's competing with MC and DRG for the #4-6 slots imo. Could change substantially if he wins this season.

My top 10 in descending order:

Mvp
Life
Taeja
MMA/DRG/MC (this is a hard call)
Bogus
Polt
Zest
Nestea

Show nested quote +
Do you know of many pro players who were among the best players in 2011 and who still are now


Bomber, Taeja, Marineking, DRG, Leenock, Gumiho, Curious, MC, and Polt. Some might even argue for PartinG as he had just sprung up at the tail end of 2011, though he didn't really turn heads until the next season in 2012. ForGG might also be a stretch >_>

Show nested quote +
Do you know of many pro players who managed to come back from a downfall similar to MMA's when SlayerS disbanded?


I'd say he actually loses points for his long period of irrelevancy post-Slayers. Whereas someone like Mvp overcame real obstacles both in terms of balance and his health.

Show nested quote +
Do you know of many pro players who made the Ro4 of Code S post-KeSPA switch while not being on a Korean team


Time will tell. Most of the Koreans on non-Korea teams are coming home from their payday WCS regions. As I expected they're doing fine. Although, MMA is currently in the ro4 against a fellow non-Korean team player in PartinG. Meanwhile, Leenock and Super came close in NSSL. DRG came close last season despite having no team.


DRG? I feel like he hasn't won enough premier titles (only 3 titles) to be compared to MMA (8) or MC (6). I think otherwise your top 5 is pretty reasonable though
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
SackOfWetMice
Profile Joined October 2014
United States288 Posts
March 06 2015 21:57 GMT
#1578
On March 07 2015 06:47 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
MMA is probably in the top 5 of all-time greats but even being #3 is out of the question for me. He's competing with MC and DRG for the #4-6 slots imo. Could change substantially if he wins this season.

My top 10 in descending order:

Mvp
Life
Taeja
MMA/DRG/MC (this is a hard call)
Bogus
Polt
Zest
Nestea

Lol wut?

How does Zest even belong on this list? Someone who only ever did anything when GSL was basically all Protoss, Protoss had just been buffed in a patch, and PvP was his best matchup. Outside of that short period of success, he hasn't even been 'good,' or even mediocre.

He doesn't belong anwyhere near a list with Mvp, Life, Nestea, MC, DRG, MMA, etc...those are all players who were good over a long period of time, not ones who 'spiked' briefly when their race got buffed in a patch, and returned to being mediocre after Terrans were no longer extinct, like Zest.
Zest - Flash - TY - Top 3 SC2! - KT Rolster Fighting, #6 team in Proleague! - Zest #1 Proleague Ace Player!
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
March 06 2015 21:59 GMT
#1579
On March 07 2015 06:55 Darkhorse wrote:
Ya'll are silly as hell. I made a top 10 all time list some time ago but the main thing is Mvp is GOAT. You can try to argue with me but...

[image loading]


I don't think anyone reasonable is trying to argue against the fact that Mvp is the GOAT of WoL. But I think as time goes on (and players like Life continue to rack up tournament wins), I don't think it's fair to call Mvp the GOAT of all of SC2, especially if he's been largely inactive for 2 years now

Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
Cheren
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
United States2911 Posts
March 06 2015 22:21 GMT
#1580
I think Mvp is obviously the best player overall for WoL, but who is the GOAT if you only count HotS?

Poll: Best player of HotS?

Life (19)
 
50%

Zest (7)
 
18%

Someone else (say who) (4)
 
11%

Innovation (3)
 
8%

soO (3)
 
8%

Taeja (2)
 
5%

38 total votes

Your vote: Best player of HotS?

(Vote): Life
(Vote): Innovation
(Vote): Taeja
(Vote): Zest
(Vote): soO
(Vote): Someone else (say who)



My vote goes to Life with Innovation being inches behind.
Prev 1 77 78 79 80 81 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 28m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft36
SpeCial 26
Temp0 11
StarCraft: Brood War
HiyA 80
League of Legends
Doublelift3373
Counter-Strike
summit1g6141
minikerr43
Super Smash Bros
PPMD25
Other Games
gofns16302
tarik_tv5099
Day[9].tv736
shahzam405
XaKoH 253
ToD244
elazer203
C9.Mang0203
NeuroSwarm89
ViBE54
Trikslyr47
SteadfastSC36
JuggernautJason18
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 110
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 10
• HerbMon 8
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2820
Other Games
• Day9tv736
• Shiphtur357
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
28m
Escore
10h 28m
CrankTV Team League
11h 28m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
12h 28m
Big Brain Bouts
16h 28m
Soulspirit vs goblin
TriGGeR vs Bunny
OSC
22h 28m
Korean StarCraft League
1d 3h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 4h
RSL Revival
1d 9h
Serral vs SHIN
herO vs Solar
Online Event
1d 15h
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Clem vs ByuN
Rogue vs Lambo
OSC
2 days
WardiTV Weekly
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
INu's Battles
4 days
Cure vs herO
ByuN vs Rogue
PiGosaur Cup
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
Patches Events
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-07-22
HSC XXIX
Eternal Conflict S2 E3

Ongoing

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
SCTL 2026 Spring
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W4
ASL S22 SEASON OPEN Day 2
Escore Tournament S3: W5
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #2
CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.